Flights used for pilot training
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Flights used for pilot training
As humble SLF can I ask the following question of those in the know.
I ask as I have been following the Turkish Airlines crash in Amsterdam , having flown that route from Istanbul only a few weeks ago in the 1st row, a part of the fuselage in which many people suffered injuries
What are the criteria that determine at what stage of training a pilot can and will occupy a driving seat on a commercial airline carrying passengers. Does this vary by airline ?
Thanks in advance
Mike
I ask as I have been following the Turkish Airlines crash in Amsterdam , having flown that route from Istanbul only a few weeks ago in the 1st row, a part of the fuselage in which many people suffered injuries
What are the criteria that determine at what stage of training a pilot can and will occupy a driving seat on a commercial airline carrying passengers. Does this vary by airline ?
Thanks in advance
Mike
PPRuNe Handmaiden
After the type rating (specific simulator training & ground school) and the 4-6 circuits in the aeroplane (if required).
Depending on the airline and the type of programme, this can all happen after flight training. So, your First Officer could have a total of 250 hours or so.
Depending on the airline and the type of programme, this can all happen after flight training. So, your First Officer could have a total of 250 hours or so.
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What are the criteria that determine at what stage of training a pilot can and will occupy a driving seat on a commercial airline carrying passengers.
You can find it somewhere on the CAA website under flight crew licensing. Its about 200 hours total flight time (some of those hours have to be a certain type ie as Pilot in command, though that can be as pilot of a single piston engined a/c).
Though they will also have done a type rating on that particuar a/c which will involve at least 50 hours in the simulator. Then base training is required, where you do at least 6 touch and gos (goes?).
They'll then start line training, flying with a line training captain (extra training required for the captain) and another pilot (probably an f/o) on the jumpseat. This pilot is there as a back up in case the captain and training f/o miss anything due to the training that is going on, or, in the worst case senario, in case the training f/o is deemed not up to standard, the jumpseat f/o would continue the flight.
After a certain number of flights the jumpseat f/o will no longer be required as the training f/o is deemed to be of a standard to be able conduct the safe operation of the flight in case of the captains incapacitation, though the training will continue until at least another number of flights until they pass a line check and then become a normal f/o.
Does this vary by airline ?
Sort of, above is the legal minimum, however some companies will only employ pilots with a certain no of hours (eg 1000).
You can find it somewhere on the CAA website under flight crew licensing. Its about 200 hours total flight time (some of those hours have to be a certain type ie as Pilot in command, though that can be as pilot of a single piston engined a/c).
Though they will also have done a type rating on that particuar a/c which will involve at least 50 hours in the simulator. Then base training is required, where you do at least 6 touch and gos (goes?).
They'll then start line training, flying with a line training captain (extra training required for the captain) and another pilot (probably an f/o) on the jumpseat. This pilot is there as a back up in case the captain and training f/o miss anything due to the training that is going on, or, in the worst case senario, in case the training f/o is deemed not up to standard, the jumpseat f/o would continue the flight.
After a certain number of flights the jumpseat f/o will no longer be required as the training f/o is deemed to be of a standard to be able conduct the safe operation of the flight in case of the captains incapacitation, though the training will continue until at least another number of flights until they pass a line check and then become a normal f/o.
Does this vary by airline ?
Sort of, above is the legal minimum, however some companies will only employ pilots with a certain no of hours (eg 1000).
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It's not uncommon (in Europe at least) to have freshly licenced pilots in the Co-jo seat - meaing they have around 200-250 hours in light singles and twins.
Fine for normal ops, but when something goes wrong, not even a good training programme will make up for a lack of exerience.
You get what you pay for. Experienced pilots expect (or demand/command) a good salary. Low cost carriers have difficulty attracting and retaining experience due to salary levels. If you pay 3 cents (plus tax) for your flight, don't expect the F/O so be Wilber Wright.
Strangely, most of the flying public expect some sort of safety and service for their hard earned 3 cents
Fine for normal ops, but when something goes wrong, not even a good training programme will make up for a lack of exerience.
You get what you pay for. Experienced pilots expect (or demand/command) a good salary. Low cost carriers have difficulty attracting and retaining experience due to salary levels. If you pay 3 cents (plus tax) for your flight, don't expect the F/O so be Wilber Wright.
Strangely, most of the flying public expect some sort of safety and service for their hard earned 3 cents
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I honestly believe that "pilot training", or "pilot learning to fly", and "pilot with no experience" is widely exploited by the public and the news media. There are many "training" classifications,
xxx
Compare the training people do, to learn to drive a car. There are the lessons in classrooms about the driving code, then handling a car on the road, then in town. That is what I call "driver training". But, if you own and drive a Ford Escort, live in Woking, and just got a new job as a delivery driver in a small van and it is your first morning on the job, and being accompanied by an experienced driver for a delivery to Crawley, driving on the M25, shall we say that you are "learning to drive"...? Obviously not. You just learn to handle a different vehicule, maybe different size and weight than your Escort. Your van does not have a blue/white "L" square emblem to indicate you learn...
xxx
This compares to the training many pilots do "on revenue flights", with the airlines. and yes, call it "training", but the pilot was a qualified and experience pilot, acquiring experience to an airplane new to him, however, he had completed the initial training and qualification to fly that aircraft, ground school, simulator, and maybe a few landings.
xxx
When I flew the 747 the first time, I had never flown a 747 before. I had completed 3 weeks of training in classrooms and simulator, if I recall, was some 12 hours of simulator training, a 2 hours simulator check for type rating and a 4 hours "LOFT" program (line oriented flight training) in simulator.
xxx
Then a week later, I had my first flight in the 747, my check captain occupied the RHS. We were at JFK airport, going to Frankfurt. There was NO other pilot except him, myself, and our flight engineer. The only difficulty (if any) was taxiing the huge airplane on the taxiways, and the advice and recommendations of the check captain were quite welcome. Once the airplane got "lined up" on 31-L, the rest was easy. There were some 300 passengers aboard, probably all would have been terrified at the idea that this would be my very first takeoff and landing with a 747. I recall my first landing in Frankfurt, smooth and gentle (as all 747 landings are), and I do not recall the check-captain hands reaching for a correction on the flight controls. The next days, I flew back to JFK, then did a flight to Paris CDG and my training was completed, The check-captain shook hands with me, "you are on your own, congratulations"...
xxx
Do not ever consider that "pilot trainees" flying on revenue flights with passengers a "student pilots". They are fully qualified pilots just acquiring additional practice, with a qualified check-captain. An "additional" F/O is a practice with THY. It was not with some airlines I flew with.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Compare the training people do, to learn to drive a car. There are the lessons in classrooms about the driving code, then handling a car on the road, then in town. That is what I call "driver training". But, if you own and drive a Ford Escort, live in Woking, and just got a new job as a delivery driver in a small van and it is your first morning on the job, and being accompanied by an experienced driver for a delivery to Crawley, driving on the M25, shall we say that you are "learning to drive"...? Obviously not. You just learn to handle a different vehicule, maybe different size and weight than your Escort. Your van does not have a blue/white "L" square emblem to indicate you learn...
xxx
This compares to the training many pilots do "on revenue flights", with the airlines. and yes, call it "training", but the pilot was a qualified and experience pilot, acquiring experience to an airplane new to him, however, he had completed the initial training and qualification to fly that aircraft, ground school, simulator, and maybe a few landings.
xxx
When I flew the 747 the first time, I had never flown a 747 before. I had completed 3 weeks of training in classrooms and simulator, if I recall, was some 12 hours of simulator training, a 2 hours simulator check for type rating and a 4 hours "LOFT" program (line oriented flight training) in simulator.
xxx
Then a week later, I had my first flight in the 747, my check captain occupied the RHS. We were at JFK airport, going to Frankfurt. There was NO other pilot except him, myself, and our flight engineer. The only difficulty (if any) was taxiing the huge airplane on the taxiways, and the advice and recommendations of the check captain were quite welcome. Once the airplane got "lined up" on 31-L, the rest was easy. There were some 300 passengers aboard, probably all would have been terrified at the idea that this would be my very first takeoff and landing with a 747. I recall my first landing in Frankfurt, smooth and gentle (as all 747 landings are), and I do not recall the check-captain hands reaching for a correction on the flight controls. The next days, I flew back to JFK, then did a flight to Paris CDG and my training was completed, The check-captain shook hands with me, "you are on your own, congratulations"...
xxx
Do not ever consider that "pilot trainees" flying on revenue flights with passengers a "student pilots". They are fully qualified pilots just acquiring additional practice, with a qualified check-captain. An "additional" F/O is a practice with THY. It was not with some airlines I flew with.
xxx
Happy contrails
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Very naive views to suggest that only low cost carriers employ 250 hour pilots to cut costs. How on earth do you think 'sponsored' pilots from British Airways etc (when the scheme was operated) gained experience? They were low hour pilots in a jet. Happens in any country or airline with sponsored pilots, and has been for many, many years.
