UK Borders - Shaming
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It's called the Common Travel Area (CTA) - there is no immigration requirement or need to carry a passport as you are deemed, if you are a foreign national, to have already been seen by the Guards or a UK IO, either or can authorise onward travel to the UK. If you are a Brit Cit, why would you go through immigration if it is a journey conducted within the CTA anyway? Moves are afoot to review this arrangement though.
UK Border Agency | Strengthening the common travel area
The checks in the part of the port you describe are conducted by the Cop's, pax do not go through the main hall as they may become mixed up with arriving international passengers.
I take the point that the immigration hall may be empty though but this is a Police requirement and that's that. The immigration component of UKBA has no requirement to see you as a consequence of the existence of the CTA, if you are directed back to the other channel it's because it's a Police requirement.
UK Border Agency | Strengthening the common travel area
The checks in the part of the port you describe are conducted by the Cop's, pax do not go through the main hall as they may become mixed up with arriving international passengers.
I take the point that the immigration hall may be empty though but this is a Police requirement and that's that. The immigration component of UKBA has no requirement to see you as a consequence of the existence of the CTA, if you are directed back to the other channel it's because it's a Police requirement.
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Thanks for the clarification. I am aware of the proposed change to the CTA and this may alleviate this situation at LGW if we all have to go through the main Border Control. Most (all?) pax have to travel with passports now anyway between UK/ROI when travelling by air to satisfy airline security (certainly using online checkin which most now do). In the meantime, I would hope that
(a) airlines could warn arriving pax they need their boarding card ready rather than a passport (although occasionally they check both, just to confuse everyone a bit more)
(b) LGW could go mad and put a second person on the domestic/ROI arrivals channel when it's busy....
(a) airlines could warn arriving pax they need their boarding card ready rather than a passport (although occasionally they check both, just to confuse everyone a bit more)
(b) LGW could go mad and put a second person on the domestic/ROI arrivals channel when it's busy....
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Personally, I've seen as many photo driving licences as passports in the CTA channel.
Don't know/care what airlines do with boarding cards TBH and it's up to the Rozzers how many officers they choose to place in the channel rather than the airport. Sometimes they attend and sometimes they don't. Depends what's on Sky Sports I suppose.
(That was a joke before anyone get's their knickers knotted and rants about taxpayers, value for money, expenses, pensions, no-one getting sacked in the public sector when everyone else in the private sector is because everyone in the know knows the cops only have Setanta Sport in their office)
Don't know/care what airlines do with boarding cards TBH and it's up to the Rozzers how many officers they choose to place in the channel rather than the airport. Sometimes they attend and sometimes they don't. Depends what's on Sky Sports I suppose.
(That was a joke before anyone get's their knickers knotted and rants about taxpayers, value for money, expenses, pensions, no-one getting sacked in the public sector when everyone else in the private sector is because everyone in the know knows the cops only have Setanta Sport in their office)
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OMG!!!! I have caused a major uprising!!! I have been away (through Geneva which was a delight by the way) and come back to this!!!
The information I gave came through the party it happened to. I past it on exactly as it was said to me. I have nothing to gain from lying as I wanted to get some advice. I have nothing personal against what our immigration officers do and I am glad they are beginning to do the job they should have done 20 years ago then this country wouldn't be in the mess it is in today!! Its just a shame it seems to be towards the wrong people because only last night I was watching a programme about 3 men over here illegally dealing in drugs and fraud....guess what they got in through Heathrow....was that because the UKBA were too busy sending young girls with bikini's in their cases and a dream in their hearts back to their country of origin??? I find it quite laughable!!!
However to answer: A teired accommodation system for illegal immigrants (remembering of course this young lady was coming on holiday and didn't see herself as illegal) . So you think it is ok for a young girl who isn't carrying drugs, firearms and is not of any threat to this nation whatsoever to be detained in a room without any facilities, overnight, expected to sleep upright in a chair having just done 10 hours on a flight with all the stress involved with that and then interviewed on and off for another 7 hours, terrified, tired and hungry! I don't think being given a bed for the night would be out of the way?? Even someone "banged up" in a police station gets the privilege of one phone call, a solicitor, food, drink and a BED!!
The truck was metal with a locked cage and all 11 were transported standing up in it to be tested for TB - good job no one coughed she might have gone back home with more than a mark in her passport!
My son did answer the questions exactly right and this was cofirmed to him however he told the officer that his girlfriend had picked her clothes up from her house in one part of the city where she lives but it turned out she told them she picked up her clothes from her mum's. Actually she did both but the officer told my son this constituted a lie. Excuse me did I get this right....what the hell does where she pick her clothes up from have to do with the security of our borders????
This was after they hadn't produced the paper ticket, however their flight information was electronically tagged to their passport. Please don't tell me its not because my son entered the States with no paper return ticket just the reservation document which he wasn't asked to produce because the officer read out his return date to him so that must have been picked up when his passport was scanned. They also told my sons girlfriend at Heathrow that they needed her passport again just to re-check her return flight.
"qwertyplop" if you weren't so damed hell bent on proving your amazing use of the queens English in your stiff upper lip manner you might actually see it from the point of the common man who is trying to say that this young girl did not deserve this treatment. She was treated exactly the same way as some drug dealer about to try and enter our country to distribute his/her wares to our unsuspecting children ~ NO actually she was treated worse because if someone had arrived to do that they probably would have been "Banged up" in a cell overnight that had a dam bed in it. That's what I mean about Human Rights there is a difference between illegal immigrants who come here with intent and illegal immigrants who come here not knowing that they are!!!
She is now stuck with this mark in her passport and it is going to cause her great trouble where ever she travels and I cannot help but feel so sorry for this poor young girl because at her age thats exactly what she should be doing. Exploring this great world of ours and feeling the freedom of youth to be able to do that - now she is labelled a criminal because she picked up her clothes from the wrong home and relied on the great powers of our technology to get her to into a country without a piece of paper which we are all being told to save on these days thats why we are all told we are going electronic................
Why can't we go back to being issued with proper airline tickets? They were so much nicer. They made you feel like you'd purchased something very special and at least you got all the right information with them as well. Paperless - huh what a load of Green twaddle at the end of the day they still ask for the paperwork
Still, maybe the best thing happened to her in the end - I don't think Britain is so great anymore I wouldn't come here given the choice knowing what I know - there are much nicer places in the world and actually she lives in one of them - so yes, why on earth would they think she would want to stay here?????
YES why did I come to this site for pilots just to almost be called nothing less than a liar?? The only one that actually makes any sense is CABOT because he obviously understands the art of seeing both sides even though only one side is offered.
I give up, all I wanted was some simple advice to find out if this has ever happened to anyone before and if so where can I go to complain? Instead I just get shouted down for no reason so I will leave you lot to keep arguing, it seems that's all you come on here for and what you do best I'm glad I gave you something more to argue about ~ do you ever run out of subjects?? - Obviously when you are not flying you have nothing better to do than get down to a good old banter with each!!
Thanks to those that did help.
Foxxy
The information I gave came through the party it happened to. I past it on exactly as it was said to me. I have nothing to gain from lying as I wanted to get some advice. I have nothing personal against what our immigration officers do and I am glad they are beginning to do the job they should have done 20 years ago then this country wouldn't be in the mess it is in today!! Its just a shame it seems to be towards the wrong people because only last night I was watching a programme about 3 men over here illegally dealing in drugs and fraud....guess what they got in through Heathrow....was that because the UKBA were too busy sending young girls with bikini's in their cases and a dream in their hearts back to their country of origin??? I find it quite laughable!!!
However to answer: A teired accommodation system for illegal immigrants (remembering of course this young lady was coming on holiday and didn't see herself as illegal) . So you think it is ok for a young girl who isn't carrying drugs, firearms and is not of any threat to this nation whatsoever to be detained in a room without any facilities, overnight, expected to sleep upright in a chair having just done 10 hours on a flight with all the stress involved with that and then interviewed on and off for another 7 hours, terrified, tired and hungry! I don't think being given a bed for the night would be out of the way?? Even someone "banged up" in a police station gets the privilege of one phone call, a solicitor, food, drink and a BED!!
The truck was metal with a locked cage and all 11 were transported standing up in it to be tested for TB - good job no one coughed she might have gone back home with more than a mark in her passport!
My son did answer the questions exactly right and this was cofirmed to him however he told the officer that his girlfriend had picked her clothes up from her house in one part of the city where she lives but it turned out she told them she picked up her clothes from her mum's. Actually she did both but the officer told my son this constituted a lie. Excuse me did I get this right....what the hell does where she pick her clothes up from have to do with the security of our borders????
This was after they hadn't produced the paper ticket, however their flight information was electronically tagged to their passport. Please don't tell me its not because my son entered the States with no paper return ticket just the reservation document which he wasn't asked to produce because the officer read out his return date to him so that must have been picked up when his passport was scanned. They also told my sons girlfriend at Heathrow that they needed her passport again just to re-check her return flight.
"qwertyplop" if you weren't so damed hell bent on proving your amazing use of the queens English in your stiff upper lip manner you might actually see it from the point of the common man who is trying to say that this young girl did not deserve this treatment. She was treated exactly the same way as some drug dealer about to try and enter our country to distribute his/her wares to our unsuspecting children ~ NO actually she was treated worse because if someone had arrived to do that they probably would have been "Banged up" in a cell overnight that had a dam bed in it. That's what I mean about Human Rights there is a difference between illegal immigrants who come here with intent and illegal immigrants who come here not knowing that they are!!!
She is now stuck with this mark in her passport and it is going to cause her great trouble where ever she travels and I cannot help but feel so sorry for this poor young girl because at her age thats exactly what she should be doing. Exploring this great world of ours and feeling the freedom of youth to be able to do that - now she is labelled a criminal because she picked up her clothes from the wrong home and relied on the great powers of our technology to get her to into a country without a piece of paper which we are all being told to save on these days thats why we are all told we are going electronic................
Why can't we go back to being issued with proper airline tickets? They were so much nicer. They made you feel like you'd purchased something very special and at least you got all the right information with them as well. Paperless - huh what a load of Green twaddle at the end of the day they still ask for the paperwork
Still, maybe the best thing happened to her in the end - I don't think Britain is so great anymore I wouldn't come here given the choice knowing what I know - there are much nicer places in the world and actually she lives in one of them - so yes, why on earth would they think she would want to stay here?????
YES why did I come to this site for pilots just to almost be called nothing less than a liar?? The only one that actually makes any sense is CABOT because he obviously understands the art of seeing both sides even though only one side is offered.
I give up, all I wanted was some simple advice to find out if this has ever happened to anyone before and if so where can I go to complain? Instead I just get shouted down for no reason so I will leave you lot to keep arguing, it seems that's all you come on here for and what you do best I'm glad I gave you something more to argue about ~ do you ever run out of subjects?? - Obviously when you are not flying you have nothing better to do than get down to a good old banter with each!!
Thanks to those that did help.
Foxxy
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I'm not disagreeing with you Foxxy, I would have been very happy to have a chat about general principles but I don't engage with people who seemingly are content with throwing insulting names around and have a default position of 'Rude'.
Last edited by qwertyplop; 7th Apr 2009 at 08:05.
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Since starting this thread I have been through T4 twice and, last night through LGW South Terminal at 1720 or so on the way back to UK. I've also used Bristol, Exeter and Glasgow.
T4 remains the badly-organised, badly-run mess that caused me to rant on in the first place.
LGW South Terminal, yesterday, made T4 look like the epitome of a well-run airport.
Six or seven hundred people herded into a wide, poorly-lit corridor, surrounded by scaffolding and plastic. At the end of this queue, slowly shuffling along, there was a sharp right turn. One channel, it turned out, was for people from CI and Ireland, who appeared to be being let through a doorway, one by one, by an official. But it was difficult in the crush to see what was really going on. However, those trapped in the mass of people had no way of knowing that they should be trying to go that way if they came from those places, so they simply stayed in the general mass and shuffled towards the passport check, only to be sent back to square 1 when they got there.
There were 2 out of 8 or 10 channels manned for people arriving from the EU and the rest of the world.
Chaos all round. Welcome to broken Britain.
The main hall was also held up by scaffolding, and was poorly lit.
The person in charge from UK Borders was simply telling people that he had not got enough staff and what was he supposed to do about that. He had 3 stripes, whatever that means.
As at T4, the fault lies equally with the BAA for thinking that such disgraceful facilities are acceptable in one tof the UK's supposedly gateway airports, and with the Borders agency for such appalling manning. The excuse of "not enough money, not enough staff" doesn't wash. The agency gets enough money; it uses it incompetently and then produces the mantra of "we need more" when told to perform better. But then the whole of the UK Civil Service does that.
T4 remains the badly-organised, badly-run mess that caused me to rant on in the first place.
LGW South Terminal, yesterday, made T4 look like the epitome of a well-run airport.
Six or seven hundred people herded into a wide, poorly-lit corridor, surrounded by scaffolding and plastic. At the end of this queue, slowly shuffling along, there was a sharp right turn. One channel, it turned out, was for people from CI and Ireland, who appeared to be being let through a doorway, one by one, by an official. But it was difficult in the crush to see what was really going on. However, those trapped in the mass of people had no way of knowing that they should be trying to go that way if they came from those places, so they simply stayed in the general mass and shuffled towards the passport check, only to be sent back to square 1 when they got there.
There were 2 out of 8 or 10 channels manned for people arriving from the EU and the rest of the world.
Chaos all round. Welcome to broken Britain.
The main hall was also held up by scaffolding, and was poorly lit.
The person in charge from UK Borders was simply telling people that he had not got enough staff and what was he supposed to do about that. He had 3 stripes, whatever that means.
As at T4, the fault lies equally with the BAA for thinking that such disgraceful facilities are acceptable in one tof the UK's supposedly gateway airports, and with the Borders agency for such appalling manning. The excuse of "not enough money, not enough staff" doesn't wash. The agency gets enough money; it uses it incompetently and then produces the mantra of "we need more" when told to perform better. But then the whole of the UK Civil Service does that.
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Couldn't agree more - absolute bl00dy shambles at LGW South, typifying the UK public service attitude. Welcome to Broken Britain indeed.
Check out what's being said here:
http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airpo...control-2.html
If they make it any easier for ne'er-do-wells to get in whilst refusing to have a joined up airline/airport operator/immigration agency policy towards arrivals, they might as well start selling vats of hydrogen peroxide at the duty free shop after customs.
Check out what's being said here:
http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airpo...control-2.html
If they make it any easier for ne'er-do-wells to get in whilst refusing to have a joined up airline/airport operator/immigration agency policy towards arrivals, they might as well start selling vats of hydrogen peroxide at the duty free shop after customs.
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Fiction based on nothing in particular I'm afraid. Could either of you give me the benefit of your detailed understanding of the arrangements and laws governing the layout and execution of the controls based upon your little window of exposure to those controls?
I'm fascinated as it's nothing I've ever seen.
I'm fascinated as it's nothing I've ever seen.
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Nothing if not predictable, qwertyplop.
For the umpteenth time, can you not get in into your head that I and many others are not complaining about, not even talking about the laws that govern the immigration process. They are like death and taxes, inevitable, even if they actually achieve very little.
It's the absolutely filthy, badly maintained, badly laid out and badly managed premises in which the process is carried out that are so unnecessary, as is the bad management of the manning of these facilities.
Can you ever understand that? You do NOT have to go on and on about how necessary the process is. That is not the issue.
And don't you dare to assume, you arrogant .............whatever, that you know more about it than another poster. You have shown clearly that you have a very limited perspective.
Afterthought; what really riles me is that even in an arrivals channel at BAA airports, after you have endured the c**p that's thrown at you on the way through, they still put one of their stupid shops in the way as you exit from Customs. WHY? Who the hell thinks, "Ah, I'll just pick up some over-priced alcohol, just what I need after taking nearly an hour to get through Immigration and collect a bag". Jeeesus.
For the umpteenth time, can you not get in into your head that I and many others are not complaining about, not even talking about the laws that govern the immigration process. They are like death and taxes, inevitable, even if they actually achieve very little.
It's the absolutely filthy, badly maintained, badly laid out and badly managed premises in which the process is carried out that are so unnecessary, as is the bad management of the manning of these facilities.
Can you ever understand that? You do NOT have to go on and on about how necessary the process is. That is not the issue.
And don't you dare to assume, you arrogant .............whatever, that you know more about it than another poster. You have shown clearly that you have a very limited perspective.
Afterthought; what really riles me is that even in an arrivals channel at BAA airports, after you have endured the c**p that's thrown at you on the way through, they still put one of their stupid shops in the way as you exit from Customs. WHY? Who the hell thinks, "Ah, I'll just pick up some over-priced alcohol, just what I need after taking nearly an hour to get through Immigration and collect a bag". Jeeesus.
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Another afterthought....
A few years ago I gave a friend I happened to run into in the chaos at LGW before Immigration my boarding card from Jersey, as he was in a hurry having just landed from the Middle East. He went through that Channel, and I went through the passport channel.
Can you still do that? Or is it prevented by qwertyplop's magic and mystical one-way mirrors and invisible controls? I do know that many of the passengers from Ireland last night simply showed their passports to get through that channel rather than confront the scrum to go the other way, because I was in the middle of a group that did just that, so I guess it still works the other way round as well, if you have a boarding pass. It would be useful to know.
A few years ago I gave a friend I happened to run into in the chaos at LGW before Immigration my boarding card from Jersey, as he was in a hurry having just landed from the Middle East. He went through that Channel, and I went through the passport channel.
Can you still do that? Or is it prevented by qwertyplop's magic and mystical one-way mirrors and invisible controls? I do know that many of the passengers from Ireland last night simply showed their passports to get through that channel rather than confront the scrum to go the other way, because I was in the middle of a group that did just that, so I guess it still works the other way round as well, if you have a boarding pass. It would be useful to know.
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Capot, all very interesting but lost on me the second you go into 'rude' mode. If this is how you behave towards total strangers in a public forum then perhaps you reap a little of what you sow.
I happily do assume I know more about it than you, I understand everything you say but your misinformed diatribe and wide of the mark insults see to it that I can't take you all that seriously. I conduct the controls and I also travel internationally, therefore of course it follows that I know more than you. No-one is that misinformed surely but hey, the little world of you is a very pleasant place to spend time I guess?
Like I said before, everything that's said here is informative and worthwhile so far as I'm concerned. Travellers like you are of no interest to me professionally and I'd rather not have to look at you at all if I'm honest, there are bigger fish to fry. I hope e-Borders gives you the relief you seek.
What a shame that we could not have an informative and enjoyable narrative running through this thread, we agree on so much actually.
Good day to you.
I happily do assume I know more about it than you, I understand everything you say but your misinformed diatribe and wide of the mark insults see to it that I can't take you all that seriously. I conduct the controls and I also travel internationally, therefore of course it follows that I know more than you. No-one is that misinformed surely but hey, the little world of you is a very pleasant place to spend time I guess?
Like I said before, everything that's said here is informative and worthwhile so far as I'm concerned. Travellers like you are of no interest to me professionally and I'd rather not have to look at you at all if I'm honest, there are bigger fish to fry. I hope e-Borders gives you the relief you seek.
What a shame that we could not have an informative and enjoyable narrative running through this thread, we agree on so much actually.
Good day to you.
Last edited by qwertyplop; 9th Apr 2009 at 21:17.
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I hope e-Borders gives you the relief you seek.
When?
I'll make no further comment on immigration issues generally as I'm not interested in the policy. I know that UKBA are not responsible for the CTA arrivals scrum at 2.30pm every day and I would raise it with a police officer if I'd ever seen one, unless the very polite, elderly gentlemen, in mufti who normally mans the channel is undercover..
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Sometimes things happen for good reasons and those reasons are not always accessible to the general public I guess and it's something that I take for granted and don't really give a lot of thought to. There's stuff you just don't need to know. Same in all our professions I think....
Personally, I always read these types of threads as they are informative and I'm never to old or long in the tooth to learn where appropriate, may I thank everyone who debated in that spirit.
Happy Easter.
Personally, I always read these types of threads as they are informative and I'm never to old or long in the tooth to learn where appropriate, may I thank everyone who debated in that spirit.
Happy Easter.
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Qwertyplop
I accept your admonitions with as much equanimity as I can muster; you seem a little fragile about criticism but aren't we all.
What I simply do not buy is the idea you are trying to put across that the dreadful treatment meted out to arriving passengers in T4 and LGW South, to name but two BAA airports, is explained by some higher purpose that we are not allowed to know about, as the little people who should simply endure it and shut up.
All this nonsense...
is just patronising horse**** on a puerile level ("I'm in the know and you aren't, so there"), and in no way whatsoever accounts for the fact that the premises are worse than most third-world airports and the management, by BAA as well as UKBA, of their staff and the process is awful.
There simply is no plausible excuse fror the scenes which are enacted daily in these places. I take it that you are a UKBA employee, and see it as necesary to defend the indefensible, but please spare us the dark hints about unspecified things that "we don't need to know", which simply insult our intelligence.
PS I really would appreciate your advice as to whether one can still swap boarding cards before confronting Immigration controls at LGW South; it seemed very possible to me the other day, watching the way the scrum was mixing passengers from the EU, C.I. and Ireland, and - I guess - other parts of the world.
I accept your admonitions with as much equanimity as I can muster; you seem a little fragile about criticism but aren't we all.
What I simply do not buy is the idea you are trying to put across that the dreadful treatment meted out to arriving passengers in T4 and LGW South, to name but two BAA airports, is explained by some higher purpose that we are not allowed to know about, as the little people who should simply endure it and shut up.
All this nonsense...
things happen for good reasons and those reasons are not always accessible to the general public
There's stuff you just don't need to know.
There simply is no plausible excuse fror the scenes which are enacted daily in these places. I take it that you are a UKBA employee, and see it as necesary to defend the indefensible, but please spare us the dark hints about unspecified things that "we don't need to know", which simply insult our intelligence.
PS I really would appreciate your advice as to whether one can still swap boarding cards before confronting Immigration controls at LGW South; it seemed very possible to me the other day, watching the way the scrum was mixing passengers from the EU, C.I. and Ireland, and - I guess - other parts of the world.
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Seem to me there are two things here.
- stuff that affects passengers, such as poor service
- stuff that falls under the category of 'need to know'
The second should be of no concern to pax, but neither should it be used as an excuse for the appalling service delivery at the London airport, by all the players.
- stuff that affects passengers, such as poor service
- stuff that falls under the category of 'need to know'
The second should be of no concern to pax, but neither should it be used as an excuse for the appalling service delivery at the London airport, by all the players.
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FTG, I agree wholeheartedly.
I do not recognise all of Capot's perspective, although some of it rings true and despite constant reassurance that I agree with some of his/her points, he/she still fails to grasp the rudimentary principles of human interaction - I listen to you and you listen to me. We may disagree but we do it with respect.
I've tried to surmise, through engaging with him/her, just what the issue is but unfortunately he/she just reverts to bad language, rudeness and insults and telling me I know nothing while continuing to blame my employer for the poor state of every aspect of every airport he/she ever enters.
In all seriousness, I tolerate unpleasantness and rudeness no more in here than I would if we were sat in the same room together.
The fact that he/she cannot accept that things go on of which he/she need have no knowledge and may go some way to explain why staffing looks amiss to the travelling public is to demonstrate a level of ignorance and self importance that ends my interaction with him/her forthwith.
Some people.....
I do not recognise all of Capot's perspective, although some of it rings true and despite constant reassurance that I agree with some of his/her points, he/she still fails to grasp the rudimentary principles of human interaction - I listen to you and you listen to me. We may disagree but we do it with respect.
I've tried to surmise, through engaging with him/her, just what the issue is but unfortunately he/she just reverts to bad language, rudeness and insults and telling me I know nothing while continuing to blame my employer for the poor state of every aspect of every airport he/she ever enters.
In all seriousness, I tolerate unpleasantness and rudeness no more in here than I would if we were sat in the same room together.
The fact that he/she cannot accept that things go on of which he/she need have no knowledge and may go some way to explain why staffing looks amiss to the travelling public is to demonstrate a level of ignorance and self importance that ends my interaction with him/her forthwith.
Some people.....
