US1549 Ditching in Hudson River - Q & A's (Merged)
You are preaching to the converted - or the never didn't think 'that' way.
The problem is as air travel is more popular that many people are too arrogant / stupid / ignorant to listen or even attempt take safety seriously.
I recently flew from Dhaka to HK in cattle class and not for the first time was less than impressed with the (lack of) respect and attention given to the cabin crew and the safety announcements. And that isn't an observation restricted to one of the more 'interesting' routings.
The problem is as air travel is more popular that many people are too arrogant / stupid / ignorant to listen or even attempt take safety seriously.
I recently flew from Dhaka to HK in cattle class and not for the first time was less than impressed with the (lack of) respect and attention given to the cabin crew and the safety announcements. And that isn't an observation restricted to one of the more 'interesting' routings.
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Well so much for that then! We left the States last night and virtually no one paid attention to the demo. It was the usual story. "It'll never happen to me!" Well, you know what? One day, it just might! 
Another quick point, if I may? Many people were sat with their headphones plugged in to the seat socket and hanging around their neck. They couldn't understand why I asked them to remove them completely. If you do this, please think about what is going to happen in an emergency evacuation. You are going to jump up, without thinking, and either strangle yourself, or get yourself and your fellow passengers in that row, caught up in the wires. It may sound silly at the time, but there really is a valid reason for us asking you to take them off completely.
Jsl
Another quick point, if I may? Many people were sat with their headphones plugged in to the seat socket and hanging around their neck. They couldn't understand why I asked them to remove them completely. If you do this, please think about what is going to happen in an emergency evacuation. You are going to jump up, without thinking, and either strangle yourself, or get yourself and your fellow passengers in that row, caught up in the wires. It may sound silly at the time, but there really is a valid reason for us asking you to take them off completely.
Jsl
Does anyone know what happened to the overwing slides, in their role as liferafts? I heard news items "passengers standing on the wing", and in the photos I saw the slides weren't very evident.
Secondly, we have in this thread all the usual fulminations about listening to the briefing, but I wonder what how the evacuation actually went in that Airbus. We can assume that the attention paid to the briefing, before takeoff, was as per the norm. Does anyone know the answer to that, ie can anyone state the facts as opposed to rehashing uninformed press reports?
My suspicion is that it went very well, because it was very successful. If that's right, what conclusion do we draw about the briefing?
I confess to having to eat my words, like many others, about a break-up on impact being the only possible outcome in a civil jet airliner ditching, medium size and above. Even so, I cannot bring myself to call it a "water landing", one of the silliest euphamisms around at the moment.
Secondly, we have in this thread all the usual fulminations about listening to the briefing, but I wonder what how the evacuation actually went in that Airbus. We can assume that the attention paid to the briefing, before takeoff, was as per the norm. Does anyone know the answer to that, ie can anyone state the facts as opposed to rehashing uninformed press reports?
My suspicion is that it went very well, because it was very successful. If that's right, what conclusion do we draw about the briefing?
I confess to having to eat my words, like many others, about a break-up on impact being the only possible outcome in a civil jet airliner ditching, medium size and above. Even so, I cannot bring myself to call it a "water landing", one of the silliest euphamisms around at the moment.
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This has been a real wake-up call for me. I'm a pretty experienced SLF (1000+ sectors) and always pay attention for the briefing. But would I have thought to reach for the lifejacket if not told to at the time of the ditching? Hand on heart, probably not. Think I'd just GTFO.
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Had they have been on the opposite runway - would they have been turning over a nice stretch of ebb tide? And many other points. Again, not to take away from crew (flight + cabin) who proved their mettle and that they deserved their responsibilities. But luck was a huge part of this.
Ebb tide, flowing water, even choppy water- makes no difference. The Hudson is not tidal BTW!
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The starboard life raft can be seen clearly towards the end of the (Coast Guard?) video, a link to which was posted on this site. It looked to be attached to the trailing edge of the wing but I may be wrong about that as the image resolution is poor.
I, too, wonder if I'd put on my lifejacket in a situation where I was not instructed to do so but thought that a landing on water was imminent (hence my question above about life jackets in panels above passengers' heads which are obviously not accessible when seated). By the way, this is not a comment on the US Airways incident as I do not know whether any instruction was given.
Does anyone know how easy it would be to open the lifejacket container in the dark?
I, too, wonder if I'd put on my lifejacket in a situation where I was not instructed to do so but thought that a landing on water was imminent (hence my question above about life jackets in panels above passengers' heads which are obviously not accessible when seated). By the way, this is not a comment on the US Airways incident as I do not know whether any instruction was given.
Does anyone know how easy it would be to open the lifejacket container in the dark?
the unexpected
i must say now that we have had maybe a half dozen or so recent catastrophic events in the immediate or final phase of flight where the crew, and here i am gonna say very importantly the pax (SLF) were NOT expecting this, and the a/c was badly damaged/destroyed and the evacuations' were immediate and unexpected...
such as..
AIR FRANCE A340 landin over run YYZ
BA 777 LHR crash land double engine power loss on final)
RYANAIR 737 crash land CIA (doube engine bird stike on final)
IBERIA A340 UIO landing over run
CONTINENTAL 737 DEN rejected t/o
US AIR NYC A320 ditching after t/o double engine failure bird strike ?
there were NO fatalities in these accidents,
but i could go on and mention others not quite so fortunate,
GARUDA,ONE 2 GO, TACA, S7air, SUDAN, and more,
lets hope the pax really now do start taking note of the critical phase of flight, and assume maybe it may just happen to me one day and be as prepared as you can.
such as..
AIR FRANCE A340 landin over run YYZ
BA 777 LHR crash land double engine power loss on final)
RYANAIR 737 crash land CIA (doube engine bird stike on final)
IBERIA A340 UIO landing over run
CONTINENTAL 737 DEN rejected t/o
US AIR NYC A320 ditching after t/o double engine failure bird strike ?
there were NO fatalities in these accidents,
but i could go on and mention others not quite so fortunate,
GARUDA,ONE 2 GO, TACA, S7air, SUDAN, and more,
lets hope the pax really now do start taking note of the critical phase of flight, and assume maybe it may just happen to me one day and be as prepared as you can.
Last edited by rog747; 18th Jan 2009 at 23:00. Reason: more
For that to be the safety announcement would have to be carried out prior to boarding and a test taken with a minimum pass rate before being allowed ont' 'plane.
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I sometimes pay attention to the pre-flight briefing, mostly to be polite to the person performing it. The probability of actually benefiting from this briefing is insignificant in my case. US1549 doesn't change that (yet, at least). For the pre-flight briefing to be useful (for me), the following conditions will have to be met:
1) The pre-flight briefing must change, since I already know its content, it has absolutely no value.
2) An incident must occur, to which the pre-flight information actually applies.
3) The incident must be of such a nature that the pre-flight info is my sole source, meaning no instructions or new briefing by crew superseeding the initial brief, which would render it worthless.
4) The incident must of such a nature that the outcome of which actually depends on my behavior is aligned with the pre-flight briefing.
The chances of this occuring? Well, if I fly a couple of flights every day, it will probably take me about a million years to encounter this perfect storm. And I'm the idiot for not paying attention?
Of course, this does not mean I'm not concerned with safety, it merely suggests that I rely on probability to guide my decision making. In that respect, US1549 was quite interesting, in the sense that I've learned a lot about ditching, for example the brace technique for US Air and that certain doors are best left closed when in water. The various reports also give a good understanding of what to expect in terms of chaos, irrational behavior and challenges in the evacuation process. This is new and interesting stuff, in stark contrast to the run-of-the-mill safety briefing.
1) The pre-flight briefing must change, since I already know its content, it has absolutely no value.
2) An incident must occur, to which the pre-flight information actually applies.
3) The incident must be of such a nature that the pre-flight info is my sole source, meaning no instructions or new briefing by crew superseeding the initial brief, which would render it worthless.
4) The incident must of such a nature that the outcome of which actually depends on my behavior is aligned with the pre-flight briefing.
The chances of this occuring? Well, if I fly a couple of flights every day, it will probably take me about a million years to encounter this perfect storm. And I'm the idiot for not paying attention?
Of course, this does not mean I'm not concerned with safety, it merely suggests that I rely on probability to guide my decision making. In that respect, US1549 was quite interesting, in the sense that I've learned a lot about ditching, for example the brace technique for US Air and that certain doors are best left closed when in water. The various reports also give a good understanding of what to expect in terms of chaos, irrational behavior and challenges in the evacuation process. This is new and interesting stuff, in stark contrast to the run-of-the-mill safety briefing.
Ebb tide, flowing water, even choppy water- makes no difference. The Hudson is not tidal BTW!
quote from some guy above...!
erm
YES, the hudson is tidal i can assure you,
and the currents are very fast and they were on that day !
2-3kts downstream.
secondly
re the above poster who thinks hes knows it all about safety briefs....
no safety briefing is run of the mill...
you must expect the unexpected and it may just save your life,
do you stay in a hotel and not bother to check your fire exit???
as i said in my post above we have had many unexpected catasprohic landing and take off events (but not fatal) in the past 2-3 years in large commercial jets operated by western airlines,
look at the list above !
one minute your sitting their all warm and comfy in your seat, on your i-pod or your're tired or with your shoes off
then you are suddenly plunged into a different world of chaos...
pax have had to get outta the plane double quick and with the help of superb cabin crews...
examples...
the air france a340 toronto crash, and BA 777 at london airport,
also the britannia airways crash of a 757 on landing at gerona in spain is
good example too, right mess but luckily no one killed...
if the crew at the rear door of this ditched US air a320 had allowed the pax to have fully opened that rear main door then the outcome would not have been so happy as the a/c would have flooded quickly and sunk faster...
if that pax had read his safety card he would have known not to have done that !!!
in ditchings usually the overwing exits are they way to go or out the cockpit window...remember that... just one day the cockpit window
may be your only or last safe exit !
(but not always, look at the 146/RJ85/100 series jets...no overwings)
READ and listen to the safety briefs/cards
just one day it will help you...
save the arrogance/complacency
''or, i dont need to know'' for somewhere else please,
quote from some guy above...!
erm
YES, the hudson is tidal i can assure you,
and the currents are very fast and they were on that day !
2-3kts downstream.
secondly
re the above poster who thinks hes knows it all about safety briefs....
no safety briefing is run of the mill...
you must expect the unexpected and it may just save your life,
do you stay in a hotel and not bother to check your fire exit???
as i said in my post above we have had many unexpected catasprohic landing and take off events (but not fatal) in the past 2-3 years in large commercial jets operated by western airlines,
look at the list above !
one minute your sitting their all warm and comfy in your seat, on your i-pod or your're tired or with your shoes off
then you are suddenly plunged into a different world of chaos...
pax have had to get outta the plane double quick and with the help of superb cabin crews...
examples...
the air france a340 toronto crash, and BA 777 at london airport,
also the britannia airways crash of a 757 on landing at gerona in spain is
good example too, right mess but luckily no one killed...
if the crew at the rear door of this ditched US air a320 had allowed the pax to have fully opened that rear main door then the outcome would not have been so happy as the a/c would have flooded quickly and sunk faster...
if that pax had read his safety card he would have known not to have done that !!!
in ditchings usually the overwing exits are they way to go or out the cockpit window...remember that... just one day the cockpit window
may be your only or last safe exit !
(but not always, look at the 146/RJ85/100 series jets...no overwings)
READ and listen to the safety briefs/cards
just one day it will help you...
save the arrogance/complacency
''or, i dont need to know'' for somewhere else please,
Last edited by rog747; 19th Jan 2009 at 11:31. Reason: answers
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Safety Briefing
Reventor, Its nice to know that you are psychic !! How will you ever know if the briefing has changed unless you listen to it !!
My own experience as a regular SLF is that it very much depends upon the CC as to how many folk concentrate on the briefing. I just wish, sometimes, that the other CC would also listen so they could tell their colleague that their briefing is not loud enough, unintelligble. I have also seen that rare beast - the CC who has stopped the briefing and bollocked a passenger who was talking or had a headset on - good on ya !!
My own experience as a regular SLF is that it very much depends upon the CC as to how many folk concentrate on the briefing. I just wish, sometimes, that the other CC would also listen so they could tell their colleague that their briefing is not loud enough, unintelligble. I have also seen that rare beast - the CC who has stopped the briefing and bollocked a passenger who was talking or had a headset on - good on ya !!
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Hi JSL
Hope your trip went well.
You say
You might be interested to note that Air Malta provides earbud type headphoes on the London flights and, in the safety brief, reminds people to remove them from the sockets before going to the loo.
Apparently, some people forget they have them on and hurt themselves when leaving the seat
Hope your trip went well.
You say
It may sound silly at the time, but there really is a valid reason for us asking you to take them off completely.
Apparently, some people forget they have them on and hurt themselves when leaving the seat
rog747,
Might he not mean that the Hudson is a river and is always flowing downstream at that point?
The interesting point for me is that the wind was in the same direction as the flow and the water was quite calm. Had the wind been in the opposite direction, the water would probably had more of a chop, making an into wind landing even more difficult.
YES, the hudson is tidal i can assure you,
and the currents are very fast and they were on that day !
and the currents are very fast and they were on that day !
The interesting point for me is that the wind was in the same direction as the flow and the water was quite calm. Had the wind been in the opposite direction, the water would probably had more of a chop, making an into wind landing even more difficult.
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737NG Overwing Exit. This has to be an improvement on the 'pull in - throw' out variety.
Also, from EGAC Ramper.
Also, from EGAC Ramper.
On the latest B737NG's (at least with us) the lifejackets are stowed in the panel above your head just like the oxygen masks. Also helps with preventing/catching thieves of lifejackets as it does occur!!
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Hi folks
First of all, well done to the crew of that aircraft...amazing!
I do have some questions though that will put my mind at ease as im flying off to prague this friday.
On the saftey card you read before take off (which i always do) it shows pictures of the escape shoot coming out all the doors which can then be used as a life raft. If you look at this plane the back of it was under water so they couldnt open the two back doors therefore - 2 life rafts! what happens now? surely you need all of them for all the passengers?
Also last september i flew the same airline and same typr of aircraft to las vegas and on the saftey card it advised that the seat you was sitting on was your life jacket. dont ever remember seeing any others, have things changed?
last question....if engines cut out at cruisng altitude and cant be started can a plane glide back down to safety or does it just drop like a brick?
Thats probably a silly question but im a bit of a nervous flyer so i apologies now! Thanks
First of all, well done to the crew of that aircraft...amazing!
I do have some questions though that will put my mind at ease as im flying off to prague this friday.
On the saftey card you read before take off (which i always do) it shows pictures of the escape shoot coming out all the doors which can then be used as a life raft. If you look at this plane the back of it was under water so they couldnt open the two back doors therefore - 2 life rafts! what happens now? surely you need all of them for all the passengers?
Also last september i flew the same airline and same typr of aircraft to las vegas and on the saftey card it advised that the seat you was sitting on was your life jacket. dont ever remember seeing any others, have things changed?
last question....if engines cut out at cruisng altitude and cant be started can a plane glide back down to safety or does it just drop like a brick?
Thats probably a silly question but im a bit of a nervous flyer so i apologies now! Thanks
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....if engines cut out at cruisng altitude and cant be started can a plane glide back down to safety or does it just drop like a brick?
Unless Rainboe drops in here.
starbuck reply
quote
Hi folks
First of all, well done to the crew of that aircraft...amazing!
I do have some questions though that will put my mind at ease as im flying off to prague this friday.
On the saftey card you read before take off (which i always do) it shows pictures of the escape shoot coming out all the doors which can then be used as a life raft. If you look at this plane the back of it was under water so they couldnt open the two back doors therefore - 2 life rafts! what happens now? surely you need all of them for all the passengers?
Also last september i flew the same airline and same typr of aircraft to las vegas and on the saftey card it advised that the seat you was sitting on was your life jacket. dont ever remember seeing any others, have things changed?
last question....if engines cut out at cruisng altitude and cant be started can a plane glide back down to safety or does it just drop like a brick?
Thats probably a silly question but im a bit of a nervous flyer so i apologies now! Thanks
unquote
dear starbuck,
no question re safety is silly,
i commend your questions,
at least you take the trouble to look around you....
firstly
use of the rear doors as an exit in ditching and use of the slide-raft?
(slide-raft if fitted, btw, see below)
well many a/c do not use the rear doors in a water landing so you are correct in thinking then there maybe not enough spaces in the front door slide-raft for all pax to sit in.
good point actually so heres the answer,
some a/c are NOT fitted with chutes/slides that can be used as rafts
they are not the same thing.
some airlines who do not fly over open water do not carry life jackets,nor life rafts NOR escape slides that can be used as rafts,
the seat cushion is what you use as a life preserver.
on extended over water flights the a/c WILL have ALL of the above,
if you lose the use of the 2 rear doors due to the water coming in then you lose the use of the 2 rear slide-rafts,
your MAIN life preserver will be you in your life jacket,
in the water,
if rafts cannot be launched or the slide-rafts fail then you have only your life-jacket.
lastly
re loss of power in the cruise?
the cruise meaning you are at high altitude.
if power is lost then the pilots will of course attempt to re-light the
engine(s)...
it is possible from several ways,
but it can be depending on the height of a/c,
the outside air temp, ice etc
whether the apu is working and will infact start itself!
engines can be started using ''wind-milling'' method,
and whether you have any fuel left (see below)
the BA747 over java lost all 4 due to volcanic ash but he got 1 then 2 engines restarted to get down to jakarta runway,
if he hadnt i think he would have had to have ditched in the sea at night,
not nice.
he had 30 minutes of glide (on no power)
the air transat A330 lost all its fuel over the atlantic, lost both engines and glided over 20 minutes to a safe but hard and fast landing without any power to the azores.
the ryanair 737 a few weeks back on final approach to Rome hit birds and lost both engines...
this was a critical moment and the pilots skillfully and luckily made the runway, landed hard and smashed the gear up but everyone walked away ok...
he had very little height and speed left when he lost all power, so in theory he was dropping like a brick...
he used all his flying skill and efforts (same as the BA 777 LHR crew did) to coax the a/c down or as near the runway as he could.
as you can see its all different scenarios,
Hi folks
First of all, well done to the crew of that aircraft...amazing!
I do have some questions though that will put my mind at ease as im flying off to prague this friday.
On the saftey card you read before take off (which i always do) it shows pictures of the escape shoot coming out all the doors which can then be used as a life raft. If you look at this plane the back of it was under water so they couldnt open the two back doors therefore - 2 life rafts! what happens now? surely you need all of them for all the passengers?
Also last september i flew the same airline and same typr of aircraft to las vegas and on the saftey card it advised that the seat you was sitting on was your life jacket. dont ever remember seeing any others, have things changed?
last question....if engines cut out at cruisng altitude and cant be started can a plane glide back down to safety or does it just drop like a brick?
Thats probably a silly question but im a bit of a nervous flyer so i apologies now! Thanks
unquote
dear starbuck,
no question re safety is silly,
i commend your questions,
at least you take the trouble to look around you....
firstly
use of the rear doors as an exit in ditching and use of the slide-raft?
(slide-raft if fitted, btw, see below)
well many a/c do not use the rear doors in a water landing so you are correct in thinking then there maybe not enough spaces in the front door slide-raft for all pax to sit in.
good point actually so heres the answer,
some a/c are NOT fitted with chutes/slides that can be used as rafts
they are not the same thing.
some airlines who do not fly over open water do not carry life jackets,nor life rafts NOR escape slides that can be used as rafts,
the seat cushion is what you use as a life preserver.
on extended over water flights the a/c WILL have ALL of the above,
if you lose the use of the 2 rear doors due to the water coming in then you lose the use of the 2 rear slide-rafts,
your MAIN life preserver will be you in your life jacket,
in the water,if rafts cannot be launched or the slide-rafts fail then you have only your life-jacket.
lastly
re loss of power in the cruise?
the cruise meaning you are at high altitude.
if power is lost then the pilots will of course attempt to re-light the
engine(s)...
it is possible from several ways,
but it can be depending on the height of a/c,
the outside air temp, ice etc
whether the apu is working and will infact start itself!
engines can be started using ''wind-milling'' method,
and whether you have any fuel left (see below)
the BA747 over java lost all 4 due to volcanic ash but he got 1 then 2 engines restarted to get down to jakarta runway,
if he hadnt i think he would have had to have ditched in the sea at night,
not nice.
he had 30 minutes of glide (on no power)
the air transat A330 lost all its fuel over the atlantic, lost both engines and glided over 20 minutes to a safe but hard and fast landing without any power to the azores.
the ryanair 737 a few weeks back on final approach to Rome hit birds and lost both engines...
this was a critical moment and the pilots skillfully and luckily made the runway, landed hard and smashed the gear up but everyone walked away ok...
he had very little height and speed left when he lost all power, so in theory he was dropping like a brick...
he used all his flying skill and efforts (same as the BA 777 LHR crew did) to coax the a/c down or as near the runway as he could.
as you can see its all different scenarios,
Last edited by rog747; 19th Jan 2009 at 13:17. Reason: more
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I take it with the comment "forgot" made here
"That's me gone Unless Rainboe drops in here.
"
they are being sarcastic or something other, you may want to make your self clear!
i seem to remember this part of the forum being for passengers??
Would be nice if someone could answer the question with proper answers and not use silly symbols
Thanks
"That's me gone
Unless Rainboe drops in here. "they are being sarcastic or something other, you may want to make your self clear!
i seem to remember this part of the forum being for passengers??
Would be nice if someone could answer the question with proper answers and not use silly symbols
Thanks