BA Service

[tablelover]

Yep appreciate system does exist guys and could be used in certain circumstances! However you have to be realistic, this was not the only flight operating yesterday. Any guess how many flights may have been canx/changed yesterday? A few I assure you, especially when the flowrate reduces to 26 p/hr. However in this case the individual says he was told 4hrs before ETD, so why argue about a system that in this case was not needed?? 4hrs notice is surely sufficient. If the decision had recently been made how can BA be blamed or indeed sued??

What law or more specifically part of the contract has BA broken? And what proof is there? In the small claims court you have to establish a loss you have suffered as a result of the defendants actions. The fact that a system is available but you claim is not used/employed by BA is not a legal argument that would hold any water I am afraid.

I am sure I have misinterpretted it but there, at first reading, appears a touch of bitterness and anger in your post towards BA. Such outbursts would be best left out of most arguments especially ones conducted in a legal arena. I apologise if my this is not the way you intended your post to be read.

Rgds

[Final 3 Greens]

Tablelover

A touch of anger and bitterness?

1. Refused hotac 2,000km from home
2. One of my best customer accounts in jeopardy, in a difficult trading year
3. Airline took no proactive action to advise or rebook me and waited until I arrived

And I had paid a premium price for the ticket.

You bet there is some anger and bitterness.

Frankly, your posts read either as an apologist or an industry worker.

This incident was disgraceful, easyJet provide wx related hotac on their fares, never mind club europe fares.

If -4 hours was sufficient, why was it not possible to re-route? Obviously -4 hours was not sufficient and BA will have to inform the court when they took the decision to cancel.

I can quantify the loss easily enough, don't need your pontification about how difficult it is, you sound like a BA manager attempting to limit damage.

Top Bunk

I appreciate that you are trying to be helpful, but this is reallynot the point.

[VAFFPAX]

F3G, no service from Bruxelles Zaventem either?

I found two connections which would have required you to stay overnight in Basel, but they would've gotten you to Zürich by 7am the next day.

Connection 1:

Eurostar: St Pancras - Bruxelles Midi ex 16:30, arr 20:02 (GBP 170)
B-Rail: Bruxelles Midi - Zaventem (BRU) ex 20:18, arr 20:42 (free)
Swiss: BRU - BSL (Basel Mulhouse) ex 21:35, arr 22:40 (GBP 400)
SBB: Basel HBB - Zürich HBB ex 06:07, arr 07:00 (CHF 31)

Connection 2:

Swiss: LCY - BSL (Basel Mulhouse) ex 20:35, arr 23:10 (EUR 350)
SBB: Basel HBB - Zürich HBB ex 06:07, arr 07:00 (CHF 31)

The cost would've been high for the first connection, but possibly less than the loss you had to take on your consultancy fee (if you pay premium prices, I presume your consultancy fee is upwards of GBP 5K).

But, that said... it's over and done with - I'd second the others and say take 'em to Small Claims Court, provided your consultancy fee was under the SCC limit. Keep those details for the next one...

S.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

I'd be interested in seeing the Particulars of Claim.

What this has made me think about is whether LHR is a 'Just In Time' airport. I suppose for quite some time now I've avoided the place for the very reasons given above, it cannot handle anything that falls outside of 95% of normal operating conditions. Just not the sort of place to depend on, and the airlines who fly out of LHR tend to be below average performers too in their own right, which just compounds the problems.

Regional airports and trains are the way to go. Would never have said that ten years ago, how times change.

[BOFH]

Sorry to hear that, FTG.

They can really foul up - I can remember flying from Frankfurt to Heathrow and then straight back again because of the cancellation of our evening flight. Expensive day out!

In your situation, I'd have got into Frankfurt asap and taken the train. They run all night. I appreciate that you did not have this information to hand, but I find it disappointing that someone from BA did not adopt some initiative.

Hope they make things right and that your client is understanding.

BOFH

Edit:
Oh nuts, oldtora beat me to it, I started this reply hours ago.

[PAXboy]

Tablelover

However to expect BA to call every passenger throughout the day when thousands would have been affected is just plain daft!

Firstly, the on-line check in will have an e-mail, so that is an automated response by the computer.

Secondly, the pax can enter their mobile (cell) number at booking and receives an automatically generated SMS msg. (as another has mentioned)

Both of the above require one human to authorise (perhaps) 150 emails and SMS's. The system can then handle the enquires via online and automated SMS for those that cannot get online in a hurry. If the system were designed well, the amount of human interaction is much less. I worked in telecomms and IT for 27 years, this is the kind of automated system that carriers should have been putting in place for the last ten years.

One simple example, on a trip to MUC a few years ago, using LH and the new terminal there. After checking in, we were in the shops and I got an SMS advising me of a change of gate. Piece of cake.

If F3G had received an SMS telling him of the canx and inviting him to go online to check alternative routing? Or to canx and get his money back? He might have chosen not to go to the airport at all but straight to LCY/Eurostar or other routes. A system to handle canx? Easy and doable.

THREAD DRIFT
Scumbag O'Riley

... whether LHR is a 'Just In Time' airport.

Yes - it is. Because they are schedule to handle more flights than they can handle (evidenced by the long queues for dep and inbound for gates, not to mention the stacking for arrival that wastes zillions of tons of fuel and time) It only takes the smallest of problems and the delays escalate out of all proportion. As is being discussed in the LHR 3R thread in AA&R, the thrid runway will not alleviate any of this because - they would just book in more rotations to pay for the 3R and the delays will be the same.

I had not thought of using the term Just-in-Time about EGLL before - but you are spot on. Also, nice PPRuNe name!!!

[BOFH]

PAXboy
(automated SMSes and emails)

Yes, have one right here. Don't even need a human.

A is subscribed as having an interest in XYZ. If XYZ crashes (probably not good in airline parlance), A gets an SMS and an email, saying what's gone wrong, whom to contact, etc.

All quite elementary and would have saved FTG some sweat and money. Escalation process for C passengers would have this handed off to someone who could assess the best option, the trains from FRA run all night to Zuerich, about four hours on an ICE, very pleasant in First.

It is impossible to plan for every contingency, but the primary aim is to communicate that there is a problem, immediately. This will reduce your workload when the mess is being sorted out and will mitigate the aggravation you have caused. In my team, I always delegate communication to one person, resolution to the rest (although that can flex). They cannot think if they are answering 'phones.

BOFH

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi everyone

Thanks for your interesting info.

Firstly, I don't blame Lufthansa for not helping, as the company had quite enough problems with cancelled flights out of Germany and assisting it's own pax.

Secondly, the reason I couldn't connect with the train (interesting info, by the way) is that from 3pm to nearly 6pm, I was shuttling backwards and forwards from T5 to T2 to T1 and then waiting in queues for 'help', most of which consisted of rather uncaring people telling me that nothing would work and I was on my own.

Although tempting to walk out of the airport at a later stage, by that time I realised I had a big problem and really needed to stick with BA so that they would be obliged to give me a letter saying that they cancelled my flight - this was my 'force majeure' get out of jail card to use with my Swiss customer so that I would not be open to consequential loss for not arriving for the workshop. It would be very difficult to say I did not use due diligence when I stuck with the airline's attempts to re-route for nearly 3 hours.

PAXBoy/BOFH, yes, I BA had let me know at say 1pm (assuming the flight was canx by then), I would have gone straight to a good travel agent and the probability of getting something sorted out would have been rather higher.

All the BA agents wanted to do was look for alternative airline routings and then send me somewhere else, BOFH's comments about doing and thinking are spot on.

Scumbag, the costs incurred are clear and documented, so the particulars of claim will easy in that respect. In terms of liability,

Remembering that this is the small claims division, where the little guy is generally cut some slack, I will quote the following from BA's general conditions...

5c) Personal information

5c1) We may use the personal information that you provide and we collect, including information about how your purchase history and how you use our services and facilities ('your personal information'), for the purposes of:

* providing you with your transportation and any related services and facilities

The exec club (your account details screen) also says

"2. We will use your data and disclose it to oneworld alliance airlines and other entities for purposes relating to your membership and travel and the provision of membership benefits, services and facilities to you. Details are contained in the Membership Terms and Conditions. By submitting this form you consent to the use and disclosure for these purposes of any sensitive data you supply (e.g. wheelchair requests and special meal preferences)."

I will argue that since the company says it may/will use personal info to (email and GSM number), the failure to send out an SMS or email advising of the cancellation is a breach of contract through negligence and failure to mitigate my losses.

I will argue as PAXBoy and BOFH have already said that such a communication could have been automated and triggered by the cancellation and that it would be reasonable for BA to do this when cancelling a flight.

If you have any better ideas, I am all ears


Likewise, the company could have proactively re-routed me and failed to do so, even though I had paid a considerable premium for my ticket.

I accept that this argument in a normal county court setting is probably rather tenuous, but in my limited experience in the small claims division, a rather more pragmatic approach is adopted.

If I lose, my costs are limited to the fee and if BA have to defend, it will cost them some time and moey, so under the circumstances I am happy to have a crack.

[crewmeal]

F3G - good luck, let us know what happens. I'm sure if you win it will open the floodgates for more 'weather' cancellation claims.

How far does one go when trying to claim back money because of an 'act of God'?

[Michael SWS]

Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens

I will argue that since the company says it may/will use personal info to (email and GSM number), the failure to send out an SMS or email advising of the cancellation is a breach of contract through negligence and failure to mitigate my losses.

I will argue as PAXBoy and BOFH have already said that such a communication could have been automated and triggered by the cancellation and that it would be reasonable for BA to do this when cancelling a flight.

Failure to carry out an action that might be considered "reasonable" does not amount to a breach of contract.

[VS-LHRCSA]

My advice

Having worked in Customer Relations at BA (not for the faint hearted, especially during BA38 and the T5 opening) I'd like to offer some advice from someone on the inside. You probably won't like what you read and please don't take it out on me personally but this is how I see it:

Going legal with this will simply not work. Going by the information you've given here, you are not entitled to any compensation for a flight cancelled due to weather. Think of how many thousands of claims BA get for this type of situation. A certain percentage will, like yourself, be understandably enraged enough to take it to court. For the company, this is very much a standard legal claim for which they will have built protection for in the terms and conditions of travel that you agreed to when you made your booking - as with any other airline.

No matter how much of a case you think you have, simply put, you don't have one - from a legal perspective. By law you are not entitled to anything other than a refund of your ticket and again by law, you are not entitled to claim for any consequential losses such as missed meetings, other airline fares or train fares, etc. Believe me, there have been many times when the law has stopped me from issuing refunds and compensation for worthy cases - but I usually found a way around that by resolving the case in a different way.

My advice would be to approach this from a customer service/service failure point of view. Write directly to Willie Walsh, and include a copy of your hotel bill. Be objective and state the facts only. Include any names of who you spoke to and what they said. This will help to to further investigate your case. If you're an Executive Club member or a OneWorld partner FFP member, include your card number and level.

It will take a good few weeks for a response. You won't get Willie, himself but you will get a specialised area within customer relations, with staff who are generally more enlightened and who deal with case escalations and high yield passengers exclusively. You won't get 'compensation' in a legal sense but you may get your hotel bill refunded, a more detailed explanation, a sincere apology and possibly a good will gesture of some kind. This is what I would call a 'customer service/common sense' claim. The passenger is, strictly speaking, not entitled to it but it makes sense to show some empathy and look after your premium customers when something goes wrong.

As I said, just trying to help with honest, impartial advice from the inside. Please don't attack me after reading this - I get enough of that at work

[Final 3 Greens]

VS-LHRCSA

I'm not going to attack you, but the point that you and others are missing is this is not a weather related claim.

Also, despite what you may believe, BA (or any other party) does not control what happens in a small claims court.

The last time a large company tried this approach in a case I brought, including hiring a Bond Street lawyer to argue their case, the administrator threw the argument out, saying that he was more interested in the reasonableness of their action than the legal finer points and he made judgement in my favour in less than 10 minutes.

Larger companies tend to believe that the customer will not take action and often rely on this in behaving the way they do; I don't waste my time in vexacious litigation, but in this instance, given the claim is well under the limit and there is no compelling reason to upgrade it to a higher court, the facts are simple, no new precedent will be set (I say again, it is not a weather related claim), the I feel that the odds are reasonable.

Michael SWS

Do you understand the concept of implied terms and conditions of contract?

[Scumbag O'Riley]

If you have any better ideas, I am all ears

Purely as an intellectual exercise carried out on a basis of discussing things over a pint in a pub. Also seeing as you are going to do it anyway.

I might argue they have a duty of care to advise you ASAP by text/email so you can make other plans. Case law would be "Caparo Industries plc v Dickman" which will tell you what needs to be established. Take it from there.

Going in there telling the judge you spent loadsamoney on a business class ticket therefore they have a greater duty of care would be silly.

I don't know all the facts of the case and have no idea whether you would suceed, seems like BA did try to send you off to LH, which could well be a successful defence.

Do it properly and let us know what happened.

[Final 3 Greens]

Scumbag

Thanks for the input, hopefully I won't have to do it and BA will see sense when the company secretary receives my letter.

seems like BA did try to send you off to LH, which could well be a successful defence.

I understand you point, but the fact is that Lufthansa didn't accept me and BA made no effort to get them to , just accepted it.

Does this discharge a duty of care?

[tablelover]

F3G, the bitterness comment was not directed towards you. Apologies for not being clearer.

However the cancellation was due to Weather, that can quite easily be proven. Again check the weather reports for the day at LHR that were being given from the previous evening and actual conditions throughout the actual day. They were forecasting and subsequently giving 200m vis, this resulted in major disruption and at times very low flowrates that are legally imposed that BA have to adhere to.

Paxboy et al, I am aware the sms system exists and could have been used - but that is not my point, and perhaps my fault for not explaining fully. 4hrs notice was given, by whatever means. No one has told us when the decision to canx the flight was made. Therefore it cannot be proven that BA are at fault or should have used a different system. Furthermore BA tried to reroute the individual with another carrier and when they couldnt they rebooked the passenger on the next flight available. They followed the terms of the contract as accepted at time of purchase.

It is a shame you see any views other than yours as 'apologist' and although being an 'industry worker' it makes such views no less valid. With extensive knowledge of the industry and the mechanics of the small claims court procedures you have no case with regards losing money the next day. You contracted BA to take you from A-B, this was delayed due to weather outside of their control, yet they tried to reroute you, told you as soon as they knew it was cancelled(you have to prove otherwise - it is not a sufficient legal argument to think they did and make them prove it!) and when there was no success rebooked you at no expense, as per the terms of the contract on the next available flight. However the issue of HOTAC is perhaps the one where you have a case. Indeed you may well find in making a claim and issuing a summons to BA, that an offer may be forthcoming as it would be perceived as the cheaper option. Rather than spending office hours collating the information for their defence.

And BA have no means of putting pressure on Luftie to accept you for a flight once they have made their decision.

Good Luck with it all. But you have to have a rational approach and accept the burden on proof is on you in the small claims court.

[Final 3 Greens]

Tablelover

Appreciate your clarification.

It was the 'anger and bitterness' comment that caused me to make the 'apologist' comment.

As you did not intend that comment for me, then I withdraw my response to it.

I don't object to other's opinions, life is full of differing perspectives.

We can agree to disagree and also treat each other reasonably, as the BA T1 terminal manager will attest, as I was polite and courteous to him, as indeed he was to me.

[BOFH]

oldtora

Codeshare, huh? What a fantastic concept. What I'd love to see would be a booking from say FRA to HAJ on the LH website showing the DB movements (about twice an hour) along with the flights. Might put a few LH people out of work, unfortunately. It's not their fault that air travel is so painful now.

I think that FTG was stuck in the classic dilemma of being in a queue and seeing another move faster. Do you jump, or stay the course? Your mind's overloaded. "Oh Christ" "I've paid for it, they'll look after me" "What if?"

You know that feeling that time is being compressed? It never happens when you are doing something irksome or tedious. It's only ever when you have to resolve too many things simultaneously.

FTG strikes me as the sort of person who always has a plan B. Just speculating, but it seems that the glimmers of hope given between 1500 and 1800 prevented this from being brought into play.

If you rely on the Tube, this is a daily game :-)

BOFH

[VAFFPAX]

Paxboy, you will be astounded by how retarded some companies are, and especially in the telecomms business. I once had a massive fight with Orange because they cancelled the wrong service on my account, because they failed to notify me by SMS or letter which service was going to be cancelled.

I argued with them and told them that it was not difficult to design a system that would send text messages a week or so before disconnection which service was going to be disconnected. Did they take that on board? Take a guess. Pick a number. &c.

VS-LHRCSA has a good suggestion... if the whole situation is spelt out to BA, the amount of money lost, the amount of money paid for having to stay overnight for this issue, then you might get some money back.

S.

[strake]

F3G,

Have read this thread with interest as I have just been on the receiving end of a similar situation (with another airline) in the past day/night. As you infer, the worst part of the experience is the feeling of helplessness when no one appears to be doing anything to put matters right. This is especially frustrating when the airline is constantly telling you how you are a "top100 customer" etc etc.

The reality however, is that a short, polite note to the senior management is likely to have far more effect than trying to go legal, particularly with consequential damages which, in this country are almost impossible to achieve for this type of issue.
For what it's worth, it encourages me that for every rude, uncaring, inept, inefficient, witless jobsworth that you might just meet at a US airport check-in desk, there is someone like VS-LHRCSA who, if written to properly, will make it all better again

Strake (who yesterday, was seething with anger, bristling with rage and calling into question the parentage of the management of a certain airline but is now calm....very calm.....)

[Final 3 Greens]

Things changed yesterday.

It seems that my client (a largish Swiss company) also had people travelling with BA, with similar outcomes.

As a result, my sponsor said he is able to pay me for the reduced day, especially as the delegates all said I did a very good job, despite having arrived part way through their meeting and having to facilitate it without proper introductions.

He also showed me an email updating their travel policy to the effect that BA are no longer to be used when a viable alternative exists.

On my side, my fees are secure and the hotac/subsistence is covered under my insurance policy.

So the numbers no longer make this worth pursuing and a hard lesson is learned, this company will walk away from you when the chips are down, even on a premium ticket.

As far as I am now concerned British Airways will be like a pile of dog excretia in the street, you do your very best to avoid encountering it wherever possible.

I also reflect on the results of research I read recently that says major European companies have an average lifespan of 12.5 years.

This lousy organisation is well past it's sell by date.

Strake, I am pleased that your situation was resolved, as you describe my feelings exactly.