Speaking of daft questions ..
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Speaking of daft questions ..
When flying the loco airlines (Ryan/Easy) I have always found that excess seats on not particularly busy flights are blocked from use and the reason given is that the balance of the aircraft would suffer. Personally I think it is to facilitate turnround by making the plane easier to clean.
I can understand if it is to facilitate turnround as this all works to the advantage of cheap flying. But I dislike being patronised as I believe this explanation does.
I have flown scheduled many times where capacity has been about 50% and it has never been an issue. Or am I missing something - do the check in staff sort out the seating with the aircraft balance in mind.
Rick
I can understand if it is to facilitate turnround as this all works to the advantage of cheap flying. But I dislike being patronised as I believe this explanation does.
I have flown scheduled many times where capacity has been about 50% and it has never been an issue. Or am I missing something - do the check in staff sort out the seating with the aircraft balance in mind.
Rick
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Weight and balance
Hi F3G - if that is the case why doesnt it seem to be an issue with the scheduled carriers or, as I asked in my OP, has this situation already been dealt with by the check in staff?
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Because most airlines assign you a seat, they can calculate the actual balance of the aircraft, RYR use a free seating policy, so by blocking off these seat it guarantees that where ever everyone sits the aircraft will be within its balance limits.
It has nothing to do with cleaning.
It has nothing to do with cleaning.
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On a large charter Monarch from Corfu, there were 37 pax. The Captain asked us to occupy the first 15 rows on take off, after that we were free to move around.
So my uninformed view is that aircraft balance is the correct answer, a pilot does not want his harse end ploughing up the runway....I think that is the correct terminology!
So my uninformed view is that aircraft balance is the correct answer, a pilot does not want his harse end ploughing up the runway....I think that is the correct terminology!
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It depends on the size of the plane. Ezy's 319/20s don't have a problem with it, but 321s do. We have to security check each and every seat before the first flight of the day and during every turnaround, even if it has not been occupied. After take off the restriction is lifted, and you could move to these seats if you wish. I believe that airlines with allocated seating deal with this issue at check in. I think Ryanair do it because they have 737-800s which are quite long too.
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I work for a scheduled carrier and we routinely block seats on quiet flights. For weight and balance purposes. It's nothing to do with cleaning or a quicker turnaround.
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Thanks for that everyone. Whilst I would never argue with CC telling me I couldnt sit in a particular seat I had always felt a bit miffed on being forced into sharing rows when there were enough empty seats to have a bit more room. I will view this differently from now on.
Cheers
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I believe that the 737-800 (as used by FR) is especially critical on trim in a hi-density config.
That said, my understanding is that once airborne, the aircraft effectively trims itself, and therefore seat changes should be available - there may be a requirement to return to allocated seats for landing however.
That said, my understanding is that once airborne, the aircraft effectively trims itself, and therefore seat changes should be available - there may be a requirement to return to allocated seats for landing however.
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It'll cost yer !
That said, my understanding is that once airborne, the aircraft effectively trims itself, and therefore seat changes should be available - there may be a requirement to return to allocated seats for landing however.
Please note that from 1st January 2009 an extra charge of 5 pounds/euros will be levied per passenger on all Ryanair flights on each movement of seat forward (towards the sharp end) and a deduction of 2 pounds/eurs per passenger on each movement rearwards (towards the blunt end).
RaF
Please note that from 1st January 2009 an extra charge of 5 pounds/euros will be levied per passenger on all Ryanair flights on each movement of seat forward (towards the sharp end) and a deduction of 2 pounds/eurs per passenger on each movement rearwards (towards the blunt end).
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The blocking off, of seats is to ensure the aircraft remains in trim. For flights that have allocated seating, check-in staff would be restricted to the number passengers that can sit in different areas of the aircraft to enure it remains in trim.
Once airbourne you would be free to move seats but may have to return to your allocated seat for landing.
It's always going to be on flights that have a free seating policy that your goin to see the blocking off, of seats if the flights isn't full.
Once airbourne you would be free to move seats but may have to return to your allocated seat for landing.
It's always going to be on flights that have a free seating policy that your goin to see the blocking off, of seats if the flights isn't full.
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Do airliners have different weight and balance limits for take-off and cruise?
At the point of take-off, where the aircraft transitions from being supported by the gear to being supported by lift, the crew have to know in advance that the aircraft is within a calculated balance range for safe flight.
I've probably used some incorrect technical terms here, but the broad concept is about correct, I believe - if not, then I'll stand to be corrected
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I've probably used some incorrect technical terms here, but the broad concept is about correct, I believe - if not, then I'll stand to be corrected
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Contacttower
I am a PPL like you, so don't know the answer.
However, I'd speculate about the effect of the differential speed on the control surfaces when operating at cruise speeds (say 350kias) versus 150ish for take off/approach.
Logic would say this would give you more control (and trim) authority, but I'm just speculating.
I am a PPL like you, so don't know the answer.
However, I'd speculate about the effect of the differential speed on the control surfaces when operating at cruise speeds (say 350kias) versus 150ish for take off/approach.
Logic would say this would give you more control (and trim) authority, but I'm just speculating.
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The envelope remains the same throughout.. that's why you work out the ZFW and TOW within the envelope.
I've done weight and balance on B737/747/767/777 and some smaller AC... the concept of W and B remains the same regardless of what aircraft it is ... each aircraft has it's envelope and the balance needs to be within that on both zero-fuel-weight and take-off-weight. There are indexes given as max and min limits - this counts for take off or landing - in other words the balance will remain within the envelope if the ZFW and TOW is within - ie: during flight.
So during flight, as the fuel is used and the CG (centre of gravity) shifts - the A/C will trim itself automatically.
so yes - for take off the seating play a very important role in the calculations for balance and finding the CG. (As or frind earlier pointed out - it depends on the size of the aircraft)
A smaller aircraft like the 30 seater communters/props have an issue if only one seat is changed before takeoff as it could affect the trim radically - but a larger 80+ seater for example will not have as big effect. So to make sure not too many people move around - they keep you in your seat to guarantee the trim calculations etc.
I've done weight and balance on B737/747/767/777 and some smaller AC... the concept of W and B remains the same regardless of what aircraft it is ... each aircraft has it's envelope and the balance needs to be within that on both zero-fuel-weight and take-off-weight. There are indexes given as max and min limits - this counts for take off or landing - in other words the balance will remain within the envelope if the ZFW and TOW is within - ie: during flight.
So during flight, as the fuel is used and the CG (centre of gravity) shifts - the A/C will trim itself automatically.
so yes - for take off the seating play a very important role in the calculations for balance and finding the CG. (As or frind earlier pointed out - it depends on the size of the aircraft)
A smaller aircraft like the 30 seater communters/props have an issue if only one seat is changed before takeoff as it could affect the trim radically - but a larger 80+ seater for example will not have as big effect. So to make sure not too many people move around - they keep you in your seat to guarantee the trim calculations etc.
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probably not . . . . . . !
do airliners have left and right weight limits as well as fore and aft?
Take worst case, ALL passengers on a commercial plane move to one side of the aisle. . . . distance might be ten feet. But lift is still being generated by one hundred feet of wing on each side.
If any professionals know better, I do, of course, stand to be corrected !
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Lateral balance
With pax moving left or right within the cabin, there is very little change of 'Moment'. Now consider a four engined aeroplane with one engine shut down, - any one, and think how you would manage the fuel panel. Tonnes of fuel are in the wing tanks and the 'moments' most certainly have to be taken into consideration.
As I recall, I have been retired for nearly eight years now, but on a 747 there was no guidance for lateral weight balance in the Checklist or Flight Manual as I can remember, actual limits. My previous experience on C-130s in the military which did give guidance on inter-wing balance gave me suitable knowledge of how to handle the situation when it happened to me on a flight from LHR to HRE "one dark and dirty night in 1996!
It doesn't take 'rocket science', but as an exercise how would you 'Fuel balance' for the remainder of a ten hour sector, assuming the problem occured three hours into the flight.
As I recall, I have been retired for nearly eight years now, but on a 747 there was no guidance for lateral weight balance in the Checklist or Flight Manual as I can remember, actual limits. My previous experience on C-130s in the military which did give guidance on inter-wing balance gave me suitable knowledge of how to handle the situation when it happened to me on a flight from LHR to HRE "one dark and dirty night in 1996!
It doesn't take 'rocket science', but as an exercise how would you 'Fuel balance' for the remainder of a ten hour sector, assuming the problem occured three hours into the flight.
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coming back from Istanbul on BA677 on 14th dec, was a 767 aircraft butonly 44 pax on the flight. what i thought was strange as they opened all the seats in the rear and had to leave the forward section empty for the weight balance on take-off, even for an ex baggage handler this confused me thinking they put all the weight at the back, wouldnt that unbalance it? then i guessed they did it because they put all the cargo in the forward hold? would that make sense? the crew were fantastic, didnt use the tannoy to tell about our seating cause we were all at the back, very nice and entertaining crew. The sccm told us we were free to move after take off, but i stayed where i was, had the nice exit seat behind wing. it was nice relaxing flight and basically had 1 person per row almost.
so am i right in thinking having the pax at rear on take off because the cargo is in the front hold?
so am i right in thinking having the pax at rear on take off because the cargo is in the front hold?