Airline Pricing!! How do they justify this one?
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Buckinghamshire
Airline Pricing!! How do they justify this one?
Okay! Just been looking for some flights From London to Toronto, return. Then a flight from Toronto to New York return.
LGW - YYZ = £238 inc Tax return total flight time 15h:35m return costing £15.50/Hour
YYZ - JFK = £318 Inc Tax return. total flight time 03h:40m return costing £93.52/Hour
How does that work?
surely if airlines are being competitive and reasonable then the flight to New York should be costing me about £52.70 return.
I can't figure it out, or understand it. Any Ideas!?
LGW - YYZ = £238 inc Tax return total flight time 15h:35m return costing £15.50/Hour
YYZ - JFK = £318 Inc Tax return. total flight time 03h:40m return costing £93.52/Hour
How does that work?
surely if airlines are being competitive and reasonable then the flight to New York should be costing me about £52.70 return.
I can't figure it out, or understand it. Any Ideas!?
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Canada
try www.flyporter.ca for flights from city airport to newark . Can be quite cheap if booked in advance
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Oil Capital of Central Scotland
So how about EDI-AMS-OSL at nearly £700?
I've had a trip to go to Oslo next week for work. I know it's a bit short notice & it's not over a weekend etc., but 6 hrs 45 scheduled time, and probably only about 4 in the air, doesn't exactly work out to what you might call anything like a reasonable rate - even at $135 a barrel.
I'd far rather spend just under £500 to travel (at shorter notice) out & back a day earlier direct on Norwegian, but I didn't arrange things.....
Did EDI-ATL-IAH Monday-Thursday last year on fairly short notice for only £420.....
Ho Hum.
I've had a trip to go to Oslo next week for work. I know it's a bit short notice & it's not over a weekend etc., but 6 hrs 45 scheduled time, and probably only about 4 in the air, doesn't exactly work out to what you might call anything like a reasonable rate - even at $135 a barrel.
I'd far rather spend just under £500 to travel (at shorter notice) out & back a day earlier direct on Norwegian, but I didn't arrange things.....
Did EDI-ATL-IAH Monday-Thursday last year on fairly short notice for only £420.....
Ho Hum.
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From: Magic Kingdom
LGW - YYZ = £238 inc Tax return total flight time 15h:35m return costing £15.50/Hour
YYZ - JFK = £318 Inc Tax return. total flight time 03h:40m return costing £93.52/Hour
YYZ - JFK = £318 Inc Tax return. total flight time 03h:40m return costing £93.52/Hour
On the YYZ-JFK, most people will fly in the back, so the airline will need to recovery their cost from these unfortunate souls.
Just got to love Airline Economics
Eight Gun Fighter
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Western Approaches
Distance from Toronto to New York City is about 350 miles. Are you doing that in a Ford Tri-Motor? 3hr 40m???
Usual trip time non-stop London - Toronto is 6-7 hours . 15h 40m???
Usual trip time non-stop London - Toronto is 6-7 hours . 15h 40m???
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Buckinghamshire
Distance from Toronto to New York City is about 350 miles. Are you doing that in a Ford Tri-Motor? 3hr 40m???
Usual trip time non-stop London - Toronto is 6-7 hours . 15h 40m???
Usual trip time non-stop London - Toronto is 6-7 hours . 15h 40m???
However a Ford Tri Motor would be good fun!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Buckinghamshire
I have never really broken airfares down to a / hour basis, but when you look at them in this new way, you realise how much we get fleeced on short haul travel in comparison to long haul flights!
Anyways! I booked it, and I think I might take the bus to NYC, or Hire a car! any cheap ideas??
Anyways! I booked it, and I think I might take the bus to NYC, or Hire a car! any cheap ideas??
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From: 39N 77W
It may be more fair to evaluate cost on gate-to-gate time, not flight time. This way the fixed costs associated with boarding, takeoff and fuel used during the climb as well as landing and deplaning are included. They may form a large portion of the airline's costs on a short flight. They'll be a much small factor on long-haul flights.
Years ago I used to figure about $1 per minute of schedule time (not flight time) on major routes.
Years ago I used to figure about $1 per minute of schedule time (not flight time) on major routes.
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From: USA
Mrs EW is from Cleveland OH and we often try to find cheap ways to there from here. I have to say that the fare ex YYZ across the lake to CLE is usually almost the same as the fare BFS YYZ!. As an aside I tried to find her a cheap fare this June and was quoted 604 pounds on the Continental website. When it suggested I look for nearby airfields with a cheaper fare I thought "good idea" and let it search those. The result was BFS DTW for 512 pounds...guess what ....same flights ex BFS and change at CLEVELAND!.You couldn't make it up!!
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Eastern Spain
Recently I had a very similar experience. Planned to go to Cairo via Madrid - Iberia return fare for two - 820 pounds booked well in advance. Added in a sector Valencia -Madrid (rtn) total price drops to 700 pounds. If they marketed soap the way they flog rail and air tickets the world would stink more than it does already!
Thread Starter
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From: Buckinghamshire
Porter Airlines seems a good deal, I like the idea of flying on a turbo prop from downtown! $200 return! sounds good to me! They look like a superb airline too! looking forward to it!!
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From: Canada
Porter are ace. My condo overlooks the airport . I could spend all day watching them. Haven't had chance to fly with them yet but would love to know what that scarey looking left turn straight after take off actually feels like!
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From: Essex
A few years ago I travelled frequently between London (England, not Ontario!) and Montreal. On one occasion the best deal in economy was on US Airways with the return sector Dorval-Pittsburgh-Charlotte-Gatwick. I recall another good deal, with United I think, which had the outbound route Heathrow-San Francisco-Dorval. Airline economics: plane crazy!
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From: Germany
I fail to see what those numbers show you.
If you take the same amount of cost for two flights, one lasting 1 hour and the other lasting 5 hours, of course your cost per hour will come down.
My guess is that even if you factor in more fuel for the longer flight and higher maintenance costs for the shorter flight (owing to more take offs and landings) the numbers for the shorter flight would be higher.
Also I've never read or heard anywhere that prices are calculated thus. As far as I know, Airlines try to make sure that their NETWORK is profitable, not each and every route (even though I'm sure they'd love it to be so).
A few weeks back I found a passenger receipt lying in the aisle. Routing was SFO-FRA-AMS-ARN. Price was USD 127,-! When I gave it back to the passenger, I asked whether that really was the price he paid, he smiled and said "good eh?". And we“re not talking low cost airline here. I'm sure we also had passengers on the same flight that paid considerably more for the same leg.
Usually the price range on a flight to, say L.A. varies from a few hundred Euros to more than 2000,-, depending on how far in advance you've made your booking, and how flexible that booking has to be.
So, even if you do your calculations for passengers on one flight in one class, you'll get wildly varying numbers. And again I fail to see what exactly that would show you.
And lastly, (and I'm sticking my head out now) Airlines don't exist just because they love to fly you around the world at minimum cost, they want your money. Probably all of it if they could get it.
It's up to you, to deceide whether you're going to give it to them (and me, as I'll be serving your meal).
If you take the same amount of cost for two flights, one lasting 1 hour and the other lasting 5 hours, of course your cost per hour will come down.
My guess is that even if you factor in more fuel for the longer flight and higher maintenance costs for the shorter flight (owing to more take offs and landings) the numbers for the shorter flight would be higher.
Also I've never read or heard anywhere that prices are calculated thus. As far as I know, Airlines try to make sure that their NETWORK is profitable, not each and every route (even though I'm sure they'd love it to be so).
A few weeks back I found a passenger receipt lying in the aisle. Routing was SFO-FRA-AMS-ARN. Price was USD 127,-! When I gave it back to the passenger, I asked whether that really was the price he paid, he smiled and said "good eh?". And we“re not talking low cost airline here. I'm sure we also had passengers on the same flight that paid considerably more for the same leg.
Usually the price range on a flight to, say L.A. varies from a few hundred Euros to more than 2000,-, depending on how far in advance you've made your booking, and how flexible that booking has to be.
So, even if you do your calculations for passengers on one flight in one class, you'll get wildly varying numbers. And again I fail to see what exactly that would show you.
And lastly, (and I'm sticking my head out now) Airlines don't exist just because they love to fly you around the world at minimum cost, they want your money. Probably all of it if they could get it.
It's up to you, to deceide whether you're going to give it to them (and me, as I'll be serving your meal).
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
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From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Seat62K
My guess is that was in the time when Hub-and-Spoke was the Big Idea? The majors were offering good prices if you were prepared to multi-hop, so that they filled up empty seats and made the load factors look good.
Another example, UK to South Africa, was usually MUCH cheaper on an indirect LHR~AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/MAD/~JNB but not now.
From recent investigations of getting UK to Canada (and UK to other places) I can see that the indirect routings are much the same price and, often more expensive. The Hubs-and-Spokes have been greatly reduced and the indirects with a single change have risen in price to the point where they are a bit cheaper than the direct but not a whole lot cheaper.
Usual caveat, what each pax considers 'cheap' or 'cheaper' is their own and there are going to be many examples of cheap routing too. Overall ... it is a different world and the next two years will make it the more so.
... with the return sector Dorval-Pittsburgh-Charlotte-Gatwick.
Another example, UK to South Africa, was usually MUCH cheaper on an indirect LHR~AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/MAD/~JNB but not now.
From recent investigations of getting UK to Canada (and UK to other places) I can see that the indirect routings are much the same price and, often more expensive. The Hubs-and-Spokes have been greatly reduced and the indirects with a single change have risen in price to the point where they are a bit cheaper than the direct but not a whole lot cheaper.
Usual caveat, what each pax considers 'cheap' or 'cheaper' is their own and there are going to be many examples of cheap routing too. Overall ... it is a different world and the next two years will make it the more so.
Last edited by PAXboy; 15th June 2008 at 15:40.