Buggy Delivery

[SLF3b]

London Heathrow - Paris Charles De Gaulle (and return):

BA take at gate, deliver at carousel
AF take at gate, deliver at carousel
BMI take and deliver at gate

Guess who we used once a fortnight for nearly a year?

London Heathrow - Cairo

BA take at gate, deliver at carousel
Egyptair take and deliver at gate

Of thread:

Egyptair are also cheaper, have wider seats (A330 / 777 versus 747 in economy), subjectively better seat pitch (in economy), do not charge for excess baggage, refund almost the entire ticket price if you cancel, charge half BA to rebook and are not likely to use T5, strike or send your bag to Milan in the foreseeable future. BA have better food (buy sandwiches), entertainment (take gameboy, laptop or a book as appropriate) and booze (so what?).

Guess who we use?

You do not

[deltayankee]

Airport loan buggies

Some airports loan you a buggy to get your offspring to the gate after you have checked in your own. If I remember right Stockholm Arlanda does this. They are pretty basic and not too clean but they are very helpful.

KL in AMS has delivered mine at the gate on landing, though I don't know if this is always the case. On one occasion I was waiting at the door to the steps when the crew disembarked. When I explained what we were waiting for the captain went down personally to get it for us.

About dangers to baggage handlers: frankly if you are not able to get a baby buggy up some stairs you should be looking at a different career path. Either that or they should hire single mothers to unload airplanes (they seem to have superhuman physical abilities).

[TightSlot]

A most extraordinary thread: Several of you appear to believe that another person being injured, or potentially injured, is a price worth paying for your personal convenience.

By all means, argue that facilities should be upgraded or solutions created one way or another. Blame airlines, or airports, or procedures and press for change - write, email, complain and get friends to do the same.

I have two children of my own, and know well the difficulties of travel with youngsters. I would hope never to display the level of callous disregard for others displayed by some contributors here, and would think twice before admitting to it, even in an anonymous forum.

Depressing stuff

[deltayankee]

Several of you appear to believe that another person being injured, or potentially injured, is a price worth paying for your personal convenience.

I don't believe that anyone wants anyone else to get injured, but I think many people find it hard to understand why trained professionals get injured doing something that ordinary parents do several times a day for years without harm. I often carry a buggy up several flights of stairs, sometimes also carrying the occupant in the other arm, and I have never managed to hurt myself.

[13 please]

It's not just a flight of stairs though. They're metal, narrower than stairs, so with a buggy, you would almost be sideways, the steps themselves are quite narrow, so you can't get a lot of your feet on. The whole thing is fairly steep and wobbly. And you've got the weather to contend with also. Not great in the wind and rain.

[Tudor]

I often carry a buggy up several flights of stairs, sometimes also carrying the occupant in the other arm, and I have never managed to hurt myself.

I often cross the busy road outside my house and have thus far managed not to get knocked over - it doesn't mean it won't happen does it?

Incidentally, whilst the baggage handlers are pi*!*g about running up flights of steps with buggys what about everybody else's luggage? Let's not forget that many airlines, particularly in the low-cost sector, operate with small baggage crews. But, hey, as long as your buggy is waiting for you the second you step off the aircraft then to hell with everyone else's luggage, they can just wait that bit longer...the tail wagging the dog methinks!

[13 please]

I'm a parent and have to agree with Tudor. If you get one of those very cheap, completely folding buggies, then they fit in most (if not all) of the overhead lockers.. Then it's not an issue. I know you can't put a very small/young baby in one of those if they can't hold their head up or sit up, But then there are other ways of carrying small babies...

[Gibon2]

Tightslot, unless some posts have been deleted here, I'm not sure what you are talking about. Nobody in this thread has shown any "callous disregard" for the safety of others (with the possible exception of the chloroform proposal, which I admit gave me a chuckle). I'm new here and no doubt it's not my place to criticise moderators, but your last post struck me as a rather unwarranted and unjustified interjection into what has so far been a lively and informative discussion of the pros and cons of various practices for managing buggies and travel with small children. We have had perspectives from those with children and those without, and some strong opinions have been aired, but all in the spirit of courteous debate and respect for others.

Nobody has suggested that airline staff be put at risk of injury for their own personal convenience. A number of posters, myself included, have questioned whether there is a genuine safety risk involved in delivering buggies at the gate. There are three reasons for doubt on this:

1. Many perfectly respectable airlines do it, with no trouble, at the same airports as the ones that do not. Why do they not perceive the same risk to their staff?

2. Most parents carry buggies up and down stairs daily, in all weathers, for years without injury. Buggies are designed to be carried easily and safely when folded - that's the whole idea.

3. Some airlines (BA was mentioned above) collect buggies at the aircraft door on boarding, but deliver at the carousel. Why is it not dangerous to carry buggies down the stairs, but is dangerous to carry them up?

If, as another poster mentioned, the stairs are metal, narrow, steep, wobbly, etc, then the safety problem is with the stairs, regardless of what is being carried on them. This should certainly be fixed, but has nothing to do with the buggy issue. If the stairs can be safely negotiated carrying a sportsbag, tool box or flightcase, they can be safely negotiated carrying a buggy.

But in the end it comes down to this: no airline is forced to offer a delivery-at-gate service for buggies, just as no airline is forced to offer reclining seats, meals, in-flight entertainment, or any other service for the convenience of their passengers. They choose to do so because they believe it is what passengers want, and will therefore help win their custom. (It is interesting that my own best buggy service experiences have been with a top-shelf traditional airline (SQ) and a famously stingy low-cost carrier (EZY).) Whenever I travel with my baby daughter, I will choose an airline that offers the delivery-at-gate service - and it would take quite a steep price difference to overcome the value (to me) of this convenience.

The only thing I ask is that airlines make their buggy policies clear at time of booking. Would it be so hard for a message to pop up when you book an infant ticket saying "We regret that buggies will have to be checked in" or whatever?

[Tudor]

Certainly the problem when I worked as crew was that we didn't have a buggy policy with regards to delivery of the buggy after landing. This probably isn't what you want to hear but, in my experience, it often depended on the ground staff's mood, flexibility and timescales as to whether buggys would be delivered to the door or not.

Also it may not be the case now but at LGW (and other BAA airports I would imagine) buggys were not allowed to be taken on the passenger buses so if we parked on a remote stand that required passengers to be shuttled to the terminal they couldn't take their buggys with them as the bus drivers wouldn't allow it.

So, unfortunately, in an ideal world it would be nice to give an answer in black and white (ie "You will / won't receive your buggy after landing) upon booking so that you could pack your handbaggage accordingly but as you can see it's not always that clear cut.

[deltayankee]

If, as another poster mentioned, the stairs are metal, narrow, steep, wobbly, etc, then the safety problem is with the stairs, regardless of what is being carried on them. This should certainly be fixed, but has nothing to do with the buggy issue

Well said Gibon2, you took the words from my fingers. This clarification about the wobbly stairs was actually a very useful addition to the thread because it explains the reluctance to carry buggies but at the same time reveals that the real problem is inadequate staircase design rules.

And I agree about clear policy. In my experience it seems to vary not only from airline to airline but also day to day, depending on who you ask. Hazy policy is annoying for the customer and also very frustrating for the customer facing staff who have to explain it every time.

[13 please]

The stairs, we should just call them steps, are wobbly 'cos they're mobile, attached to the jetty.. As the the jetty moves, so the stairs moves. I think they're designed perfectly well for their purpose.. we're not even alowed to use them, we used to, now we're not. Next time you sit on the left hand side, further back than the door you boarded at, have a look outside and you may see what I mean. Different airports, different policies I guess.. That's about the only consistent fact in this business, everything is different..!!

Did you want the loader to bring up all 5 or 6 buggies together, or 2 at a time?

Most of the buggies (if not all) that come on ,already have baggage labels on them, they're supposed to be taken off at the door and hold loaded. However to try to be helpful, we sometimes, if we can, bring them on and put them in the wardrobes. This is where we are inconsistent, because sometimes we can't, we just don't have the space,because sometimes the wardrobes are full of, suprise surprise, jackets and coats of our premium passengers, which IS a policy of ours.

It's sometimes a lot easier to send buggies down because some gates have a slide so they're taken off at the bottom and hold loaded.

[Gibon2]

Did you want the loader to bring up all 5 or 6 buggies together, or 2 at a time?

Good question. If the loader is carrying 5 or 6 buggies together, I can certainly see a safety hazard. On SQ, a trip involving fully-loaded 777s and 747s, there were 6 or 7 buggies, which were brought up two at a time. We parents all waited patiently and chatted amongst ourselves ("thank xxxx that's over", etc).

On the European flights (A320, 737, Dash-8), there have only been one or two buggies aboard, so it hasn't been an issue.

I also wanted to point out, to those who enquired earlier, that a toddler can weigh up to 20kg, and wriggles a lot more than the average Samsonite (my 16-month-old girl weighs about 12kg). Remember it's not just the walk to baggage reclaim - there is often a lengthy wait in an immigration queue. Transit stops are another problem. And unlike the Samsonite, you can't just dump the little darling on the ground when you get tired lugging her about.

[Tudor]

We parents all waited patiently and chatted amongst ourselves

If only they all did...!

[Leezyjet]

Another AirNZ staff member explained something similar to what TightSlot mentioned about injuries carrying buggies up and down stairs - but, honestly, this has to be bollocks. All parents (some of whom are presumably airline employees) carry buggies up and down stairs constantly. The typical travelling buggy weighs 7 or 8 kg - i.e. about the same as any other piece of carry-on. SQ, EZY and Swiss staff handle them without complaint and apparently without injury - are they supermen/women?

Depends on the buggy and the amount of sh1t the parents leave in it, so it won't fold up properly - then half way down the very steep stairs decided it's going to open itself up - and having the buggy in one hand and holding on for life with the other - thats when it's dangerous !!. If I'm ever in that situation - guess which hand is letting go of what

Those Mclaren buggies are probably the best we get regularly, even come with a shoulder strap for easier carrying, but I see no reason why any parent needs those buggies with the bicycle tyres on tme - what really is the purpose of them ?

Do you place your child in them at the top of a large hill and then let go ?. These things can weigh much more than 8kgs - more around 10-12kgs at a guess. These buggies are nothing more than a fashion statement - no doubt owned by the "Chelsea Tractor" brigade who just because then can - DO. Also doe the owners of these contraptions also realise that the air has to be let out of the tyres before they are loaded as happens with a real bicycle ? as I never see a pump to blow them back up again at the other end !!.

Gibon2,

If only everyone was like that. We took 12 buggies up the other day on 1 flight, and could hardly even get through the door for the scrum of parents trying to rip them out of our hands !!

[SLF3b]

We used to have a double McLaren buggy and two sons, 30 and 6 months old respectively. My wife travelled with them on her own. Try getting from a remote gate in T4 to the luggage carousel without the buggy. Not easy.

I think the rickety stairs argument is a bit weak: if there is an airbridge, there are stairs for when it breaks. If the stairs are safe for a passenger carrying junior I would suggest they are safe for a loader carrying an empty buggy. There is no reason to carry the buggy up the airbridge access stairs.

If there is no airbridge you put the buggy at the bottom of the stair.

The argument about drivers not allowing buggies on the bus is fatuous: every public transport operator in the UK is required to carry buggies. A child in a buggy is less at risk on a bus than in mums arms.

So, once again, safety is used as an excuse for not doing something sensible and anyone who questions is accused of not caring about safety.

[Tudor]

We used to have a double McLaren buggy and two sons, 30 and 6 months old respectively. My wife travelled with them on her own. Try getting from a remote gate in T4 to the luggage carousel without the buggy. Not easy.

No having children isn't easy, surely you knew that before deciding to have them? My point, which is being overlooked, is why should the delivery of your buggy take precedence over the delivery of all the other luggage? Correct me if I'm wrong but don't infants travel free of charge? And I take it there is no excess baggage charge for your double McLaren buggy? So this extra cost to the airline is no doubt passed on to the customer under the guise of an inflated ticket price. So not only do I subsidise your children's travel but I have to wait at the back of the queue for my bags which, believe me, are as important to me as your buggy is to you. Again, as I said, tail wagging the dog.

The argument about drivers not allowing buggies on the bus is fatuous: every public transport operator in the UK is required to carry buggies

The only thing that's fatuous is the above comment. I'm not sure if a complimentary bus operating airside comes under your consideration of "public transport operator" but I was merely explaining what the situation used to be at Gatwick. I wasn't justifying it or giving reasons for it; that is what the situation was (and perhaps still is?) and yes, it caused consternation for parents but I was illustrating that it wasn't possible to say "yes / no, you can collect your buggy upon landing".

A child in a buggy is less at risk on a bus than in mums arms

As most airport buses are of the open-plan variety I would imagine the (possibly tenuous) safety issue is what problems the buggy itself could cause rather than concern for the child...as I said not everything in the world revolves around parents and their children.

once again, safety is used as an excuse for not doing something sensible and anyone who questions is accused of not caring about safety

Pray tell SLF3b what were the other instances?

Finally it would be interesting to see how you would react if one of your little darlings were injured due to somebody not following correct safety procedures, no matter how "fatuous" they may have been. I'm pretty certain you'd be on the phone to your solicitor demanding "compensation!" quicker than it takes a baggage handler to carry a double McClaren buggy up some rickety airbridge steps!

[Gibon2]

These buggies are nothing more than a fashion statement - no doubt owned by the "Chelsea Tractor" brigade who just because then can - DO

Bwahahaha Leezyjet - you're on dead right on that. If it's any consolation, those idiots who insist on travelling with huge SUV-style buggies probably suffer even more than you. It is quite satisfying to watch some flustered fashion-victim parent struggle to fold up their monster buggy to get it through the x-ray machine, under the doleful glare of those in the queue behind them...

I have a story to cheer you up the next time a horde of impatient parents descends on you to tear their monster buggies out of your hands. There is a particularly fashionable and expensive brand of buggy called the Bugaboo. You see them everywhere in the posher parts of cities around the world. They're not that heavy, and I'll grudgingly admit they are quite nice to "drive" - but they do have the inflatable tyres. Worse still, they collapse into two separate parts: the chassis and the seat assembly. You can see where this is heading... in Sydney, waiting to board our SQ flight to SIN, I spotted a typical yuppie dad pushing his kid around in one of these. I thought - uh oh, poor buggy choice there, mate. Sure enough, 8 hours later, we left him on the airbridge in SIN, clutching one half of his Bugaboo in one hand, his kid in the other, trying to explain to a bemused Singaporean loader that there was another bit of his buggy, somewhere in the bowels of that 747.

Tudor, I agree with the thrust of much of what you say, but a couple of points need comment:

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't infants travel free of charge? And I take it there is no excess baggage charge for your double McLaren buggy? So this extra cost to the airline is no doubt passed on to the customer under the guise of an inflated ticket price.

You are wrong. Well, partly. On some airlines, infants do travel free on short-haul flights. But not, for example, on Easyjet, which charges 15 Euro (not sure if this is a set fee, or varies with the route). For long-haul, infants usually pay 10% of the adult fare - and this can certainly run to hundreds of dollars. Infants typically get a 10kg baggage allowance: I'm not sure if the buggy is supposed to be covered by this. Anyway, the point is that infants are in many cases covering the extra cost to the airline - and more. On long-haul flights, I would say that they are subsidizing you.

So not only do I subsidise your children's travel but I have to wait at the back of the queue for my bags which, believe me, are as important to me as your buggy is to you.

This in my view is the only reasonable objection to the delivery-at-door service, at least in theory. But I wonder if in practice delivering the buggies actually makes a noticeable difference to the time it takes to deliver the rest of the baggage. My reason for wondering is that Easyjet offer the service - yet they operate with very tight turnaround times and minimal handling staff. If getting a couple of buggies out really held things up for more than a few seconds, they simply wouldn't do it.

[Leezyjet]

The extra cost to the airlines works out about £30/flight to have the buggies carried to the gate. This is what one handling agent charges at LHR.

Over the course of a year that is a hell of a lot of money being paid out for a service that only benefits a few.

[Tudor]

Gibon2, I stand corrected, I thought I may have been a little wide of the mark there!

When you say easyJet offer the service do you mean they officially offer it or that every time you've travelled with them you have received your buggy at the gate? The reason I ask is because they are the outfit I used to work for and this was something we were very hit and miss about - as I said it depended on a number of factors such as the airport, which stand we were parked on, the dispatcher etc

Incidentally I did find that informing passengers that they may not receive their buggies at the door as they boarded the aircraft seemed to pre-empt most problems - the problems occured when passengers expected the buggies to turn up and they didn't. Either way I always asked the dispatcher if they could be brought up especially if a lone parent was travelling with kids as, despite what I said earlier, I do appreciate it can be a struggle.

[Gibon2]

When you say easyJet offer the service do you mean they officially offer it or that every time you've travelled with them you have received your buggy at the gate?

Tudor, looks like you're right - I've just been lucky. The extract below is from the easyJet website FAQ - you can take the buggy to the door, but no promise about when and where you get it back:

"Pushchairs, buggies, and travel cots can be taken right up to the aircraft steps and/or door, where they will be taken by cabin crew and stored in the hold. You can however check it in with your baggage at check-in, if you wish to do so. Full size, non-collapsible prams cannot be accepted for travel.Pushchairs, prams and travel cots do not form part of the baggage allowance and therefore no fee will be charged."