Making things better for the passenger - Respect
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Making things better for the passenger - Respect
A journey in an aeroplane today has become (arguably) one of the most awful experiences that one might experience in a lifetime.
The whole experience from beginning to end has become a nightmare.
Passengers passing through airports are routinely belittled, humiliated and degraded by airport staff who have little or no conception of customer relations or service.
Airline personnel, both on the ground and in the air, are rude, disillusioned and lacking in motivation having abandoned all pretence of enjoying their work whilst they are managed by people more interested in the bottom line of a spreadsheet than in creating and perpetuating a viable service industry with satisfied customers at the receiving end.
Increasing instances of operational delays and management foul-ups lead to rising levels of passenger frustration and fury before and during a flight.
Once in the air the environment for most passengers, trapped for many hours at a time in seats with minimum width and legroom, is not only extremely uncomfortable but downright unhealthy.
The latest we hear is that some airlines wish to sanction the use of mobile phones in flight. That, for many of us, will be the last straw.
Bigger aircraft, more flights, more passengers. The whole concept of air travel in its present form has finally spiraled to the bottom of the swamp and all the shiny new terminals and additional runways in the world will never resurrect it. The recent debacle at Heathrow’s new Terminal 5 is testament to that.
As passengers there is little we can do to help ourselves since there are few viable alternatives to air travel and the airlines and the airport operators know that and shamelessly exploit it.
Until now, that is. With a world financial crisis looming, a sharp reduction in the availability of credit and disposable income and the soaring cost of fuel, the airlines are going to be experiencing some very lean times and sooner than they might believe.
The industry as a whole needs a radical reappraisal – airlines, airport operators and aircraft designers alike. It needs people in all levels of management who have actually worked on the front line, facing fare–paying passengers – ordinary people who have every right to expect a better deal for their money.
Never will there be a better time for the industry to step back, regroup and re-organise ready to start again for the benefit of all when the financial scene has recovered.
It’s time, once again, for the passenger to be ‘always right’. And as for those of you who sneeringly call us 'Self Loading Freight - .....' words fail me.
The whole experience from beginning to end has become a nightmare.
Passengers passing through airports are routinely belittled, humiliated and degraded by airport staff who have little or no conception of customer relations or service.
Airline personnel, both on the ground and in the air, are rude, disillusioned and lacking in motivation having abandoned all pretence of enjoying their work whilst they are managed by people more interested in the bottom line of a spreadsheet than in creating and perpetuating a viable service industry with satisfied customers at the receiving end.
Increasing instances of operational delays and management foul-ups lead to rising levels of passenger frustration and fury before and during a flight.
Once in the air the environment for most passengers, trapped for many hours at a time in seats with minimum width and legroom, is not only extremely uncomfortable but downright unhealthy.
The latest we hear is that some airlines wish to sanction the use of mobile phones in flight. That, for many of us, will be the last straw.
Bigger aircraft, more flights, more passengers. The whole concept of air travel in its present form has finally spiraled to the bottom of the swamp and all the shiny new terminals and additional runways in the world will never resurrect it. The recent debacle at Heathrow’s new Terminal 5 is testament to that.
As passengers there is little we can do to help ourselves since there are few viable alternatives to air travel and the airlines and the airport operators know that and shamelessly exploit it.
Until now, that is. With a world financial crisis looming, a sharp reduction in the availability of credit and disposable income and the soaring cost of fuel, the airlines are going to be experiencing some very lean times and sooner than they might believe.
The industry as a whole needs a radical reappraisal – airlines, airport operators and aircraft designers alike. It needs people in all levels of management who have actually worked on the front line, facing fare–paying passengers – ordinary people who have every right to expect a better deal for their money.
Never will there be a better time for the industry to step back, regroup and re-organise ready to start again for the benefit of all when the financial scene has recovered.
It’s time, once again, for the passenger to be ‘always right’. And as for those of you who sneeringly call us 'Self Loading Freight - .....' words fail me.
Last edited by Xeque; 22nd Apr 2008 at 14:02.
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Funny I should see this now. Someone over in the "blue pages" posted a topic earlier about air travel actually getting slower; a combination of aircraft speeds dropping below mach.85 and congestion. I submitted this response;
When you think about it, commercial air travel has not gone far since the 1950's and the release of the Caravelle, 707 and Convair 880. Except for the limited availability of the Concorde (which is now gone), passengers have seen no increase in speed. Entertainment options have improved over the past few years with the advent of PTV's, but this just distracts you from the fact that the food service is now terrible in most cases, and the seat pitch has been brought to a point where anyone over 6 feet tall is at risk of loosing their knees if the person in front of them reclines their chair. It is amazing in that for the first 55 years of aviation, we went from laying on the wing at 50mph to sitting in comfort at mach .9, and in the second 55 years we dropped back to siiting in a smaller chair with lousy food at mach.85. Not exactly progress.
The real issue is that air travel has become a commodity, available to everyone, and as such, subject to extreme competition and the price wars that accompany such a market space. It has also grown at a rate that most governments and regulatory agencies cannot keep up with in the areas of infrastructure support and overall governence. I don't know if there is any fix out there, but I tend to doubt it. These kind of conditions tend to plod on with little financial incentive to fix them.
I think the future will bring carriers and leasing options which will focus on the high end traveler who can afford to pay for speed and luxury. The rest of us "air breathing freight" will continue to be just that, with little hope for improvement.
Patrick
When you think about it, commercial air travel has not gone far since the 1950's and the release of the Caravelle, 707 and Convair 880. Except for the limited availability of the Concorde (which is now gone), passengers have seen no increase in speed. Entertainment options have improved over the past few years with the advent of PTV's, but this just distracts you from the fact that the food service is now terrible in most cases, and the seat pitch has been brought to a point where anyone over 6 feet tall is at risk of loosing their knees if the person in front of them reclines their chair. It is amazing in that for the first 55 years of aviation, we went from laying on the wing at 50mph to sitting in comfort at mach .9, and in the second 55 years we dropped back to siiting in a smaller chair with lousy food at mach.85. Not exactly progress.
The real issue is that air travel has become a commodity, available to everyone, and as such, subject to extreme competition and the price wars that accompany such a market space. It has also grown at a rate that most governments and regulatory agencies cannot keep up with in the areas of infrastructure support and overall governence. I don't know if there is any fix out there, but I tend to doubt it. These kind of conditions tend to plod on with little financial incentive to fix them.
I think the future will bring carriers and leasing options which will focus on the high end traveler who can afford to pay for speed and luxury. The rest of us "air breathing freight" will continue to be just that, with little hope for improvement.
Patrick
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Maybe if Pax didn't expect to pay less for their flight than they pay the taxi to get to the airport, the situation would not be as it is now.
Your constant demand for lower fares reduces the incomes of those throughout aviation. No respect is given to aviation workers by anyone including passengers and the employers.
You as a passenger now get the respect you deserve. It's no different to everything else that has gone down hill over the last three decades.
If you want it to be as it was then the Low cost model must also go. The two do not go together.
Your blinkered view also misses the fact that aviation employees are also SLF from time to time. We suffer the same delays, the same cattle market conditions.
As far as security goes, we pass through many more security checks than any passenger. The experience is not enjoyed. It is however seen for what it is, a Government induced nightmare.
So if you want to be treated differently then open your wallet and fly like it used to be......First Class.
Your constant demand for lower fares reduces the incomes of those throughout aviation. No respect is given to aviation workers by anyone including passengers and the employers.
You as a passenger now get the respect you deserve. It's no different to everything else that has gone down hill over the last three decades.
If you want it to be as it was then the Low cost model must also go. The two do not go together.
Your blinkered view also misses the fact that aviation employees are also SLF from time to time. We suffer the same delays, the same cattle market conditions.
As far as security goes, we pass through many more security checks than any passenger. The experience is not enjoyed. It is however seen for what it is, a Government induced nightmare.
So if you want to be treated differently then open your wallet and fly like it used to be......First Class.
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Xeque, note that you ALWAYS have a choice - if an airline upsets you by it's treatment of you then vote with your wallet and spend your money elsewhere .... they will soon learn.
The majors have not properly recovered from the market impact of the low-cost carriers on their market - things will settle themselves down eventually when the market finds its level.
I do not agree that the "entire industry" needs a shake-up - if it did, we would find airline share prices on the floor, unable to get credit for new fleets and empty planes as passengers deserted them. That we find none of these things indicate that in pure business terms (after all, these are profit-turning businesses we are talking about), everything is relatively ok.
The majors have not properly recovered from the market impact of the low-cost carriers on their market - things will settle themselves down eventually when the market finds its level.
I do not agree that the "entire industry" needs a shake-up - if it did, we would find airline share prices on the floor, unable to get credit for new fleets and empty planes as passengers deserted them. That we find none of these things indicate that in pure business terms (after all, these are profit-turning businesses we are talking about), everything is relatively ok.
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Maybe if Pax didn't expect to pay less for their flight than they pay the taxi to get to the airport, the situation would not be as it is now.
You also raise the other significant point about staff wages - I had been complaining about the company who BA outsourced Glasgow handling to, to be told by an ex-employee that the new company were paying a significant percentage less in wages, hence explaining the quality & dedication of the staff they were able to hire.
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Xeque,
Your world seems devoid of reality.
What other 'service' can you get at a substantially reduced price against what you would pay 5 or 10 yeras ago?
I've been customer facing. You should try it. If you think airline ground and flight staff are rude you should meet the paying passenger - they can take it another level.
I've managed aviation operations. I watched the level of applicants fall away as the salaries that could be offered diminished in line with the lowering of fares. Aviation was once an 'aspirational' industry. people WANTED to be involved etc. Now, I would not recommend working on the ground to any young person with intelligence, aptitude and (a positive)attititude.
Would you like to go back to the 1920's when very few people owned cars and 'rush hours' did not exsist? The masses did not travel other than for their week at the seaside and only those that 'had' could afford their own transport.
The world has moved on.
Live with it.
Your world seems devoid of reality.
What other 'service' can you get at a substantially reduced price against what you would pay 5 or 10 yeras ago?
I've been customer facing. You should try it. If you think airline ground and flight staff are rude you should meet the paying passenger - they can take it another level.
I've managed aviation operations. I watched the level of applicants fall away as the salaries that could be offered diminished in line with the lowering of fares. Aviation was once an 'aspirational' industry. people WANTED to be involved etc. Now, I would not recommend working on the ground to any young person with intelligence, aptitude and (a positive)attititude.
Would you like to go back to the 1920's when very few people owned cars and 'rush hours' did not exsist? The masses did not travel other than for their week at the seaside and only those that 'had' could afford their own transport.
The world has moved on.
Live with it.
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I'm happy to be SLF - no insult intended, none taken. If I load in a quick, polite and efficient manner, and everyone else does, then the flight leaves on time and we have happy cabin crew, and therefore a happy load of SLF
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Groundhand
1960 to 1970 - Orient Line and P & O Company where a 10 pound ticket immigrant got a better deal than First Class passengers today and still complained
1970 to 1976 - Accommodation Manager in a major British holiday camp
1976 to 1982 - ensuring that expatriate oilmen (some of the hardest b******s I've ever come across) got the best possible deal in the deserts of Saudi Arabia.
Customer facing? Tell me about it.
1970 to 1976 - Accommodation Manager in a major British holiday camp
1976 to 1982 - ensuring that expatriate oilmen (some of the hardest b******s I've ever come across) got the best possible deal in the deserts of Saudi Arabia.
Customer facing? Tell me about it.
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What other 'service' can you get at a substantially reduced price against what you would pay 5 or 10 yeras ago?
Many, e.g. buy a laptop computer which cost £2,000 for a slow model in 1998 and £350 for a lot more capable model in 2008.
However, it is the industry leading the plummet in service, not necessarily the passengers.
By driving prices down, the industry has created larger volumes of new travellers (e.g, locos), at the cost of creating vastly more pollution and reduced service levels across the sector.
In comparison to the laptops I buy, in 2008 business class fares are higher and buy a reduced service level compared to 1998
So, physician, first treat thyself.
Many, e.g. buy a laptop computer which cost £2,000 for a slow model in 1998 and £350 for a lot more capable model in 2008.
However, it is the industry leading the plummet in service, not necessarily the passengers.
By driving prices down, the industry has created larger volumes of new travellers (e.g, locos), at the cost of creating vastly more pollution and reduced service levels across the sector.
In comparison to the laptops I buy, in 2008 business class fares are higher and buy a reduced service level compared to 1998
So, physician, first treat thyself.
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Well, personally, I work my butt off to make sure that all my pax have a nice flight. I put in 100% every day I'm working. Sometimes I have to fake it to make it, but I'm a professional, so you'd never know.
However, I come across really horrid pax more or less every day. Rude doesn't even begin to explain how some people behave. I still remain professional and smiling.
I find it very insulting that this person starting this thread has taken it upon himself (I'm presuming he's a man) to tell the world that everyone involved in the airline industry are rude etc etc.
I'm inclined to tell him to stop flying, but then I guess I'd be rude
Gg
However, I come across really horrid pax more or less every day. Rude doesn't even begin to explain how some people behave. I still remain professional and smiling.
I find it very insulting that this person starting this thread has taken it upon himself (I'm presuming he's a man) to tell the world that everyone involved in the airline industry are rude etc etc.
I'm inclined to tell him to stop flying, but then I guess I'd be rude
Gg
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Xeque said
A journey in an aeroplane today has become (arguably) one of the most awful experiences that one might experience in a lifetime.
And as for those of you who sneeringly call us 'Self Loading Freight - .....' words fail me.
Well for those of you who may be terminally ill or have watched a loved one die of cancer or have seen your family ethnically cleansed and had to seek asylum in a hostile foreign land or have served in POW camps forced into backbreaking labour I hope you're feeling suitably humbled...your experiences pale into insignificance next to the horrific experience of taking a journey in an aeroplane today...words fail me.
A journey in an aeroplane today has become (arguably) one of the most awful experiences that one might experience in a lifetime.
And as for those of you who sneeringly call us 'Self Loading Freight - .....' words fail me.
Well for those of you who may be terminally ill or have watched a loved one die of cancer or have seen your family ethnically cleansed and had to seek asylum in a hostile foreign land or have served in POW camps forced into backbreaking labour I hope you're feeling suitably humbled...your experiences pale into insignificance next to the horrific experience of taking a journey in an aeroplane today...words fail me.
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Personally I have stopped using certain budget airlines where possible because as much as their c/c are nice and run through everything fairly nicely, the check-in staff have been rude and unhelpful at times.
I made a couple of sums based on my average luggage weight (tends to be around the 20-23 kilo range), the restrictions placed on me by said airlines, and I was, for the most part, better off flying with BA, IB, KL, LH or AF, and still save £30 on average.
So, why would I want to be dealt with rudely by STN check-in staff or queue for 15+ minutes at LTN for excess luggage payment, if I can take the bus to LHR or LGW, put my luggage on the scale, and have the appropriate airline not even bat an eyelid at the luggage weight that makes budget airline staff come out in a rash!
So Xeque, you have a conscious choice. Either you put up with being mistreated by an airline and their ground crew, or you vote with your feet and fly with another airline from another airport.
Convenience and price does not always equal value. I'd rather put up with the security nightmare, the taxi time and the missed slot at LHR (within reason) than the hassle of travelling to STN, arrive stressed and then still have to deal with more stress because my equipment is heavy and the airline wants to fleece me for more.
S.
I made a couple of sums based on my average luggage weight (tends to be around the 20-23 kilo range), the restrictions placed on me by said airlines, and I was, for the most part, better off flying with BA, IB, KL, LH or AF, and still save £30 on average.
So, why would I want to be dealt with rudely by STN check-in staff or queue for 15+ minutes at LTN for excess luggage payment, if I can take the bus to LHR or LGW, put my luggage on the scale, and have the appropriate airline not even bat an eyelid at the luggage weight that makes budget airline staff come out in a rash!
So Xeque, you have a conscious choice. Either you put up with being mistreated by an airline and their ground crew, or you vote with your feet and fly with another airline from another airport.
Convenience and price does not always equal value. I'd rather put up with the security nightmare, the taxi time and the missed slot at LHR (within reason) than the hassle of travelling to STN, arrive stressed and then still have to deal with more stress because my equipment is heavy and the airline wants to fleece me for more.
S.
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I'm a regular air commuter and admit that I'm SLF. I don't have a problem with this. I pay the lowest fare I can and accept that the whole experience is price-driven. I'm polite to all the airport & airline staff, and all the ones I've spoken with have been very helpful & pleasant.
The only gripe I've got is with the ridiculous security theatre that we all have to go through and different interpretations of what is and isn't allowed.
The only gripe I've got is with the ridiculous security theatre that we all have to go through and different interpretations of what is and isn't allowed.
So far this year, I've done 24 flights in BA Club Europe. (Being diabetic, I need a proper meal, not just a sandwich) The BA ground staff and CC have been unfailingly friendly, cheery and helpful - some of the agents not so good. My experience over several years is that even when BA CC have an 'off' day, they are still head and shoulders above many others. A LH flight saw the trays almost thrown out, drinks in business class only available if you asked for them, and then the CC dived into the galley, drew the curtain, ignored call buttons, and only came out when the wheels went down for landing.
If you want grumpy CC, try almost any of the American airlines. That's not really, surprising, when you consider the way they have been treated in terms of pay and pensions, while the upper management levels who are really responsible for that happening keep their bonuses, share options, pensions and high pay....
If you want grumpy CC, try almost any of the American airlines. That's not really, surprising, when you consider the way they have been treated in terms of pay and pensions, while the upper management levels who are really responsible for that happening keep their bonuses, share options, pensions and high pay....
Xeque,
Me old china, sonny me lad.
The industry isnt perfect, non are.
It just needs the odd tweak here and there. I tend to move in cattle class most of the time, and the way I see it. If I get a cheapy GBP0.01 flight then there aint gonna be many bells or whistles attached. In my experience flying although tedious is very rarely serviced by rude staff.
As for being called SLF, for the love of god man relax will you. The are just terms of endearment ..... (they had better be or i'll smash all your faces in
lol )
Glorified Bus Driver
Trolly Dolly / Tart with the Cart
Ramp Tramp
W*nker (dunno why I included that, must be due to the fact I get called it a lot)
Theres a fair old list.
Non of them mean offence, so come down from your soap box matey, as with many customer service related industries you tend to have other choices.
Note: Did Glamgirl really admit to 'faking it' on here? Ohhhhhh hang on, she meant being polite to pax
Me old china, sonny me lad.
The industry isnt perfect, non are.
It just needs the odd tweak here and there. I tend to move in cattle class most of the time, and the way I see it. If I get a cheapy GBP0.01 flight then there aint gonna be many bells or whistles attached. In my experience flying although tedious is very rarely serviced by rude staff.
As for being called SLF, for the love of god man relax will you. The are just terms of endearment ..... (they had better be or i'll smash all your faces in
lol )Glorified Bus Driver
Trolly Dolly / Tart with the Cart
Ramp Tramp
W*nker (dunno why I included that, must be due to the fact I get called it a lot)
Theres a fair old list.
Non of them mean offence, so come down from your soap box matey, as with many customer service related industries you tend to have other choices.
Note: Did Glamgirl really admit to 'faking it' on here? Ohhhhhh hang on, she meant being polite to pax
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Poor Xeque - either you've had very bad luck or there's something about you that excites an extreme reaction in the airline staff you meet.
I am, at best, an infrequent flyer, but have never encountered a hint of the problems you report. I've had some discrete eye-rolling from CC at the nonsense I was trying to cram into the overhead bin, but I flippin well deserved it and viewed it as fair (non-verbal) comment.
P.S. In this context, I'm SLF and proud of it. In RealLife, I'm also a geek, a propellor-head, a weirdo, an anorak and a great big girlie swot (if my friends are to be believed). That you view the term "SLF" as an insult, is a reasonable pointer to your mindset.
I am, at best, an infrequent flyer, but have never encountered a hint of the problems you report. I've had some discrete eye-rolling from CC at the nonsense I was trying to cram into the overhead bin, but I flippin well deserved it and viewed it as fair (non-verbal) comment.
P.S. In this context, I'm SLF and proud of it. In RealLife, I'm also a geek, a propellor-head, a weirdo, an anorak and a great big girlie swot (if my friends are to be believed). That you view the term "SLF" as an insult, is a reasonable pointer to your mindset.
Paxing All Over The World
Xeque has already been blasted by almost every post, so I will refrain from adding to the ordure (too much!).
Those that have never travelled by air (either children or those previously unable for all the usual reasons) probably think that being able to get in a tube and go at 500mph whilst having a drink and watching a movie is pretty cool. Those that have seen a more pleasant version of the journey think otherwise.
For those that witness the change, it is almost always unpleasant but those that come after will accept it as being normal. The new normal. Life in the 21st Century is not improving a great deal and it would be fascinating to be able to look at at the century when it is done and see how it all panned out.
Looking at the 20th? I can see that I did not have to go to war and die in the mud like my (putative) great uncle, or in Beaus and Mossies like my father and survive 104 Ops - but have his parent's killed by a V2.
I can use my mobile phone to send a personal 'telegram' to my sister in South Africa and the round trip message can be achieved in under two minutes. The examples are numerous - some things get better and others decline. Do I like modern air travel? Not so much as I did but then, I am middle aged and that colours one's view on many things. But I like where the air travel can get me.
SLF? I think it's a witty and an accurate description.
Sorry Xeque, I agree with you but the changes will cost too much money and the human race does not like to spend money, only make it.
Those that have never travelled by air (either children or those previously unable for all the usual reasons) probably think that being able to get in a tube and go at 500mph whilst having a drink and watching a movie is pretty cool. Those that have seen a more pleasant version of the journey think otherwise.
For those that witness the change, it is almost always unpleasant but those that come after will accept it as being normal. The new normal. Life in the 21st Century is not improving a great deal and it would be fascinating to be able to look at at the century when it is done and see how it all panned out.
Looking at the 20th? I can see that I did not have to go to war and die in the mud like my (putative) great uncle, or in Beaus and Mossies like my father and survive 104 Ops - but have his parent's killed by a V2.
I can use my mobile phone to send a personal 'telegram' to my sister in South Africa and the round trip message can be achieved in under two minutes. The examples are numerous - some things get better and others decline. Do I like modern air travel? Not so much as I did but then, I am middle aged and that colours one's view on many things.
But I like where the air travel can get me.SLF? I think it's a witty and an accurate description.
Sorry Xeque, I agree with you but the changes will cost too much money and the human race does not like to spend money, only make it.
Well, as someone who works in the Hospitality Industry for a number of years now and is moving into Aviation as a Pilot i can honestly say that i agree with the others in terms of it being cost driven.
So often people are coming into restaurants i work at and expecting 5 star service at 3 star prices. They expect every meal to be custom tailored exactly how they want it, god forbid they actually just order off the menu.... They have no consideration for the fact that they are paying less and therefore there is less able to be provided and then choose to further stretch those limited resources by being so damned picky!!!
I can so rarely go around a single table of even 3 people without one of them deciding they don't like certain ingredients that are put into a particular meal and expect them to be replaced by their particular favourites. I mean sure it can be done, but it means that the kitchen who might have 3 orders for a particular meal that can be cooked together and sent out faster now have 3 orders for 3 slightly different meals that have to be cooked seperately which slows the entire process down!!
Unfortunately its a mentality that seems to be spreading to just about every industry. Sure its fine in some industries, like construction etc... but in Service driven industries it can be an extreme hassle and is something people seem to be lacking the simple common sense to work out. God knows i want to help out my customers as much as possible, theres no bigger kudos than customers walking out after a good meal thanking you and promising to see you again soon, but some just come in with completely unrealisitic expectations and boy can it get you down sometimes.
Its the funniest thing about 'Common Sense'... it AIN'T!!
So often people are coming into restaurants i work at and expecting 5 star service at 3 star prices. They expect every meal to be custom tailored exactly how they want it, god forbid they actually just order off the menu.... They have no consideration for the fact that they are paying less and therefore there is less able to be provided and then choose to further stretch those limited resources by being so damned picky!!!
I can so rarely go around a single table of even 3 people without one of them deciding they don't like certain ingredients that are put into a particular meal and expect them to be replaced by their particular favourites. I mean sure it can be done, but it means that the kitchen who might have 3 orders for a particular meal that can be cooked together and sent out faster now have 3 orders for 3 slightly different meals that have to be cooked seperately which slows the entire process down!!
Unfortunately its a mentality that seems to be spreading to just about every industry. Sure its fine in some industries, like construction etc... but in Service driven industries it can be an extreme hassle and is something people seem to be lacking the simple common sense to work out. God knows i want to help out my customers as much as possible, theres no bigger kudos than customers walking out after a good meal thanking you and promising to see you again soon, but some just come in with completely unrealisitic expectations and boy can it get you down sometimes.
Its the funniest thing about 'Common Sense'... it AIN'T!!
