Making thing better for the passenger - the aircraft
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From: not a million miles from old BKK
Making thing better for the passenger - the aircraft
The airlines should abandon First, Business and Economy separation on aircraft just as the shipping companies abandoned that outmoded concept on passenger liners 35 years ago.
The bread and butter for all airlines is Economy Class and not First or Business Class as they would have you believe.
How many First or Business Class only airlines are there and how successful are they? The answer is very few.
How many times have you travelled on an aircraft where First Class has been empty and Business Class only partially occupied?
How many times have you seen passengers upgraded to empty First and Business Class seats at no extra charge so that the airline can fill a few more Economy Class seats with standby passengers?
Let the charter companies provide for passengers who can afford (or whose employers/clients can afford) the cost of premium air travel as well as the cost of VIP facilities at airports around the world. Flights for these people then need not be scheduled but provided on an ‘as required’ basis. The fares they pay can also truly reflect the cost and not be subsidized out of Economy Class revenues as is the case now.
Long haul aircraft should be all one-class with interiors laid out in a 2-4-2 or 2-3-2 seat/row configuration and 40 inch seat pitch. This means that no passenger is more than one adjacent seat away from an aisle and the increased seat pitch will allow a passenger ample room to stretch and move about.
It will also allow a complete re-design of passenger seats allowing them to morph into a much more comfortable elongated N shape offering a real chance of cramp free sleep. More importantly it will not take away any space from the passenger in the seat behind.
This cabin lay-out works best with aircraft like the Airbus A330/340 or the Boeing B767 and upcoming B787.
The B747 does not fit the bill with its 3-5-3 arrangement but it is a 45 year old design that isn’t going to be around for much longer anyway. The last B757 was delivered in 2005.
Both the B777 (which will be around for a while) and the lower deck of the new A380 need a radical re-think. The B777’s configuration is bad and offers little improvement over ‘stoneage’ B747 design. The A380’s top deck is fine but a radical re-design of the space available on the lower deck is required otherwise it, too, will be no better than the old 747’s.
Some new ideas are emerging for a major re-design of aircraft toilets. This includes separate Male and Female rooms and the introduction of urinals for men. An excellent idea and long overdue.
The bread and butter for all airlines is Economy Class and not First or Business Class as they would have you believe.
How many First or Business Class only airlines are there and how successful are they? The answer is very few.
How many times have you travelled on an aircraft where First Class has been empty and Business Class only partially occupied?
How many times have you seen passengers upgraded to empty First and Business Class seats at no extra charge so that the airline can fill a few more Economy Class seats with standby passengers?
Let the charter companies provide for passengers who can afford (or whose employers/clients can afford) the cost of premium air travel as well as the cost of VIP facilities at airports around the world. Flights for these people then need not be scheduled but provided on an ‘as required’ basis. The fares they pay can also truly reflect the cost and not be subsidized out of Economy Class revenues as is the case now.
Long haul aircraft should be all one-class with interiors laid out in a 2-4-2 or 2-3-2 seat/row configuration and 40 inch seat pitch. This means that no passenger is more than one adjacent seat away from an aisle and the increased seat pitch will allow a passenger ample room to stretch and move about.
It will also allow a complete re-design of passenger seats allowing them to morph into a much more comfortable elongated N shape offering a real chance of cramp free sleep. More importantly it will not take away any space from the passenger in the seat behind.
This cabin lay-out works best with aircraft like the Airbus A330/340 or the Boeing B767 and upcoming B787.
The B747 does not fit the bill with its 3-5-3 arrangement but it is a 45 year old design that isn’t going to be around for much longer anyway. The last B757 was delivered in 2005.
Both the B777 (which will be around for a while) and the lower deck of the new A380 need a radical re-think. The B777’s configuration is bad and offers little improvement over ‘stoneage’ B747 design. The A380’s top deck is fine but a radical re-design of the space available on the lower deck is required otherwise it, too, will be no better than the old 747’s.
Some new ideas are emerging for a major re-design of aircraft toilets. This includes separate Male and Female rooms and the introduction of urinals for men. An excellent idea and long overdue.
Controversial, moi?
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: UK
I am not sure where you derive your numbers in your initial statement of 'The bread and butter for all airlines is Economy Class and not First or Business Class as they would have you believe.' but you are quite wrong.
Full fare 'Economy' does have a high yield but in reality few pay 'full fare'.
Believe me if airlines thought that by doing away with First and Business class they could make more money would have done so years ago.
Your post is wishful thinking on behalf of the long suffering economy passenger. You get the space and 'comfort' you pay for.
Full fare 'Economy' does have a high yield but in reality few pay 'full fare'.
Believe me if airlines thought that by doing away with First and Business class they could make more money would have done so years ago.
Your post is wishful thinking on behalf of the long suffering economy passenger. You get the space and 'comfort' you pay for.
Paid...Persona Grata
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From: Between BHX and EMA
Believe me if airlines thought that by doing away with First and Business class they could make more money would have done so years ago.
UFO
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From: not a million miles from old BKK
Jetset Lady
Long haul aircraft should be all one-class with interiors laid out in a 2-4-2 or 2-3-2 seat/row configuration and 40 inch seat pitch. This means that no passenger is more than one adjacent seat away from an aisle and the increased seat pitch will allow a passenger ample room to stretch and move about.
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: scotland
So how is it that the LCC business model is so successful then?
Compare apples with apples, not oranges
Paid...Persona Grata
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Between BHX and EMA
Pretty sure you are right there - I often find self and Mrs UFO saying "We can put up with xxxx - it's only a couple of hours", when booking a loco - the sweetness of the low basic fare mitigates the cramping, queueing, crowding etc. However when booking long-haul it's more likely "Do they have PE? We don't want to be cramped up for 9 hours, we'll pay the £xxx extra"
UFO
UFO
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Nebpor and IniFoxOs
Read all my posts properly. That's one of the things I'm advocating - letting the charter companies handle First and Business needs so that the airlines can upgrade Economy to Premium Economy.
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From: OXF
Seat pitch would just about be the only thing that would need to change in A343/5/6 - They already use a 2-4-2 or 2-3-2 config, which leaves you with a maximum of one seat away from the aisle.
The 744 config of 3-5-3 is ancient... which airlines still use that config?
S.
The 744 config of 3-5-3 is ancient... which airlines still use that config?
S.
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Estonia
No, actually not.
The All-business airline pitches are:
Privatair - 56 inches (narrowbody)
Silverjet - 60 inches (narrowbody)
L´Avion - 48 inches (narrowbody)
As for 40 inch pitch... well the SQ 340-500 has 37 inches 7 abreast Executive Economy, but they are getting rid of it.
747 has never had 3-5-3. And no other plane has had it.
747 is usually 3-4-3.
Once upon a time, standard 747 Economy was 3-4-2, 9 abreast.
For most airlines that do have premium economy, it is a small section at the very front of economy. Not so on EVA Air. They have a huge 8 abreast, 38 inch or so pitch premium economy on 747, and a small economy minus at standard 10 abreast and 32 inches pitch at the rear. Do they do well with this business model? And does any other airline follow suit?
The All-business airline pitches are:
Privatair - 56 inches (narrowbody)
Silverjet - 60 inches (narrowbody)
L´Avion - 48 inches (narrowbody)
As for 40 inch pitch... well the SQ 340-500 has 37 inches 7 abreast Executive Economy, but they are getting rid of it.
The B747 does not fit the bill with its 3-5-3 arrangement
747 is usually 3-4-3.
Once upon a time, standard 747 Economy was 3-4-2, 9 abreast.
For most airlines that do have premium economy, it is a small section at the very front of economy. Not so on EVA Air. They have a huge 8 abreast, 38 inch or so pitch premium economy on 747, and a small economy minus at standard 10 abreast and 32 inches pitch at the rear. Do they do well with this business model? And does any other airline follow suit?
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From: not a million miles from old BKK
Chornedsnorkak
In 1983 I travelled Paris to Bangkok on a Thai 747 where I occupied the centre seat of 5 across. I accept that it probably was something that even the bean counters couldn't justify because Thai don't do it any more and I admit that I haven't noticed it recently on any other airline. It still leaves ABC and HJK on the sides though.
I do remember seeing a 3-5-3 seating plan published during the early days of the A380 development so that is still a possibility. God forbid that an airline actually tries it.
The problem that I have with Premium Economy is that for the extra comfort you get it is monstrously over priced.
You mention EVA Air. EVA is my airline of choice when I fly to Europe 2-3 times a year on business. I now know my way around their cabin layouts (B777 and B747) and when I allocate myself my seat on line I know which ones give you the best space in Economy. I have also amassed a lot of air-miles with them and look forward to some upgrade perks soon.
I do remember seeing a 3-5-3 seating plan published during the early days of the A380 development so that is still a possibility. God forbid that an airline actually tries it.
The problem that I have with Premium Economy is that for the extra comfort you get it is monstrously over priced.
You mention EVA Air. EVA is my airline of choice when I fly to Europe 2-3 times a year on business. I now know my way around their cabin layouts (B777 and B747) and when I allocate myself my seat on line I know which ones give you the best space in Economy. I have also amassed a lot of air-miles with them and look forward to some upgrade perks soon.
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From: Estonia
In 1983 I travelled Paris to Bangkok on a Thai 747 where I occupied the centre seat of 5 across. I accept that it probably was something that even the bean counters couldn't justify because Thai don't do it any more and I admit that I haven't noticed it recently on any other airline. It still leaves ABC and HJK on the sides though.
Thread Starter
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From: not a million miles from old BKK
Maybe the Thai 747 was laid out in 2-5-2 and I just didn't notice how the window seats were arranged. Definitely 5 across in the middle though. I just came across a photo of a L1011 layout that is the same 2-5-2. Its a Hajj aircraft so they'd certainly pack 'em in there.
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From: OXF
The only layout where 3-5-3 was ever a possibility was a single-class layout by certain Japanese airlines who wanted to cram 880 pax into a A380 in a single-class layout. From experience I know that Japanese seating arrangements can be narrower than what we are used to in Europe (Shinkansen being one example), so it is possible there.
But it's an outdated seating arrangement. All airlines I've flown with have done a 3-4-3 at the most in a B747.
S.
But it's an outdated seating arrangement. All airlines I've flown with have done a 3-4-3 at the most in a B747.
S.