BA038 PAX to Sue?
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technically they did get from A to B safely.
what AAIB then doing with that? I never heard technically safe flights attracting any interest from AAIB side.
The aircraft was still intact
Yep, not counting MLG went through, not counting engines full of mud and missing some covers etc...
They all walked away from the crash!
First they had to jump, including children, old people and probably some disabled people as well. Then walk. And it was someone else fault, because BA pax are normally expecting to walk away through the gate or stairs, and certainly not expecting to experience dangerous G on touchdown.
what AAIB then doing with that? I never heard technically safe flights attracting any interest from AAIB side.
The aircraft was still intact
Yep, not counting MLG went through, not counting engines full of mud and missing some covers etc...
They all walked away from the crash!
First they had to jump, including children, old people and probably some disabled people as well. Then walk. And it was someone else fault, because BA pax are normally expecting to walk away through the gate or stairs, and certainly not expecting to experience dangerous G on touchdown.
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Cargo one, to quote you..
First they had to jump, including children, old people and probably some disabled people as well. Then walk. And it was someone else fault, because BA pax are normally expecting to walk away through the gate or stairs, and certainly not expecting to experience dangerous G on touchdown.
Agreed, passengers would expect to disembark via an airbridge or set of steps. But the fact that they did not disembark in the expected manner should not automatically entitle them to financial reward
I'm also not sure how you make the statement that 'it was someone else(s) fault' - what do you base that on?
First they had to jump, including children, old people and probably some disabled people as well. Then walk. And it was someone else fault, because BA pax are normally expecting to walk away through the gate or stairs, and certainly not expecting to experience dangerous G on touchdown.
Agreed, passengers would expect to disembark via an airbridge or set of steps. But the fact that they did not disembark in the expected manner should not automatically entitle them to financial reward
I'm also not sure how you make the statement that 'it was someone else(s) fault' - what do you base that on?
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I believe insurers still use the term "Act of God" when referring to a situation that man could not have prevented.
Presumably every other accident is recognised to have human contributory factors somewhere along the line: design, certification, operation, maintenance etc. Fault if you want to call it fault.
It's the job of the AAIB to identify them. They will be found.
Presumably every other accident is recognised to have human contributory factors somewhere along the line: design, certification, operation, maintenance etc. Fault if you want to call it fault.
It's the job of the AAIB to identify them. They will be found.
Last edited by Dysag; 5th Feb 2008 at 18:57.
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Is anyone else not entirely convinced by Tightslop's opinion that the a/c would have 'exploded on impact' if the B777 had landed on the tarmac instead ofthe grass. My knowledge of heavy jet ops is somewhat limited but i seem to remember an A330 achieving something similiar in the Azores.
Surely the B777 would have survived relatively intact if it had landed on the runway instead of the grass?
ETC
Surely the B777 would have survived relatively intact if it had landed on the runway instead of the grass?
ETC
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Nobody forced them onto the aircraft and anybody who willingly gets onto an aircraft must surely accept that there is a risk of death or serious injury. There is such a thing as bad luck. Any litigation is pure opportunism, taking advantage of the misfortune of others, be it BA, Boeing, RR or who ever. And the effect will be... To put up ticket prices for everybody else so that the cost can be covered. Utter selfishness.
So when (rarely) an accident or serious incident happens where damage occurs, why shouldn't there be a claim ? The industry participants have already priced the risk into the product. The manufacturers and the airlines are insured against the risk, and inevitably any claims will fall to the insurers. Unless you have experienced the trauma of such an event and the subsequent problems that may be associated with it, what grounds do you have to proffer disparaging criticism ?
If its any consolation to the embittered, court awards in the UK for actual visible injuries are ludicrously low, let alone psychological ones ! Large awards when they (rarely) do occur are often in compensation for long term loss of future earnings. Even those are usually as a result of many years of wearilly fighting against insurance companies, who know that in the UK they have nothing to lose by pursuing a case to court and possibly everything to gain by default. In the United States the common use of juries and the application of large punitive damage awards, tends to focus the attention of insurance companies as a case approaches trial. In this respect perhaps the US system is not as absurd as it is sometimes portrayed.
For those that are inclined to suffer sleepless nights at the prospect of large US corporations being sued, they can console themselves with the fact that most of the passengers in this case would be non US citizens. The American companies will almost certainly agree to comply with the Uk jurisdiction (they would be mad not to), and as such the rules of forums nons conveniens would prevent them being successfully sued in their own country.
None of these passengers invited, expected or deserved to be in this situation, and if they they have suffered any damage as a result of it, then they have the absolute right to seek compensation. Money may be a poor recompense for injury or loss, but since nothing will ever put right having to experience and possibly endure physical or psychological injury it is the the only form of recompense that there is.
For those (unselfish souls) that that worry it might add 2p to the cost of their airline ticket. Well, the ticket will still probably cost you less than a pair of decent jeans, and the cost pressure from fuel and airport charges will make any conceivable rise pale into insignificance. Therefore let the survivors have any compensation they may receive after years of fighting for it, whilst the unselfish industry and its equally unselfish providers, continue to compete for your equally unselfish business.
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Lawyer here.
Pilots posting on this forum in various threads rightly in my view whinge and moan when uninformed speculation about the BA or other incident comes from the non-specialist. Wait for the report is often said and I see no reason to doubt such a sensible view. Similarly I would say that there are some people in this thread who are not specialists in personal injury law as it relates to commercial aviation. My professional opinion is that Ms Moore's article on her firms website is a model of a carefully balanced view of the general law on the subject. No attempt has been made to allege or otherwise impugn the bona fides of the pilots, BA, RR or Boeing, or indeed anyone else. It in effect says here is the current state of the law and wait for the report to make an assessment as to any liability, if at all. I am not in any way connected to Leigh Day & Co or to Ms Moore, indeed I've never met the lady.
Pilots posting on this forum in various threads rightly in my view whinge and moan when uninformed speculation about the BA or other incident comes from the non-specialist. Wait for the report is often said and I see no reason to doubt such a sensible view. Similarly I would say that there are some people in this thread who are not specialists in personal injury law as it relates to commercial aviation. My professional opinion is that Ms Moore's article on her firms website is a model of a carefully balanced view of the general law on the subject. No attempt has been made to allege or otherwise impugn the bona fides of the pilots, BA, RR or Boeing, or indeed anyone else. It in effect says here is the current state of the law and wait for the report to make an assessment as to any liability, if at all. I am not in any way connected to Leigh Day & Co or to Ms Moore, indeed I've never met the lady.
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Unless you have experienced the trauma of such an event and the subsequent problems that may be associated with it, what grounds do you have to proffer disparaging criticism ?
Like most, I've sufferred at the hands of others over the years and I know I given out plenty myself - it's the nature of human existance I'm afraid - $h!t happens; the mature man accepts that as part of life and doesn't seek advantage out of it. I've been involved in car crashes that shook me up a bit - so what? Would I sue? Tomorrow it might be me that causes it. Would I want to be sued? This is an outstanding example of the lack of compassion that exists in this world... "Sod the effect on everybody else, what can I squeeze out of this for me?"
This time next week I'll be airborne out of LL for HKG and I accept now that I may not get there, or back.
.4
Last edited by 120.4; 5th Feb 2008 at 22:17. Reason: I've just seen your handle... Bealzebub. Close to another name representing similar attitude
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Hmmm... ATCO ! My first guess was Insurance underwriter.
My contribution was based on the personal experience of a very close family member who had been seriously injured in an aircraft crash. The AAIB report made 4 recomendations, all relating to either the engine manufacturer, the engine overhaul company, their manuals and their personel. The insurance company spent years attempting to resile from their third party liability. I have little sympathy for them, although as commercial enterprises desperate to turn a profit, I understand their position.
Having seen the trauma that results from accidents I can only speak first hand as an observer and participent in the aftermath, hence the contribution.
I appreciate your opinion / prejudice of how "life sucks", but when this actually happens to you it really is different. As I already pointed out, you need not worry about claims for minor injuries as they are usually paltry in the UK. Any passengers that do suffer deeper or long term damage will also likely have to fight long and hard for any reasonable recompense, even that recompense will not likely compensate them in any real terms. Not everybody is some sort of scrounger, although the insurance industry is happy to propogate that belief, and seemingly you are content to lap it up.
Enjoy HKG, I am sure you will be fine.
My contribution was based on the personal experience of a very close family member who had been seriously injured in an aircraft crash. The AAIB report made 4 recomendations, all relating to either the engine manufacturer, the engine overhaul company, their manuals and their personel. The insurance company spent years attempting to resile from their third party liability. I have little sympathy for them, although as commercial enterprises desperate to turn a profit, I understand their position.
Having seen the trauma that results from accidents I can only speak first hand as an observer and participent in the aftermath, hence the contribution.
I appreciate your opinion / prejudice of how "life sucks", but when this actually happens to you it really is different. As I already pointed out, you need not worry about claims for minor injuries as they are usually paltry in the UK. Any passengers that do suffer deeper or long term damage will also likely have to fight long and hard for any reasonable recompense, even that recompense will not likely compensate them in any real terms. Not everybody is some sort of scrounger, although the insurance industry is happy to propogate that belief, and seemingly you are content to lap it up.
Enjoy HKG, I am sure you will be fine.
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The Issue is Duty of Care
I suspect there may well be a Health and Safety prosecution brought against BA prior to any civil action by passengers for compensation.
The overarching legal question is whether the airline did everything it could have done - or should have done (i.e. according to its own operating procedures and crew-training)_ to ensure the safety of its passengers - and whether those procedures were adequate.
It seems already well-established that the passengers were not alerted to adopt the brace position - and this may be held to indicate a major omission in an operation where passenger safety is paramount. The fact that the passengers were then evacuated swiftly is to the credit of the cabin crew - but it was damn lucky for all concerned that there was no fire.
The overarching legal question is whether the airline did everything it could have done - or should have done (i.e. according to its own operating procedures and crew-training)_ to ensure the safety of its passengers - and whether those procedures were adequate.
It seems already well-established that the passengers were not alerted to adopt the brace position - and this may be held to indicate a major omission in an operation where passenger safety is paramount. The fact that the passengers were then evacuated swiftly is to the credit of the cabin crew - but it was damn lucky for all concerned that there was no fire.
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Did the Manchester United team sue BEA after Munich?
Well it's a good question.
I don't believe the survivors received any compensation - although I suppose standard payouts were made to the families of those who died.
Certainly the former United captain and Munich survivor Bill Foulkes received no compensation at all. He was so hard up he had to sell his medals
I don't believe the survivors received any compensation - although I suppose standard payouts were made to the families of those who died.
Certainly the former United captain and Munich survivor Bill Foulkes received no compensation at all. He was so hard up he had to sell his medals
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Is anyone else not entirely convinced by Tightslop's opinion that the a/c would have 'exploded on impact' if the B777 had landed on the tarmac instead ofthe grass. My knowledge of heavy jet ops is somewhat limited but i seem to remember an A330 achieving something similiar in the Azores.
Surely the B777 would have survived relatively intact if it had landed on the runway instead of the grass?
Surely the B777 would have survived relatively intact if it had landed on the runway instead of the grass?
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On hearing of the crash the first thought that went through my mind was "oh dear, I hope BA has a good lawyer lined up." Pity we have to think that way but that is the way of the world.
I have legal qualifications so I'm usually willing to hear the lawyer's side, but this is greed.
But greed not only - or even primarily - on the part of the lawyer, but the litigants. There will have been people call lawyers, wondering what they can get out of the big, bad, cashed-up (so they think) corporate that is BA.
Who knows, it might even pay for a new car or a fancy holiday.
It's the way of the world now, it's inevitable. If something goes wrong, someone will get sued.
I have legal qualifications so I'm usually willing to hear the lawyer's side, but this is greed.
But greed not only - or even primarily - on the part of the lawyer, but the litigants. There will have been people call lawyers, wondering what they can get out of the big, bad, cashed-up (so they think) corporate that is BA.
Who knows, it might even pay for a new car or a fancy holiday.
It's the way of the world now, it's inevitable. If something goes wrong, someone will get sued.
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"Personally I don't think the 'no-win, no-fee' culture has anything to do with it."
Aviate1138 chokes....
What!!!!!!! And the band played "Believe it if you like!"
When did the world suddenly embrace 100% absolutely dead certain safety, always?
Frankly the Legal Profession needed jobs for the legally unemployed/unemployable and
'no-win, no-fee' was born.
And like lemmings the greedy UK lawyers jumped on the bandwaggon.
Cherie Bliar is a human rights lawyer isn't she? Another legal scam for grabbing loads
of money.
Aviate1138 chokes....
What!!!!!!! And the band played "Believe it if you like!"
When did the world suddenly embrace 100% absolutely dead certain safety, always?
Frankly the Legal Profession needed jobs for the legally unemployed/unemployable and
'no-win, no-fee' was born.
And like lemmings the greedy UK lawyers jumped on the bandwaggon.
Cherie Bliar is a human rights lawyer isn't she? Another legal scam for grabbing loads
of money.
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If you watched the BBC tv programme on the Munich 'disaster' as they refer to it, you will have seen Harry Gregg up close.
If ever anyone deserved compensation, he would surely be at the head of the queue. Injured during the crash, he returned into the wreckage four times, pulling the living out of the burning plane. He never received a bean, from anyone, nor did he ever ask for it.
Danny Blanchflower never played football again due to his injuries. He also got nothing from anyone by way of compensation. He turned to journalism for his living.
I am not suggesting that compensation should not be paid, but if it is to be paid then lets restrict it to those who are physically injured.
Most of the pax interviewed after the incident said they thought it was just a bumpy landing! How traumatic can that have been?
I expect some of my recent landings in the windy weather have been more dramatic than the BA 'landing'.
If ever anyone deserved compensation, he would surely be at the head of the queue. Injured during the crash, he returned into the wreckage four times, pulling the living out of the burning plane. He never received a bean, from anyone, nor did he ever ask for it.
Danny Blanchflower never played football again due to his injuries. He also got nothing from anyone by way of compensation. He turned to journalism for his living.
I am not suggesting that compensation should not be paid, but if it is to be paid then lets restrict it to those who are physically injured.
Most of the pax interviewed after the incident said they thought it was just a bumpy landing! How traumatic can that have been?
I expect some of my recent landings in the windy weather have been more dramatic than the BA 'landing'.
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rubik101
Sorry to be pedantic but it was Jackie Blanchflower who survived the air crash. He was the brother of Danny who played for Spurs and Northern Ireland , retiring in 1964. Jackie never played again due to injuries received in the crash he died in 1998 from cancer.
Sorry to be pedantic but it was Jackie Blanchflower who survived the air crash. He was the brother of Danny who played for Spurs and Northern Ireland , retiring in 1964. Jackie never played again due to injuries received in the crash he died in 1998 from cancer.
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Oops, just realised my reply should have been on another thread, doh. So to correct myself: financial compensation would be appropriate for people who have been physically injured, and for those with psychological injuries. With the latter, that would have to be determined by medical professionals and actually have some impact on the individual's day to day living. Someone who has said that they didn't know anything was really wrong until they got off the 'plane and has no other complaint than trouble getting home, got all their possessions back and who never obviously could take years to determine suffers any sort of PTSD, nightmares, flashbacks or anything else doesn't, to my mind, have anything to claim for.
Indeminity is supposed to put things back to how they were before an event. As has already been said money can't make up for injury or psychological injury, but it's something.
I still think everyone involved should be grateful to be alive and show some appreciation for the BA crew, but that's not as newsworthy perhaps?
I'm, obviously, SLF & from an insurance background
so it's just personal opinion. Oh, and "Act of God" was certainly still in use last time I looked.
Indeminity is supposed to put things back to how they were before an event. As has already been said money can't make up for injury or psychological injury, but it's something.
I still think everyone involved should be grateful to be alive and show some appreciation for the BA crew, but that's not as newsworthy perhaps?
I'm, obviously, SLF & from an insurance background
so it's just personal opinion. Oh, and "Act of God" was certainly still in use last time I looked.
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sandbank
Just a word in their favour. It has been established in the other threads that, from the moment that engine thrust was lost, to the moment of impact was between 40 and 50 seconds.
In that time, the flight deck crew had to face a problem that no one had ever been trained for, because it was not supposed to happen. I realise, of course, that it would have been grand for them to have warned the cabin but they got them on the ground in one piece with only one serious injury. I would call that exercising a duty of care but I am not a lawyer!
The most remarkable points were pax from the flight saying, "We did not realise we had crashed" and "Many instinctively reached for their bags from the overhead locker" Sounds like many of the pax were OK but, I am not a lawyer!
It seems already well-established that the passengers were not alerted to adopt the brace position - and this may be held to indicate a major omission in an operation where passenger safety is paramount.
In that time, the flight deck crew had to face a problem that no one had ever been trained for, because it was not supposed to happen. I realise, of course, that it would have been grand for them to have warned the cabin but they got them on the ground in one piece with only one serious injury. I would call that exercising a duty of care but I am not a lawyer!
The most remarkable points were pax from the flight saying, "We did not realise we had crashed" and "Many instinctively reached for their bags from the overhead locker" Sounds like many of the pax were OK but, I am not a lawyer!
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Excellent article in the Telegraph today ... My escape from BA038 was damn fun. Not surprised, however that the '... BAA seemed to show little concern for the fact that we had been in an accident; they were at that stage unaware of what had happened and should have assumed that events had been more severe. They also seemed surprised that there could have been a plane crash at the airport. It seems that if it doesn't involve spending money in the shops, the BAA aren't interested. 
Ll
Ll
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Llademos - there are a heck of a lot of new people in the terminals and management at BAA who seem to think that the only thing they are responsible for is getting passengers through security. This seems to have been indoctrinated by the recent "process management" gurus bought in from the manufacturing industry, and amplified by the appalling experiences of last year, widely reported in the media. I suspect it's this crowd that the BA pax had interaction with.
There are still good, experienced people in airfield operations and fire service working for BAA and I know that some of these see this incident as a wake up call for BAA senior management, it has made them realise that "oh, you mean we're responsible for the airfield as well......" Sad, I know.
There are still good, experienced people in airfield operations and fire service working for BAA and I know that some of these see this incident as a wake up call for BAA senior management, it has made them realise that "oh, you mean we're responsible for the airfield as well......" Sad, I know.