Advice Required
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Sorry for the long winded post, I'll split it.
I'm looking for assistance on what do with my scenario detailed below. This account is 100% accurate and I'd appreciate if responses would bear this in mind.
I was a member of a party of 10 football supporters returning from a recent European match. The booking comprised of 1 group of 5, with the remainder having made individual bookings. All 10 passengers boarded successfully, although there was a minor incident at the final departure gate.
I was aware of a disturbance involving another group of 4 female passengers. This involved one of them, quite clearly in an anxious state, loudly proclaiming to the staff that she refused to travel with a group of drunken Scottish football fans. She was refused permission to travel. The remainder of her group proceeded towards the aircraft. Our group then proceeded towards boarding. I was the last group member to hand over my pass. The woman was still demanding to board, initially stating we were all drunk before changing her position to a fear of flying. The ground staff politely confirmed that our group has passed 3 checks prior to final boarding and the only person deemed to be unfit to fly was the aggrieved woman. An appeal to the captain of the flight had been made and ground staffs were awaiting a response on the decision of non boarding. After a period of 10 mins or so this passenger was granted permission to fly and joined the aircraft.
Our group was scattered in the final 5/6 rows at the rear of the aircraft. We assumed take off was imminent. Several of our group were then warned that we had placed a female passenger's safety at risk and that we should mind our language. The passenger who complained was the same passenger who had initially been denied boarding.
After a short while, we were then informed that we were being denied permission to fly and being ejected from the flight. No unruly or disrespectful behaviour came from our group, nor had there been any further 'warnings' from the cabin crew. They said the captain’s decision was final. We were escorted off the aircraft by the local police, who in turn photocopied our passports before returning them.
We all had to make our own way home, due to lack of available flights that evening, all had to remain overnight. 5 Made it to Liverpool, 3 to Newcastle, approx 14 hours later and 2 (including myself to Glasgow, some 34 hours later). Not much good when your vehicle is in Manchester.
I returned to the airport the following day, considerably upset at the incident, but wishing to ascertain the full facts (from the airlines perspective) prior to raising a formal complaint
I managed to speak to the ground staff member who had initially refused the female passenger permission to fly. She could not believe that we were ejected on the grounds of being drunk and that she had would be filing a report on the incident as far as she saw it. (Of course this may have been her training, listening to concerns and defusing any possible situation.
The only definite flight out was operated by our original carriers, however in order to fly we would have to purchase additional tickets, hugely inflated price and sign a disclaimer. She could not have been more sympathetic of our plight and managed to obtain 2 seats with another operator on the basis of a no show.
For additional background info, five of the group were not drinking, either being the minibus driver or having to drive when we reached our home destination. The remainder had drunk very little, and I can confirm that there was no excessive drinking whatsoever.
Now my predicament is where to go next, the airline are refusing to reconsider. I do truly think that they have made an honest mistake, based on limited information, prior to departure time. I understand and agree safety is paramount, but airlines should also operate in a fair manner. I'm glad all other passengers on the flight were not unduly delayed, but surely the airline has a responsibility to all passengers.
This was in my view, a discriminatory and negligent action carried out by the airline, choosing to eject us because of their subjective assumption, grouping us all as guilty.
I'd be grateful for advice that anyone could offer, perhaps similar scenarios where an airline was held accountable for its actions taken in a similar scenario to mine.
I'm happy to offer more information should anyone require.
I'm looking for assistance on what do with my scenario detailed below. This account is 100% accurate and I'd appreciate if responses would bear this in mind.
I was a member of a party of 10 football supporters returning from a recent European match. The booking comprised of 1 group of 5, with the remainder having made individual bookings. All 10 passengers boarded successfully, although there was a minor incident at the final departure gate.
I was aware of a disturbance involving another group of 4 female passengers. This involved one of them, quite clearly in an anxious state, loudly proclaiming to the staff that she refused to travel with a group of drunken Scottish football fans. She was refused permission to travel. The remainder of her group proceeded towards the aircraft. Our group then proceeded towards boarding. I was the last group member to hand over my pass. The woman was still demanding to board, initially stating we were all drunk before changing her position to a fear of flying. The ground staff politely confirmed that our group has passed 3 checks prior to final boarding and the only person deemed to be unfit to fly was the aggrieved woman. An appeal to the captain of the flight had been made and ground staffs were awaiting a response on the decision of non boarding. After a period of 10 mins or so this passenger was granted permission to fly and joined the aircraft.
Our group was scattered in the final 5/6 rows at the rear of the aircraft. We assumed take off was imminent. Several of our group were then warned that we had placed a female passenger's safety at risk and that we should mind our language. The passenger who complained was the same passenger who had initially been denied boarding.
After a short while, we were then informed that we were being denied permission to fly and being ejected from the flight. No unruly or disrespectful behaviour came from our group, nor had there been any further 'warnings' from the cabin crew. They said the captain’s decision was final. We were escorted off the aircraft by the local police, who in turn photocopied our passports before returning them.
We all had to make our own way home, due to lack of available flights that evening, all had to remain overnight. 5 Made it to Liverpool, 3 to Newcastle, approx 14 hours later and 2 (including myself to Glasgow, some 34 hours later). Not much good when your vehicle is in Manchester.
I returned to the airport the following day, considerably upset at the incident, but wishing to ascertain the full facts (from the airlines perspective) prior to raising a formal complaint
I managed to speak to the ground staff member who had initially refused the female passenger permission to fly. She could not believe that we were ejected on the grounds of being drunk and that she had would be filing a report on the incident as far as she saw it. (Of course this may have been her training, listening to concerns and defusing any possible situation.
The only definite flight out was operated by our original carriers, however in order to fly we would have to purchase additional tickets, hugely inflated price and sign a disclaimer. She could not have been more sympathetic of our plight and managed to obtain 2 seats with another operator on the basis of a no show.
For additional background info, five of the group were not drinking, either being the minibus driver or having to drive when we reached our home destination. The remainder had drunk very little, and I can confirm that there was no excessive drinking whatsoever.
Now my predicament is where to go next, the airline are refusing to reconsider. I do truly think that they have made an honest mistake, based on limited information, prior to departure time. I understand and agree safety is paramount, but airlines should also operate in a fair manner. I'm glad all other passengers on the flight were not unduly delayed, but surely the airline has a responsibility to all passengers.
This was in my view, a discriminatory and negligent action carried out by the airline, choosing to eject us because of their subjective assumption, grouping us all as guilty.
I'd be grateful for advice that anyone could offer, perhaps similar scenarios where an airline was held accountable for its actions taken in a similar scenario to mine.
I'm happy to offer more information should anyone require.
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Thanks for the response. I've already written to the airline asking them to remedy the situation, however they dismissed it as being within their rights, quoting articles and schedules that I'd quoted as fully adhereing to.
Perhaps each booking (6) should serve a small claims cases in Scotland ?
Perhaps each booking (6) should serve a small claims cases in Scotland ?
Last edited by aScottishBloke; 4th Feb 2008 at 19:07.
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If you feel you have a contractual dispute with the carrier, then as has been suggested, and as you probably already know, take the matter to court. There the matter can be dealt with not on the basis of what is fair, but on the basis of what is law.
The problem with putting forward your case here on a professional pilots website (passenger forum) is that any "advice" is going to be a mix of opinion (some good, some bad), anecdote, and information that is unlikely to resolve the situation for you. You state that :
That may be so, but only from your point of view. Even in court it is unlikely that yours will be the only submission.
From the point of view of one airline captain and speaking generally, I can tell you that we carry tens of thousands of passengers every year and percentage wise there are very few that give rise to any difficulty. Sometimes for various reasons including similar situations to the one you describe, it does happen that we are asked to decide on a passengers suitability for carriage. When that happens it is usually a very short time before the flight is scheduled to depart. It is at a time when we are busy attending to other pre-flight requirements. It is not a time when we are best disposed to leaving the aircraft to have to make a quick assessment or adjudication in such matters.
In the United Kingdom, the Air Navigation Order, gives us statutory authority to remove any individual or group of individuals that we decide could be a threat to the safety or regularity of the flight for various reasons. In order to assist us in the proper exercise of that authority we rely on cabin crew and various ground personnel to notify us of their concerns or pass on information that may be relevant. Our decision is final (albeit the decision may never be made because it has been taken prior to boarding).
In addition there is a contractual position between the airline and the passenger. This is contained within the General conditions of carriage and any specific conditions that may be attached. These will usually be contained within the box you tick, that is required as part of the purchase conditions. As such you have contractually agreed to be carried subject to these conditions. The wording in the relevant part of the contract, will require the purchaser to acknowledge that the behaviour of the the passenger or any member of their group must in the opinion of the aircraft commander or other staff, be acceptable. That acceptance would include such matters as : drunkenness; loud or disruptive behaviour; obscene or profane language. However there are many situations that may also give rise to sufficient concern that the removal of an individual or group of individual passengers is desirable. In this matter the Captains decision is final in all cases.
I would point out that on any given flight, everybody involved is trying to ensure that the aircraft is dispatched in a safe and timely manner. In other words we just want everybody on board, sat in the right seats, briefed properly and off we go. These days everyone involved in the task is expected to look for behaviour that in some way is out of the normal. Obviously there are groups of travellers that do draw attention, and sometimes in the case of stag/hen parties, football supporters etc. These groups do intentionally seek to draw attention. Of course that doesn't imply that their behaviour is automatically unacceptable and usually it is fine. However my point is that it is often being watched. In such groups poor behaviour ( or a minor incident ?) that occurs with one of the group, might well cause the entire group to be offloaded. Sometimes it is simply too difficult, or time will not allow such distinction or discrimination to be made. That is unfortunate, but is contractually covered within the booking terms, and certainly within the statutory authority of the commander.
Despite this, if you are properly advised that you have a case for breach of contract, then you should seek redress through the proper channels.
The problem with putting forward your case here on a professional pilots website (passenger forum) is that any "advice" is going to be a mix of opinion (some good, some bad), anecdote, and information that is unlikely to resolve the situation for you. You state that :
This account is 100% accurate and I'd appreciate if responses would bear this in mind.
From the point of view of one airline captain and speaking generally, I can tell you that we carry tens of thousands of passengers every year and percentage wise there are very few that give rise to any difficulty. Sometimes for various reasons including similar situations to the one you describe, it does happen that we are asked to decide on a passengers suitability for carriage. When that happens it is usually a very short time before the flight is scheduled to depart. It is at a time when we are busy attending to other pre-flight requirements. It is not a time when we are best disposed to leaving the aircraft to have to make a quick assessment or adjudication in such matters.
In the United Kingdom, the Air Navigation Order, gives us statutory authority to remove any individual or group of individuals that we decide could be a threat to the safety or regularity of the flight for various reasons. In order to assist us in the proper exercise of that authority we rely on cabin crew and various ground personnel to notify us of their concerns or pass on information that may be relevant. Our decision is final (albeit the decision may never be made because it has been taken prior to boarding).
In addition there is a contractual position between the airline and the passenger. This is contained within the General conditions of carriage and any specific conditions that may be attached. These will usually be contained within the box you tick, that is required as part of the purchase conditions. As such you have contractually agreed to be carried subject to these conditions. The wording in the relevant part of the contract, will require the purchaser to acknowledge that the behaviour of the the passenger or any member of their group must in the opinion of the aircraft commander or other staff, be acceptable. That acceptance would include such matters as : drunkenness; loud or disruptive behaviour; obscene or profane language. However there are many situations that may also give rise to sufficient concern that the removal of an individual or group of individual passengers is desirable. In this matter the Captains decision is final in all cases.
I would point out that on any given flight, everybody involved is trying to ensure that the aircraft is dispatched in a safe and timely manner. In other words we just want everybody on board, sat in the right seats, briefed properly and off we go. These days everyone involved in the task is expected to look for behaviour that in some way is out of the normal. Obviously there are groups of travellers that do draw attention, and sometimes in the case of stag/hen parties, football supporters etc. These groups do intentionally seek to draw attention. Of course that doesn't imply that their behaviour is automatically unacceptable and usually it is fine. However my point is that it is often being watched. In such groups poor behaviour ( or a minor incident ?) that occurs with one of the group, might well cause the entire group to be offloaded. Sometimes it is simply too difficult, or time will not allow such distinction or discrimination to be made. That is unfortunate, but is contractually covered within the booking terms, and certainly within the statutory authority of the commander.
Despite this, if you are properly advised that you have a case for breach of contract, then you should seek redress through the proper channels.
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Bealzebub,
Thank you for giving such a comprehensive reply. My aim was to seek information on the role of the captain and the procedures that should be followed. You have certainly provided that.
I'm aware that only my side of the story has been presented, and should I challenge at court then there will be another viewpoint to consider.
I appreciate the powers a captain may have at his disposal giving the right to dispose of passengers who may pose a threat to the flight. Had the captain consulted with ground staff he would then have been aware that the passenger making the complaint was the same person whom final departure had refused boarding. This I feel was completely overlooked, perhaps there were other pressures to consider, such as routine procedures that have to be followed prior to take off. I believe that rather than spend time dealing with this issue, the easier option was to eject football supporters so that the flight could carry on towards the destination at the scheduled time. Ground staff, with whom I spoke to the following day, confirmed the events and behaviour of the complaining passenger and agreed that they would be making a formal report of the incident.
Regarding the General conditions of carriage, the agreement to travel should be binding on both sides. I fully signed up to this at point of booking and as such, unless I breach those terms, which I fully complied with, then it is the airline that has broken the contract.
I fully agree safety is paramount, respecting the captains authority in all matters. With this position of authority comes responsibility, and this is where I feel let down. By not taking all accounts into consideration, for whatever reason, I believe the captain has been negligent when disposing such authority.
Regards
Billy
Thank you for giving such a comprehensive reply. My aim was to seek information on the role of the captain and the procedures that should be followed. You have certainly provided that.
I'm aware that only my side of the story has been presented, and should I challenge at court then there will be another viewpoint to consider.
I appreciate the powers a captain may have at his disposal giving the right to dispose of passengers who may pose a threat to the flight. Had the captain consulted with ground staff he would then have been aware that the passenger making the complaint was the same person whom final departure had refused boarding. This I feel was completely overlooked, perhaps there were other pressures to consider, such as routine procedures that have to be followed prior to take off. I believe that rather than spend time dealing with this issue, the easier option was to eject football supporters so that the flight could carry on towards the destination at the scheduled time. Ground staff, with whom I spoke to the following day, confirmed the events and behaviour of the complaining passenger and agreed that they would be making a formal report of the incident.
Regarding the General conditions of carriage, the agreement to travel should be binding on both sides. I fully signed up to this at point of booking and as such, unless I breach those terms, which I fully complied with, then it is the airline that has broken the contract.
I fully agree safety is paramount, respecting the captains authority in all matters. With this position of authority comes responsibility, and this is where I feel let down. By not taking all accounts into consideration, for whatever reason, I believe the captain has been negligent when disposing such authority.
Regards
Billy
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Billy,
I do not wish to disilluision you, but I gave you a general view of what often happens in such situations rather than
The Captain is under no obligation to seek any further information from anybody, nor is he/she required to witness or observe the passenger or group. The captain simply has to be of the opinion that the passenger/s are unsuitable for carriage for whatever reason, in order to offload them or refuse carriage. I am afraid that, rather like a pub landlord, the captain can refuse carriage to anybody for whatever reason unless that reason is in itself unlawful. I think your suggestion of negligence is something of a non-starter, since it is not negligent to exclude a passenger. I have done it many times in the last 25 years, and have never heard of a claim based on the commanders negligence resulting from any such action on the part of any aircraft commander ?
Breach of contract between you and the airline, would very much depend on what the contract states. Despite what you would hope, contracts are normally written by the seller to protect the sellers interests.The contract is indeed binding on both sides, however only insomuch as what it actually states, not what you wished it should state.
From what you have said ( and I am still curious about this minor incident at the departure gate ?) I cannot see how the captain has been negligent as you have provided no information in support of such a contention. There doesn't appear to be a tort , only a theoretical claim for damages from a breach of contract, if indeed there actually was one that adversely impacted you.
As I said in the previous reply you should seek proper legal advice.
I do not wish to disilluision you, but I gave you a general view of what often happens in such situations rather than
the procedures that should be followed.
Breach of contract between you and the airline, would very much depend on what the contract states. Despite what you would hope, contracts are normally written by the seller to protect the sellers interests.The contract is indeed binding on both sides, however only insomuch as what it actually states, not what you wished it should state.
From what you have said ( and I am still curious about this minor incident at the departure gate ?) I cannot see how the captain has been negligent as you have provided no information in support of such a contention. There doesn't appear to be a tort , only a theoretical claim for damages from a breach of contract, if indeed there actually was one that adversely impacted you.
As I said in the previous reply you should seek proper legal advice.
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Saintsman,
You know, you could be right (though I guess you were just being racist!). It really does happen.
Often, people from other countries or cultures can indeed mistake a strong Scottish accent and dialect as drunkenness.
You know, you could be right (though I guess you were just being racist!). It really does happen.
Often, people from other countries or cultures can indeed mistake a strong Scottish accent and dialect as drunkenness.
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a scottish bloke,
Sounds like you had a raw deal. In reality, the rules and laws in aviation are heavily weighted against the pax, and as has been pointed out, the courts uphold what is legal, and not what is fair.
Sounds like you were pretty badly discriminated against, and really airline crew should take a bit more care about such things. There may be laws allowing the offload of pax, but airlines need to give it some thought when they do it, instead of making unjustified and unqualified assumptions.
If you can afford it, get a good lawyer, and sue them for anything and everything.
Sadly some airlines don't give a s**t about thier paying customers. If you cannot seek redress through legal channels, just make a point of letting everyone in the football club know the crass way this airline behaves, and maybe some will choose a different airline next time.
Sounds like you had a raw deal. In reality, the rules and laws in aviation are heavily weighted against the pax, and as has been pointed out, the courts uphold what is legal, and not what is fair.
Sounds like you were pretty badly discriminated against, and really airline crew should take a bit more care about such things. There may be laws allowing the offload of pax, but airlines need to give it some thought when they do it, instead of making unjustified and unqualified assumptions.
If you can afford it, get a good lawyer, and sue them for anything and everything.
Sadly some airlines don't give a s**t about thier paying customers. If you cannot seek redress through legal channels, just make a point of letting everyone in the football club know the crass way this airline behaves, and maybe some will choose a different airline next time.
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The minor incident I refer to was on passing through final departure gate.
We were aware of a scene, involving a group of girls at the desk. It appeared they were arguing amonst themselves. As we approached, the girls split up, leaving one behind. She started shouting on about not flying with drunken scottish football fans, the girls shouted back at her to get a grip.
She was then informed that she would not be flying due to her state. She argued she wasn't drunk, it's them (us). The ground staff quoted they are fine, it's you that's deemed unfit. She then said she's only anxious due to her fear of flying. We all passed through whilst she had to wait upon an appeal to the captain for clearance to fly.
10 minutes later she joined the aircraft and then immediately complained to cabin crew/captain regarding her concern/fear.
Next thing we know is the request to leave, no appeal, just get off and find your own way home.
It was all so surreal, so I do forgive anyone who thinks this is too true to believe and that there must be some blame attributable to our group.
I've never experienced this beheaviour before. Shocked and stunned to say the least. I'm very anxious re flying but had taken the last of my prescribed medicines (diazepam and beta blockers) just prior to boarding, only to be ejected.
Felt sorry for the bloke whom I sat next to on a standby flight the following night. I sat in the crash position for 3 hrs bricking it. Just wish i'd been on the ball to complain to the captain that everyone was making me scared and feeling unsafe. Perhaps I would have been the only passenger left if the captain demonstrated the same attributes as the one the previous day.
We were aware of a scene, involving a group of girls at the desk. It appeared they were arguing amonst themselves. As we approached, the girls split up, leaving one behind. She started shouting on about not flying with drunken scottish football fans, the girls shouted back at her to get a grip.
She was then informed that she would not be flying due to her state. She argued she wasn't drunk, it's them (us). The ground staff quoted they are fine, it's you that's deemed unfit. She then said she's only anxious due to her fear of flying. We all passed through whilst she had to wait upon an appeal to the captain for clearance to fly.
10 minutes later she joined the aircraft and then immediately complained to cabin crew/captain regarding her concern/fear.
Next thing we know is the request to leave, no appeal, just get off and find your own way home.
It was all so surreal, so I do forgive anyone who thinks this is too true to believe and that there must be some blame attributable to our group.
I've never experienced this beheaviour before. Shocked and stunned to say the least. I'm very anxious re flying but had taken the last of my prescribed medicines (diazepam and beta blockers) just prior to boarding, only to be ejected.
Felt sorry for the bloke whom I sat next to on a standby flight the following night. I sat in the crash position for 3 hrs bricking it. Just wish i'd been on the ball to complain to the captain that everyone was making me scared and feeling unsafe. Perhaps I would have been the only passenger left if the captain demonstrated the same attributes as the one the previous day.
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From what I've read so far it would appear that you have been a lot kinder to the airline (than they were to you) by not naming them! If you intend to take legal action then don't name them. However, if you're not going to go down the legal route NAME and SHAME. Mind you, most of us have already figured out which one it was. 
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I held back the name of the airline and team that we support so as not to influence any comments.
Don't know what the obvious airlines would be, but in our case it was not ryanair or easyjet.
I/we do intend to go down the legal route, I'll fire one final letter to the airline confirming our intention to go to court. I wanted to know if there were any precedents to call upon.
Cheers
Don't know what the obvious airlines would be, but in our case it was not ryanair or easyjet.
I/we do intend to go down the legal route, I'll fire one final letter to the airline confirming our intention to go to court. I wanted to know if there were any precedents to call upon.
Cheers
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I don't mean to pry, and nor do I mean to appear rude, but I have read this thread again from the start. In the first post you stated that :
In your 4th post you added the additional information that :
It is not entirely clear from your postings as to whether you were drinking any alcohol at all. You stated that :
Presumably "we" would infer you were in the first group that were not drinking, however I ask because it seems that one of the stipulations regarding the use of your medication is that :
As I understand what you have subsequently added you :
I feel there is more to this story despite what you say. However if what you say is accurate then you really should stop looking for advice on this website and consult a solicitor for proper, considered and balanced advice. Once you have this (and it shouldn't cost a lot) then decide on what action you want to take. All this name & shame nonsense will achieve nothing for you, unless you simply want to sound off here and put the matter behind you.
This account is 100% accurate and I'd appreciate if responses would bear this in mind.
I've never experienced this beheaviour before. Shocked and stunned to say the least. I'm very anxious re flying but had taken the last of my prescribed medicines (diazepam and beta blockers) just prior to boarding, only to be ejected.
For additional background info, five of the group were not drinking, either being the minibus driver or having to drive when we reached our home destination. The remainder had drunk very little, and I can confirm that there was no excessive drinking whatsoever.
Avoid alcohol while taking diazepam. Alcohol may increase drowsiness and dizziness caused by diazepam. Alcohol may also increase the risk of having a seizure if diazepam is being taken for a seizure condition.
Felt sorry for the bloke whom I sat next to on a standby flight the following night. I sat in the crash position for 3 hrs bricking it. Just wish i'd been on the ball to complain to the captain that everyone was making me scared and feeling unsafe.
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aScottishBloke
You have said that when the girl in question boarded the aircraft she immediately complained to the cabin crew and the captain. May I ask you to tell us how she managed to complain to the captain? Was he out of his cockpit?
And does a Scot normally refer to himself as a bloke? To me that's that's how an Englishman refers to himself.
You have said that when the girl in question boarded the aircraft she immediately complained to the cabin crew and the captain. May I ask you to tell us how she managed to complain to the captain? Was he out of his cockpit?
And does a Scot normally refer to himself as a bloke? To me that's that's how an Englishman refers to himself.
then 
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The compaint was made to the captain via a member of the cabin crew who in turn relayed his instruction back that we were offski, end of story, out....
I'll refrain from rambling any further and simply ask if there are any precedents that I may call upon with regards to seeking redress.
Thanks again all, i've really appreciated the responses.
I'll refrain from rambling any further and simply ask if there are any precedents that I may call upon with regards to seeking redress.
Thanks again all, i've really appreciated the responses.
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Have you read today's newspaper stories about the so-called "steel band terrorists"?
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3315495.ece
Strictly speaking it's not a legally binding precedent as it's only a County Court decision, but still could be useful for your complaint to the airline.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3315495.ece
Strictly speaking it's not a legally binding precedent as it's only a County Court decision, but still could be useful for your complaint to the airline.
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aScottishBloke, this article in The Times today may be of relevance to you. It would appear in some cases at least one can be compensated for being thrown off a flight.
It involves a group ordered off, having not done anything wrong, apparently on the basis of one passenger's complaints to the crew.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3315495.ece
It involves a group ordered off, having not done anything wrong, apparently on the basis of one passenger's complaints to the crew.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3315495.ece