Things I always wanted to know as a passenger
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'When I joined BOAC, I received regular training and demonstration films of experimental ditching of a large VC10 model in a water tank, together with extensive instruction of wave formations and how to handle ditching with regard to wave direction and wind effect. Done the right way, very little damage will occur- the engines are designed to come off easily and pass under the wing for aircraft like 747. It is vital to be slow and to avoid a wingtip digging-in as in the Ethiopian 767 which ditched wing down. Planes will float like corks, especially if the wing is intact and reasonably empty of fuel. On the top of wings is a nice ring to take a line from the cabin and provide a base from which to get people onto the wing and launch liferafts. It will work, and with little structural damage. It has several times. There was even a Japan Airlines DC8 that ditched into Tokyo Bay. It was recovered and repaired and actually flew again as a passenger plane.'
I can understand the theory of egress from a ditched airliner such as a Boeing 747 or VC10 with the wings acting as a buoyancy aid.
But what happens if, for example, you're approaching BHD on a Dash 8 or a BAe 146 and there's no option other than a controlled ditching into Belfast Lough?
The wings on these aircraft are above the doors and windows so presumably means of egress would be beneath the surface of the not so clean water - or would these aircraft come to rest in an attitude which would keep at least one door above the surface?
I can understand the theory of egress from a ditched airliner such as a Boeing 747 or VC10 with the wings acting as a buoyancy aid.
But what happens if, for example, you're approaching BHD on a Dash 8 or a BAe 146 and there's no option other than a controlled ditching into Belfast Lough?
The wings on these aircraft are above the doors and windows so presumably means of egress would be beneath the surface of the not so clean water - or would these aircraft come to rest in an attitude which would keep at least one door above the surface?
Paxing All Over The World
The 146 is designed to float slightly nose up. The rear doors are then (ahem) unavailable and all exit is via the front two doors. Cannot say for the Dash as I have not been on it (until next month) but the 146 and I are old friends.
Last edited by PAXboy; 7th Nov 2007 at 17:35.
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So if for some reason the front part of an 146 is deformed in case of a ditching all hope is lost..
I am happy I am flying on an ATR tomorrow.
I am happy I am flying on an ATR tomorrow.
Engines..
I am not sure which one is which. But I rather avoid an aircraft with engines rather than hair dryers.
Btw. When on a full ATR (regardless if it is a 42 or 72), I feel that an evacuation within 90 second and half the doors in-op is not possible. I know it is an irrational fear but it resides with me given that I don't feel likewise with other aircraft. I know that the ATR is certified and all but still...
Rwy in Sight
Btw. When on a full ATR (regardless if it is a 42 or 72), I feel that an evacuation within 90 second and half the doors in-op is not possible. I know it is an irrational fear but it resides with me given that I don't feel likewise with other aircraft. I know that the ATR is certified and all but still...
Rwy in Sight
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Rwy, the 146 is I believe known as one of the sturdiest aircraft flying - it was designed for short, hard landings, etc .... there is no reason to avoid them in the slightest.
Plus, it has 4 engines - plenty of resilience
Plus, it has 4 engines - plenty of resilience
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'The 146 is designed to float slightly nose up. The rear doors are then (ahem) unavailable and all exit is via the front two doors. Cannot say for the Dash as I have not been on it (until next month) but the 146 and I are old friends'.
Alright then. Here's a scenario. Say the pilot executes a perfect ditching and the good old 'whisperjet' is bobbing around providing entertainment for the patrons of Cultra Yacht Club with its rear doors partially (or wholly submerged) but front doors clear of the water.
I'm a non swimmer but I've prepared for ditching by putting on my lifejacket which I know I mustn't inflate inside the aircraft.
I'm also hoping my whistle will be loud enough and my flashing light bright enough to attract the attention of the wealthy North Down boat owners who by this stage are doubtless heading to the scene.
Now I'm going to ask a serious question which I hope someone can answer - what happens next?
Everyone will want off that aircraft before it slides beneath the Belfast Lough shipping channel. Ergo everyone will head for the exits. But no matter how orderly this is, the distribution of weight inside the 146 will change presumably affecting its attitude in the water.
So how precisely do cabin crew direct passengers to evacuate the aircraft bearing in mind the more people who move towards the front, the closer to the waterline the exits will become.
Meanwhile, presumably, the tail will rise bringing the rear doors clear of the surface.
Can any member of cabin or flight deck crew tell me precisely what they have been told to do in this situation?
Alright then. Here's a scenario. Say the pilot executes a perfect ditching and the good old 'whisperjet' is bobbing around providing entertainment for the patrons of Cultra Yacht Club with its rear doors partially (or wholly submerged) but front doors clear of the water.
I'm a non swimmer but I've prepared for ditching by putting on my lifejacket which I know I mustn't inflate inside the aircraft.
I'm also hoping my whistle will be loud enough and my flashing light bright enough to attract the attention of the wealthy North Down boat owners who by this stage are doubtless heading to the scene.
Now I'm going to ask a serious question which I hope someone can answer - what happens next?
Everyone will want off that aircraft before it slides beneath the Belfast Lough shipping channel. Ergo everyone will head for the exits. But no matter how orderly this is, the distribution of weight inside the 146 will change presumably affecting its attitude in the water.
So how precisely do cabin crew direct passengers to evacuate the aircraft bearing in mind the more people who move towards the front, the closer to the waterline the exits will become.
Meanwhile, presumably, the tail will rise bringing the rear doors clear of the surface.
Can any member of cabin or flight deck crew tell me precisely what they have been told to do in this situation?
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The situation is the same with exits in a ditching for some 737 types i.e. fwd/o'wing exits only.
I assume that the problem resolves itself since although people are moving forward, they are also getting off - the aircraft is also getting lighter by several tonnes at the same time - this is a guess, so I may be incorrect.
The thing with ditching is, you have to have a plan. I can see that it's not a very promising plan in some ways, and certainly fraught with danger - it is, however, much easier to pick holes in the existing plans than it is to come up with an alternative.
I assume that the problem resolves itself since although people are moving forward, they are also getting off - the aircraft is also getting lighter by several tonnes at the same time - this is a guess, so I may be incorrect.
The thing with ditching is, you have to have a plan. I can see that it's not a very promising plan in some ways, and certainly fraught with danger - it is, however, much easier to pick holes in the existing plans than it is to come up with an alternative.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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frequent flyer- you are obviously in a very picky mood! Try this:
Not everybody can cluster around the front exit. It's very limited (see what happens when the engines shut off- you can't move until the door opens). So the aeroplane is not going to tip nose down in the water. As people exit, more will take their place. So nothing happens- the balance remains the same. It will work. Done correctly, the fuselage will remain intact and the aeroplane will float happily for as long as required. Even the wings should remain intact providing fantastic buoyancy.
May I suggest prolonging this discussion is a waste of time? Unless you have any positive contributions or ideas?
Not everybody can cluster around the front exit. It's very limited (see what happens when the engines shut off- you can't move until the door opens). So the aeroplane is not going to tip nose down in the water. As people exit, more will take their place. So nothing happens- the balance remains the same. It will work. Done correctly, the fuselage will remain intact and the aeroplane will float happily for as long as required. Even the wings should remain intact providing fantastic buoyancy.
May I suggest prolonging this discussion is a waste of time? Unless you have any positive contributions or ideas?
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Alright - the first part of my post referring to Cultra Yacht Club and wealthy North Down boat owners was perhaps an innapropriate Friday night attempt at humour. But the question was a serious one and not intended to be picky. The title of this forum is Passengers and SLF. I fly fairly often and can't swim. In the event (albeit very unlikely) of an aircraft on which I'm travelling having to 'put down on water' I would be totally reliant on my lifejacket and the instructions of the cabin crew. I've often thought about this while taking off from or approaching BHD over Belfast Lough. There must also be the potential for the ditching in Lough Neagh of an aircraft either departing from or arriving at BFS. We are frequently told the most likely scenario for an aircraft going 'in the drink' is when departing from or arriving at an airport close to an expanse of water. I simply wanted any advice the professionals could give me on how this piece of SLF could give himself the best possible chance of surviving such an incident.
Just one minor fly in the ointment with ditching, which seems to be gleefully ignored or glossed over, especially in our climate is hypothermia.
Just how long is the survival time for an exposed body in the North Atlantic, Irish Sea or North Sea, even when equipped with a life jacket. From (very dusty) memory, in summer it might stretch to a couple of hours, but in this season of the year it comes down to a few minutes, so I guess that your whistle and light are just there to keep you entertained as you freeze to death......
Just how long is the survival time for an exposed body in the North Atlantic, Irish Sea or North Sea, even when equipped with a life jacket. From (very dusty) memory, in summer it might stretch to a couple of hours, but in this season of the year it comes down to a few minutes, so I guess that your whistle and light are just there to keep you entertained as you freeze to death......
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When I posted my original query I was thinking about a mishap over Belfast Lough while approaching or departing BHD. However, bearing these survival times in mind perhaps my positive contribution - as suggested by Rainboe - should be to suggest the same provision of liferafts on short domestic flights as on long transoceanic flights. I'm sure RFD at Dunmurry could provide something nifty for the 146/Embraer 145/Dash 8-400 in the same way as they provide liferafts for Boeing 747's etc. If an aircraft ever did end up bobbing around on the Lough - it's highly unlikely but not totally impossible - and a lack of liferafts was found by an inquiry to have led to the deaths of people who might otherwise have survived there would be a public outcry. Were there any liferafts on the ATR which ditched off Sicily? If there weren't would their availability have led to a larger number of survivors?
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Liferafts are both heavy and bulky, and so loading them on domestic flights would have immediate cost and profit implications. The thing about safety is that it is always a compromise between the likelihood of there being a quantifiable safety benefit and the costs. We may be uncomfortable with this, but it is essentially the same process as is involved with life insurance. The safest aircraft that could be built would never leave the ground.
I don't think that there is a body of evidence that the provision of life rafts would substantially enhance survivability in short-haul ditching (If I'm wrong, apologies and please advise). There have been numerous accidents on both take-off and landing where the aircraft has finished up unexpectedly in water, of varying depth and temperature (e.g USAir 737-400 NN461US at LaGuardia) - The best advice for all passengers IMO remains thus - Know where your nearest exit is, know the brace position and know how to fit a lifejacket and when to inflate it. These three points, combined with a single-minded determination to get out will substantially improve your chances of surviving most survivable accidents/incidents.
The hypothermia issue is of course, quite correct: It is also true that ditching an aircraft is an inherently dangerous procedure: Surely, the point is that, while recognizing the above, there still has to be a workable procedure for an evac into water: The odds may be against survival, but we still have to have a plan that is more robust than "Sorry, you've had your chips!!!"
I don't think that there is a body of evidence that the provision of life rafts would substantially enhance survivability in short-haul ditching (If I'm wrong, apologies and please advise). There have been numerous accidents on both take-off and landing where the aircraft has finished up unexpectedly in water, of varying depth and temperature (e.g USAir 737-400 NN461US at LaGuardia) - The best advice for all passengers IMO remains thus - Know where your nearest exit is, know the brace position and know how to fit a lifejacket and when to inflate it. These three points, combined with a single-minded determination to get out will substantially improve your chances of surviving most survivable accidents/incidents.
The hypothermia issue is of course, quite correct: It is also true that ditching an aircraft is an inherently dangerous procedure: Surely, the point is that, while recognizing the above, there still has to be a workable procedure for an evac into water: The odds may be against survival, but we still have to have a plan that is more robust than "Sorry, you've had your chips!!!"
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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Liferafts are extremely heavy, and in a planned scenario must be removed from their stowage before ditching. In which case they are useable and can be launched from the door....bearing in mind the aeroplane is, in this story, intact. But why would you want to leave it? If the aeroplane breaks up, they are not useable anyway just when the survivors would be flailing around in the water totally unable to find them, so they are absolutely useless when you most need them. However, shorthaul aircraft in a planned scenario would not chose ditching as opposed to crash landing anyway, so not needed anyway. Therefore there is no case for shorthaul aircraft to go through the expense of permanently equipping. On our ETOPs 737, we have 3 liferafts for 138 max headds, at a weight of 180kgs. They are big and bulky and take up valuable overhead bin space, and at 60kgs each take a lot of manoeuvring and strength to move.
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Cabin lights dimmed for t/o or landing
You need to get to an exit before you can get out, hence the emergency lighting that includes the aisles, ceilings and exit signs. Yours eyes need to adjust to the low level of light produced by the emergency lighting, which takes longer than than the time you may have to evacuate.
North Atlantic I believe is 30 mins or less. It is a very cold place even in summer.
6
Last edited by 6chimes; 12th Nov 2007 at 18:06.
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Tightslot,
You say, 'know the brace position'. What use is that if the seats are so close together that you cannot adopt said position. Personally, I've always been amazed that airlines get away with it. The brace position was developed from research into survivability, and based upon experience of injuries experienced when aircraft crash (including kegworth), but on many airlines it cannot be done, as the seat in front is too close.
I'm not trying to be picky, its just that I know you work in the industry, and I'm not sure how they square it.
You say, 'know the brace position'. What use is that if the seats are so close together that you cannot adopt said position. Personally, I've always been amazed that airlines get away with it. The brace position was developed from research into survivability, and based upon experience of injuries experienced when aircraft crash (including kegworth), but on many airlines it cannot be done, as the seat in front is too close.
I'm not trying to be picky, its just that I know you work in the industry, and I'm not sure how they square it.