'Heathrow voted least favourite airport'.
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From the poll that started this:
Clearly, no-one who has travelled through Manila or most any airport in the Asian sub continent voted.
Not, of course, that it would be a good thing to compare the chaos at LHR with any of them.
Lars
The 20 worst performers
London, Heathrow Airport / Chicago, O'Hare International
New York, JFK
Atlanta, Hartsfield Int
Los Angeles Int
Miami Int
New York, La Guardia
Paris, Charles de Gaulle
Dallas Fort Worth
Neward Liberty Int
London Gatwick
Cancun Int
Toronto Pearson Int
Las Vegas, McCarran
Frankfurt Int
London Stansted
Orlando Int
Denver
San Franscisco Int
Amsterdam Schipol
London, Heathrow Airport / Chicago, O'Hare International
New York, JFK
Atlanta, Hartsfield Int
Los Angeles Int
Miami Int
New York, La Guardia
Paris, Charles de Gaulle
Dallas Fort Worth
Neward Liberty Int
London Gatwick
Cancun Int
Toronto Pearson Int
Las Vegas, McCarran
Frankfurt Int
London Stansted
Orlando Int
Denver
San Franscisco Int
Amsterdam Schipol
Not, of course, that it would be a good thing to compare the chaos at LHR with any of them.
Lars
Bealine et al......
>>>>"Much as I agree with most of the post on Heathrow, I can't see what your problem is Donkey!
25 minutes for immigration and the baggage to appear is good when you compare it to US standards for non-USA passport holders - especially if the immigration staff were processing fifteen flights!"<<<<<
My point was: 20 minutes to get to immigration, 10 minutes without moving in a "Priority" queue, another 15 minutes in another immigration queue after giving up on the fast-track queue , 5 minutes to get to the luggage belts and a ten minute wait after all that meant that it was an hour after disembarking before we got to customs.
I have flown through Atlanta eight times this year, so far, and I have never taken more than 20 minutes after disembarking to clear through customs, even when stopped for a "detail" check.
Being en-route back home from a ten day trip round various parts of the far east in comparison to other airports which handle significant levels of passengers our "National Gateway" is more of a National Chokepointas well as a National Disgrace.
Our entire airport network in this country has been neglected and starved of investment over a long period and the result is that the poor long suffering passengers who ultimately pay the wages of the airlines, airports, security staff, immigration & customs officers etc. & Ferrovial are consistently treated as an inconvenience at best and usually asthough they were something you'd scrape off your shoe in the street.
What Heathrow needs, is probably not T5, which might be a stop gap at best, but a complete re-think. The existing four terminals whould be better able to handle the current and predicted levels of passengers with some better organisation. It should be possible in this country to switch seamlessly between air road and rail at airports, schedules should match. I mean, if Holland, France & Germany can manage it, why not us?
Tell me the answers to the following:
Why are our airports not set up to serve the travelling public?
Why are so many airport employees lacking in interpersonal skills?
Why are there inconsistent rules for different flights?
What possible reason could there be for security screening passengers who have arrived on international and transcontinental flights before allowing them onto domestic flights? Other than of course our airports can't work out a way to have transfer passengers shift between terminals on the airside, rather than forcing them to transit groundside........
Why is OK for workmen to wander through security screening queues, loaded down with tools & cleaning materials (over 500ml in spray canisters) wearing safety shoes etc., and pass through the loops with tools and liquids unscreened yet passengers are dragooned into taking laptops out of hand baggage, removing coats and shoes and having these all x-rayed? - Very definitely a case of don't do as I do, do as I say.
>>>>"Much as I agree with most of the post on Heathrow, I can't see what your problem is Donkey!
25 minutes for immigration and the baggage to appear is good when you compare it to US standards for non-USA passport holders - especially if the immigration staff were processing fifteen flights!"<<<<<
My point was: 20 minutes to get to immigration, 10 minutes without moving in a "Priority" queue, another 15 minutes in another immigration queue after giving up on the fast-track queue , 5 minutes to get to the luggage belts and a ten minute wait after all that meant that it was an hour after disembarking before we got to customs.
I have flown through Atlanta eight times this year, so far, and I have never taken more than 20 minutes after disembarking to clear through customs, even when stopped for a "detail" check.
Being en-route back home from a ten day trip round various parts of the far east in comparison to other airports which handle significant levels of passengers our "National Gateway" is more of a National Chokepointas well as a National Disgrace.
Our entire airport network in this country has been neglected and starved of investment over a long period and the result is that the poor long suffering passengers who ultimately pay the wages of the airlines, airports, security staff, immigration & customs officers etc. & Ferrovial are consistently treated as an inconvenience at best and usually asthough they were something you'd scrape off your shoe in the street.
What Heathrow needs, is probably not T5, which might be a stop gap at best, but a complete re-think. The existing four terminals whould be better able to handle the current and predicted levels of passengers with some better organisation. It should be possible in this country to switch seamlessly between air road and rail at airports, schedules should match. I mean, if Holland, France & Germany can manage it, why not us?
Tell me the answers to the following:
Why are our airports not set up to serve the travelling public?
Why are so many airport employees lacking in interpersonal skills?
Why are there inconsistent rules for different flights?
What possible reason could there be for security screening passengers who have arrived on international and transcontinental flights before allowing them onto domestic flights? Other than of course our airports can't work out a way to have transfer passengers shift between terminals on the airside, rather than forcing them to transit groundside........
Why is OK for workmen to wander through security screening queues, loaded down with tools & cleaning materials (over 500ml in spray canisters) wearing safety shoes etc., and pass through the loops with tools and liquids unscreened yet passengers are dragooned into taking laptops out of hand baggage, removing coats and shoes and having these all x-rayed? - Very definitely a case of don't do as I do, do as I say.
Paxing All Over The World
Well, there's a challenge I'll take!! My replies are my own view, as I have never worked in the airline world.
Why are our airports not set up to serve the travelling public?
Airports were always seen as a 'service' and developed ad hoc over many years with no central planning. Also, in their defence, LHR has never been given the money to have a 'big sweep'. That is, to start almost from scratch. They have always had to stay within the central area. When they did break out of it (T4) it was already too small (not enough money spent on it?) and the inter-connections with the central area were/are disastrous.
They could never get more land and they could not close down one terminal for two years to pull it down and start again. This led to a long period of Mend-And-Make-Do. Then the Conservative govt decided to privatise it as 'they' would put the money in - but then hobbled them with the price cap. So, instead of having a capitalist system, they wanted the best of both worlds - to not put in central money and yet control it. So, inevitably, we got the worst of both worlds.
Why are so many airport employees lacking in interpersonal skills?
I think this stems from the time when it was a civil service department. Although it was privatised 20 odd years ago, it is almost impossible to change the culture of an organisation. The British Airports Authority had been in place for too long and were/are too set in their ways.
From civil servants to private employees was overnight but they were the same people doing the same jobs. As new people came in they learnt the old way of doing it. Yes, I know that they had new training but when they got out into the offices and operational areas, they would have found themselves surrounded by the old crowd. Naturally, not all BAA staff would have been in that category but my 30 years of working in a range of commercial and governmental organisations tells me that changing the culture is an uphill job.
So, it is my long considered view that the situation is (pun intended) terminal!! They do not have the space to redevelop and the cost of doing almost anything is now frighteningly high because of the decades of inaction. BA finally got their way to have their own place and have convinced themselves that they can do their own thing and give their pax a good experience. Sorry to always be the Cassandra, but I doubt that it will work out that way.
BAA will be split up but it will not fix the problem. The problem will be solved by people going elsewhere and then the airlines finally banging the table but this might need a new generation of managers, rather than the old boys club that has kept CAA and BAA and the old carriers scratching each other's back for too long. I sit to be corrected.
Why are there inconsistent rules for different flights?
Can you define that more closely? Do you mean with regards to check-in, security, boarding, luggage?
Why are our airports not set up to serve the travelling public?
Airports were always seen as a 'service' and developed ad hoc over many years with no central planning. Also, in their defence, LHR has never been given the money to have a 'big sweep'. That is, to start almost from scratch. They have always had to stay within the central area. When they did break out of it (T4) it was already too small (not enough money spent on it?) and the inter-connections with the central area were/are disastrous.
They could never get more land and they could not close down one terminal for two years to pull it down and start again. This led to a long period of Mend-And-Make-Do. Then the Conservative govt decided to privatise it as 'they' would put the money in - but then hobbled them with the price cap. So, instead of having a capitalist system, they wanted the best of both worlds - to not put in central money and yet control it. So, inevitably, we got the worst of both worlds.
Why are so many airport employees lacking in interpersonal skills?
I think this stems from the time when it was a civil service department. Although it was privatised 20 odd years ago, it is almost impossible to change the culture of an organisation. The British Airports Authority had been in place for too long and were/are too set in their ways.
From civil servants to private employees was overnight but they were the same people doing the same jobs. As new people came in they learnt the old way of doing it. Yes, I know that they had new training but when they got out into the offices and operational areas, they would have found themselves surrounded by the old crowd. Naturally, not all BAA staff would have been in that category but my 30 years of working in a range of commercial and governmental organisations tells me that changing the culture is an uphill job.
So, it is my long considered view that the situation is (pun intended) terminal!! They do not have the space to redevelop and the cost of doing almost anything is now frighteningly high because of the decades of inaction. BA finally got their way to have their own place and have convinced themselves that they can do their own thing and give their pax a good experience. Sorry to always be the Cassandra, but I doubt that it will work out that way.
BAA will be split up but it will not fix the problem. The problem will be solved by people going elsewhere and then the airlines finally banging the table but this might need a new generation of managers, rather than the old boys club that has kept CAA and BAA and the old carriers scratching each other's back for too long. I sit to be corrected.
Why are there inconsistent rules for different flights?
Can you define that more closely? Do you mean with regards to check-in, security, boarding, luggage?
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Why are so many airport employees lacking in interpersonal skills?
Good service in this country is so very hard to find.
What possible reason could there be for security screening passengers who have arrived on international and transcontinental flights before allowing them onto domestic flights?
Why is OK for workmen to wander through security screening queues, loaded down with tools & cleaning materials (over 500ml in spray canisters) wearing safety shoes etc., and pass through the loops with tools and liquids unscreened yet passengers are dragooned into taking laptops out of hand baggage, removing coats and shoes and having these all x-rayed? - Very definitely a case of don't do as I do, do as I say.
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25 minutes for immigration and the baggage to appear is good when you compare it to US standards for non-USA passport holders -
NEWARK AIRPORT THREE WEEKS AGO - Immigration queue 90 minutes (only one flight being processed).
But isn't that a bit like comparing apples to oranges?
25 minutes for an EU passport holder to get into their own country.
How long does it take an American to get in to the US?
At Heathrow T2, there are normally only 2 or 3 EU desks open, and 15 -18 non EU.
Compare that to the USA, where the ratio is often much closer to 1 to 1.
(MCO, 10 desks for visitors, 8 for USA passport holders)
NEWARK AIRPORT THREE WEEKS AGO - Immigration queue 90 minutes (only one flight being processed).
But isn't that a bit like comparing apples to oranges?
25 minutes for an EU passport holder to get into their own country.
How long does it take an American to get in to the US?
At Heathrow T2, there are normally only 2 or 3 EU desks open, and 15 -18 non EU.
Compare that to the USA, where the ratio is often much closer to 1 to 1.
(MCO, 10 desks for visitors, 8 for USA passport holders)
Quote:
Why are so many airport employees lacking in interpersonal skills?
Which ones? BAA? Or contractors? Or retail? Or all? If you meant all of them.....well, I don't think they're that much worse than the resk of the UK, especially London, in general.
Good service in this country is so very hard to find.
Quote:
What possible reason could there be for security screening passengers who have arrived on international and transcontinental flights before allowing them onto domestic flights?
How would you feel if you were on a London-Glasgow flight, and you person sitting next to you had not been screened for that flight. But don't worry, he's been screened at some out of the way airport in another continent where security was on lunch break at the time......So that's OK then.
Quote:
Why is OK for workmen to wander through security screening queues, loaded down with tools & cleaning materials (over 500ml in spray canisters) wearing safety shoes etc., and pass through the loops with tools and liquids unscreened yet passengers are dragooned into taking laptops out of hand baggage, removing coats and shoes and having these all x-rayed? - Very definitely a case of don't do as I do, do as I say.
Well, I've never seen this, I have to say. Where was it? Every day at work I have to go through security at LHR to get to my workplace. I have had all sorts of things confiscated and we have to take our coats and shoes off, and get frisked randomly. I'm assuming you reported this?
Why are so many airport employees lacking in interpersonal skills?
Which ones? BAA? Or contractors? Or retail? Or all? If you meant all of them.....well, I don't think they're that much worse than the resk of the UK, especially London, in general.
Good service in this country is so very hard to find.
Quote:
What possible reason could there be for security screening passengers who have arrived on international and transcontinental flights before allowing them onto domestic flights?
How would you feel if you were on a London-Glasgow flight, and you person sitting next to you had not been screened for that flight. But don't worry, he's been screened at some out of the way airport in another continent where security was on lunch break at the time......So that's OK then.
Quote:
Why is OK for workmen to wander through security screening queues, loaded down with tools & cleaning materials (over 500ml in spray canisters) wearing safety shoes etc., and pass through the loops with tools and liquids unscreened yet passengers are dragooned into taking laptops out of hand baggage, removing coats and shoes and having these all x-rayed? - Very definitely a case of don't do as I do, do as I say.
Well, I've never seen this, I have to say. Where was it? Every day at work I have to go through security at LHR to get to my workplace. I have had all sorts of things confiscated and we have to take our coats and shoes off, and get frisked randomly. I'm assuming you reported this?
Re-Screening:- Frankly, sitting on a shorthaul flight from LHR to somewhere else beside someone who was last screened somewhere else is not a problem. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Being blunt about it, the whole point about screening is to pick up any weapons or potential weapons in cabin baggage. You cannot screen for any potential terrorist intentions in the passengers themselves, and if you have such intentions you'd get a much better impact [no pun intended] using a bigger inbound aircraft rather than a smaller outbound regional aircraft.
You also have the discrepancy whereby you can arrive on a domestic flight, change gates with your next boarding pass already issued at your origin and board the flight without any further checks. So why not the same on an international flight, after all you can check your baggage through to your end destination without having to re-check it, so why not for the self loading freight?
Screening of Contractors:- This happened on Friday the 2nd of November between around 13:00 at the screening line at the left hand side of the domestic departures gate when a bunch of cleaners and contractors jumped the queue from the staff security gate in the corner beside the screening line. As to reporting this, yes both my colleague and myself queried this with the security staff and the line supervisor and we were told that these were pre-screened airport employees and that full screening would restrict their movements too much to do their job and wasn't necessary under the security guidelines as they were pre-screened. We were not exactly convinced by this but got no other response and for our pains had a fine tooth comb applied to our cabin baggage.
Yes, my chain was well and truly yanked, to within an inch of snapping by all and sundry at Heathrow last Friday.
I generally expect a poor experience at LHR, but last weeks was the worst yet.
Isn't this where a concerted approach by a number of people to the newspapers could really jerk the chain at DfT, LHR etc? If we could get a concerted campaign going (like the one building up to get rid of Ian Blair) sooner or later the politicians would take notice and screw Dft and CAA.
When I see (as happened) the X ray screener on the fasttrack at T4 get up and walk away, and the whole line stopped for over 10 minutes without anybody doing anything about it, it reinforces my belief that public floggings and hangings are needed amongst 'management' (they're not really worthy of the name!) at LHR. Added to the fact that there's ALWAYS one gateway closed.
When I see (as happened) the X ray screener on the fasttrack at T4 get up and walk away, and the whole line stopped for over 10 minutes without anybody doing anything about it, it reinforces my belief that public floggings and hangings are needed amongst 'management' (they're not really worthy of the name!) at LHR. Added to the fact that there's ALWAYS one gateway closed.
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Nobody from Central Europe flying C or F class would now even think to connect to a long haul though LHR. Since Emirates is now serving also secondary airports across Europe we have a far better alternative through DXB. If BAA / BA thinks that they might be able to turn the wheel back in the future they must be day dreaming!
If you fly Y you might consider LHR only if the price is very very low.
My negative list is as follows:
LHR
LAX
JFK
FRA ( the 45 minute MCT is totally unrealistic ! )
FCO
MXP
BOS
Frank
If you fly Y you might consider LHR only if the price is very very low.
My negative list is as follows:
LHR
LAX
JFK
FRA ( the 45 minute MCT is totally unrealistic ! )
FCO
MXP
BOS
Frank
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Nobody from Central Europe flying C or F class would now even think to connect to a long haul though LHR.
It would appear that the customer service British Airways delivers, both on the ground and in the air, seems to compensate for the shambolic Heathrow experience!
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Totally agree with you bealine, BA emerged from B....y Awful category to B est A vailable.
However the "others" caught up especially in C and F, and they do not have the Heathrow burden.
Frank
However the "others" caught up especially in C and F, and they do not have the Heathrow burden.
Frank
But remember, Bealine, that the 'baggage tracing service' of BA is such a shambles that it could well be run by LHR management! To my mind, the redeeming features about BA are the check in staff, the cabin and flight crews, the people in the Exec Club lounges, and the ppeople on the end of the telephone at executive Club. BTW, are BA still running the 'engineers want spares' programme?
Some airports that are quicker to get through than Heathrow:
- Domodeveda (however you spell it)
- Mehrabad
- Lagos
- Cairo
- Manila
I live in Cairo: typically it takes less than ten minutes to get from my car to the lounge and less than twenty minutes (with hold luggage) to get from the plane to my car. And the toilets are cleaner than Heathrow..... So which is the third world?
- Domodeveda (however you spell it)
- Mehrabad
- Lagos
- Cairo
- Manila
I live in Cairo: typically it takes less than ten minutes to get from my car to the lounge and less than twenty minutes (with hold luggage) to get from the plane to my car. And the toilets are cleaner than Heathrow..... So which is the third world?
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But remember, Bealine, that the 'baggage tracing service' of BA is such a shambles that it could well be run by LHR management! To my mind, the redeeming features about BA are the check in staff, the cabin and flight crews, the people in the Exec Club lounges, and the ppeople on the end of the telephone at executive Club. BTW, are BA still running the 'engineers want spares' programme?
Reflectively, I think a lot of our customers are sticking with us because they know the problems aren't all the airline's making. BA has promised a wonderfully refreshing experience come Terminal 5 and this we simply must deliver! I can say that the building and its baggage system look mighty impressive, but we all know where the proof of the pudding is.............
Hey folks,
I hate to split hairs, but BA and Heathrow are not one and the same. BA may have improved, I can't personally comment on if they have or not as I haven't flown on them for more than a decade. As a student and a young engineer, traveliing for business they were pretty good & I would defend their customer care in those days to the death. But then they got too pricey & I haven't flown them since.
However, I have flown through Heathrow since day 1 of my flying life and in a large part, it hasn't changed a bit since my first flight. In places it certainly gives the impression that areas of it haven't been cleaned, painted or had any maintenance done in those 20 plus years.
As the primary port of entry into our country for the majority of travellers, all of the airlines and more importantly the travelling public should not just expect better, anyone in Heathrow's employ, either direct or indirect should take sufficient pride in their place of work to make it a better experience for the travelling public who ultimately ply their wages.
It's a pride and ethics thing, or maybe I'm too old fashioned.
Maybe Ferrovial can introduce a spanish work ethic into the workforce. It doesn't look as if it has anything to replace.
I hate to split hairs, but BA and Heathrow are not one and the same. BA may have improved, I can't personally comment on if they have or not as I haven't flown on them for more than a decade. As a student and a young engineer, traveliing for business they were pretty good & I would defend their customer care in those days to the death. But then they got too pricey & I haven't flown them since.
However, I have flown through Heathrow since day 1 of my flying life and in a large part, it hasn't changed a bit since my first flight. In places it certainly gives the impression that areas of it haven't been cleaned, painted or had any maintenance done in those 20 plus years.
As the primary port of entry into our country for the majority of travellers, all of the airlines and more importantly the travelling public should not just expect better, anyone in Heathrow's employ, either direct or indirect should take sufficient pride in their place of work to make it a better experience for the travelling public who ultimately ply their wages.
It's a pride and ethics thing, or maybe I'm too old fashioned.
Maybe Ferrovial can introduce a spanish work ethic into the workforce. It doesn't look as if it has anything to replace.
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I struggle to understand, with as much influence as it must have, how BA seems to be served worse than other airlines at LHR.
As a very regular traveller, it always seems to be BA flights which have to park on remote stands with passengers enduring an often highly uncomfortable sardine-tin bus ride to/from the aircraft.
And BA baggage (LHR not LGW) seems to be the one that now regularly takes one hour or more to be delivered to the carousel. Does not seem to be a problem for VS, LH, BD, SQ and MH, among others.
Would love to believe T5 will be the answer to everyone's prayers, but somehow doubt that will be the case, for some considerable time at least. Apparently, there will not initially be enough stands to cope with the number of movements!
As a very regular traveller, it always seems to be BA flights which have to park on remote stands with passengers enduring an often highly uncomfortable sardine-tin bus ride to/from the aircraft.
And BA baggage (LHR not LGW) seems to be the one that now regularly takes one hour or more to be delivered to the carousel. Does not seem to be a problem for VS, LH, BD, SQ and MH, among others.
Would love to believe T5 will be the answer to everyone's prayers, but somehow doubt that will be the case, for some considerable time at least. Apparently, there will not initially be enough stands to cope with the number of movements!
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I was booked from Bilbao to Aberdeen via Heathrow on Wednesday and not particularly looking forward to it for all the reasons previously posted on this thread but either things have improved or I was very lucky in my timing. At Flight Connections security, usually a severe bottleneck, there was no pre screening queue and passing into "security proper" I had the entire security team to myself and could even choose which X-Ray station to use. It was about 4:30 in the afternoon. Is this now the norm? Are things looking up?
The other change I noted is the new uniformed, USA style border guard immigration personnel.
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Apparently, there will not initially be enough stands to cope with the number of movements!
Also, you can look forward to the longest jetty in the world - at least a three minute walk from the gate to the aircraft door!
With the millions of pounds the architects were given for the job, how did they forget the most basic toilet facilities for the ramp staff - it beggars belief! However, by the time anyone realised the error, the 2 ft thick concrete ramp was already laid and smoothed so the poor chappies will have to put up with stinking and freezing Portaloos - and this at a 21st Century airport!
Paxing All Over The World
how did they forget the most basic toilet facilities for the ramp staff
One example: Less than 15 years ago a new theatre was opened in the UK and they found too late that some of seats had restricted views. That is, the most basic requirement that all the seats can see all the stage? No.
I can give others but won't bore you.