What about this for service?
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What about this for service?
Just interested in your opinion on this one.
BA have been getting a bit of a bashing on this fourm - so to be clear, the airline involved here was not BA.
Scenario, one of three flights booked in C on the same ticket on a major European airline. Ticket cost 1,360€.
Aircraft goes tech - that can happen to anyone, airline gets good recovery into place and flights is only 50 minutes late.
On board, take seat and "boarding complete" announcement made.
Then a load of people appear unannounced from the economy section and start taking seats in business.
I ask crew what is happening and reply is that too many pax for this aircraft (A320), so economy pax will sit in C.
Now let me say that I would not wish anyone to be left behind and if there are seats free (including the middle seat of 3 that this airline does not fill in C), they should be used to accommodate pax under these circumstances.
However, in effect this is an operational downgrade for business class pax.
All seats in C were full, fortunately all the excess Y pax were found a seat and travelled - that is good.
What I found very poor
1 - No pre announcement by CC of what was going to happen - they should treat the premium pax better than that
2 - The in flight service suffered as the C cabin now had 50% more occupants, e.g. English newspapers ran out well before my row
3 - No offer of compensation for converting the C cabin into Y
4 - CC apparently couldn't give a t*ss - no complaint forms handed out and didn't really wish to discuss anything - just "I do not have any information" to anyone asking
There was just announcement made that because the flight was full, don't ask for any extra drinks - only one service will be made - lovely job.
One C class pax got particularly incensed and the crew were quite dismissive, even though he was very polite.
So what do you all think of this?
BA have been getting a bit of a bashing on this fourm - so to be clear, the airline involved here was not BA.
Scenario, one of three flights booked in C on the same ticket on a major European airline. Ticket cost 1,360€.
Aircraft goes tech - that can happen to anyone, airline gets good recovery into place and flights is only 50 minutes late.
On board, take seat and "boarding complete" announcement made.
Then a load of people appear unannounced from the economy section and start taking seats in business.
I ask crew what is happening and reply is that too many pax for this aircraft (A320), so economy pax will sit in C.
Now let me say that I would not wish anyone to be left behind and if there are seats free (including the middle seat of 3 that this airline does not fill in C), they should be used to accommodate pax under these circumstances.
However, in effect this is an operational downgrade for business class pax.
All seats in C were full, fortunately all the excess Y pax were found a seat and travelled - that is good.
What I found very poor
1 - No pre announcement by CC of what was going to happen - they should treat the premium pax better than that
2 - The in flight service suffered as the C cabin now had 50% more occupants, e.g. English newspapers ran out well before my row
3 - No offer of compensation for converting the C cabin into Y
4 - CC apparently couldn't give a t*ss - no complaint forms handed out and didn't really wish to discuss anything - just "I do not have any information" to anyone asking
There was just announcement made that because the flight was full, don't ask for any extra drinks - only one service will be made - lovely job.
One C class pax got particularly incensed and the crew were quite dismissive, even though he was very polite.
So what do you all think of this?
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Well I know that if I had paid to fly in C class then I would not be happy at all for economy paying pax to simply 'fill' up the rest of the business seats. As an economy pap I would be very chuffed to be 'upgraded'. But the airline in question should have handled the situation in a much more professional manner.
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Happened to me some years ago on BMI. I fought (and got) some refund but even then they managed to get away with using the most expensive Y class and what I paid so ended up with about £50. TBH C class travel around Europe is pretty poor with most airlines anyway now. We've lost the 2 bag allowance, security is awful, rewards schemes have gone downhill over the last 5 years and the lounges are in the main poor. Easyjet for me these days wherever poss.
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That's well below the level of service I'd expect when travelling business class. It's happened to me a number of times and the norm seems to be a visit from a member of the CC to explain what is happening. One airline which seems to make a habit of this is Adria.
One of the reasons people buy business class is because of the exclusivity of the cabin, if for any reason the airline can't deliver the promised product they need to explain why and to make good their failure.
Manintheback
I'm regularly flying about in C class with 2 pieces of hand luggage. I think you'll find that particular restriction is strictly 'made in Britain' As regards business class being pretty poor there are many reasons why people may opt for a C or J class ticket. With me it's mainly flexability, ok, I could buy a fully flexable Y ticket but often there isn't a large price difference between that and a C class ticket. There is also the separate check-in and the dedicated lounges. Also, even in short haul European, you normally receive a much higher standard of service whilst on board. The combination of all those things does make for a more pleasant and stress free experience, for those who are expected to step off the plane and immediately start working this is extremely valuable.
One of the reasons people buy business class is because of the exclusivity of the cabin, if for any reason the airline can't deliver the promised product they need to explain why and to make good their failure.
Manintheback
I'm regularly flying about in C class with 2 pieces of hand luggage. I think you'll find that particular restriction is strictly 'made in Britain' As regards business class being pretty poor there are many reasons why people may opt for a C or J class ticket. With me it's mainly flexability, ok, I could buy a fully flexable Y ticket but often there isn't a large price difference between that and a C class ticket. There is also the separate check-in and the dedicated lounges. Also, even in short haul European, you normally receive a much higher standard of service whilst on board. The combination of all those things does make for a more pleasant and stress free experience, for those who are expected to step off the plane and immediately start working this is extremely valuable.
F3G you should name and shame the airline. If they treat their premium pax this way why should you protect them? Sounds to me like you got an a/c change from A321 to A320, so that makes it either Air France, Lufthansa or Iberia. Based on personal experience I'd put my money on Iberia 
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BRUpax
I agree that it was probably a 321 to a 320 change, as the airline in question operates both types.
In the interests of fairness, I won't name and shame just yet, since I have made a strong email complaint and will await the results of that and share the response and name the carrier at that stage - who knows, their response may show the company in a better light.
I will say it was not AF, LH or IB. This particular airline were not having the best of days, since I had just arrived from a long haul flight where it took over an hour to check me in because there was a problem on their computer with my F class ticket - not clever.
Manintheback
I agree that intra European business class is not too great, although LH still offer a decent service, especially with the new seats offering what feels like some more room.
Like SXB, I book C for flexibility.
SXB
If the CC had visited or even made an announcement, I would have felt a lot better. Also, I would have expected to be given a form and asked to complete it for some kind of redress, such as FF miles or a an upgrade on a Y ticket.
Jack
To be honest, the economy passengers didn't really have a lot to be chuffed about, since the service was pretty awful and the seating arrangement was the same as Y. The ones sitting next to me were very pleasant and at least I could be pleased that their travel plans were not disrupted.
I agree that it was probably a 321 to a 320 change, as the airline in question operates both types.
In the interests of fairness, I won't name and shame just yet, since I have made a strong email complaint and will await the results of that and share the response and name the carrier at that stage - who knows, their response may show the company in a better light.
I will say it was not AF, LH or IB. This particular airline were not having the best of days, since I had just arrived from a long haul flight where it took over an hour to check me in because there was a problem on their computer with my F class ticket - not clever.
Manintheback
I agree that intra European business class is not too great, although LH still offer a decent service, especially with the new seats offering what feels like some more room.
Like SXB, I book C for flexibility.
SXB
If the CC had visited or even made an announcement, I would have felt a lot better. Also, I would have expected to be given a form and asked to complete it for some kind of redress, such as FF miles or a an upgrade on a Y ticket.
Jack
To be honest, the economy passengers didn't really have a lot to be chuffed about, since the service was pretty awful and the seating arrangement was the same as Y. The ones sitting next to me were very pleasant and at least I could be pleased that their travel plans were not disrupted.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 8th Apr 2007 at 02:22.
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I'm still confused, F3G, and perhaps we've been down this road before.
What was it, other than a newspaper, that you didn't get in your C seat that you felt you were entitled to?
What was it, other than a newspaper, that you didn't get in your C seat that you felt you were entitled to?
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obgraham
If you can't understand from the facts presented, then I don't think that there is any point trying to explain further.
No doubt, when you go to the butchers and pay for a kilo of fillet steak, you are quite satisfied to receive 800 grams of sirloin.
If you can't understand from the facts presented, then I don't think that there is any point trying to explain further.
No doubt, when you go to the butchers and pay for a kilo of fillet steak, you are quite satisfied to receive 800 grams of sirloin.
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Airlines are quite entitled to upgrade whoever they wish to, I have no beef about that.
But if they sell C class on the basis that the cabin will have 2 x 2 seating and then fill 3 x 3, that is not an upgrade for anyone, but rather an operational downgrade for those who paid for 2 x 2.
Not only do you get less space, but the aircraft has been catered and staffed for 2 x 2, but there are now at least 50% more people receiving a service, which as a result is now not up to standard.
But if they sell C class on the basis that the cabin will have 2 x 2 seating and then fill 3 x 3, that is not an upgrade for anyone, but rather an operational downgrade for those who paid for 2 x 2.
Not only do you get less space, but the aircraft has been catered and staffed for 2 x 2, but there are now at least 50% more people receiving a service, which as a result is now not up to standard.
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So the C class in the airline in question is physically just the same as economy, 3x3, same width/pitch, except they hold the middle seat empty? And they charge C rates for that?
Okay, I'm clearer now. You have a beef.
Okay, I'm clearer now. You have a beef.
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Airlines are quite entitled to upgrade whoever they wish to, I have no beef about that.
But if they sell C class on the basis that the cabin will have 2 x 2 seating and then fill 3 x 3, that is not an upgrade for anyone, but rather an operational downgrade for those who paid for 2 x 2.
Not only do you get less space, but the aircraft has been catered and staffed for 2 x 2, but there are now at least 50% more people receiving a service, which as a result is now not up to standard.
But if they sell C class on the basis that the cabin will have 2 x 2 seating and then fill 3 x 3, that is not an upgrade for anyone, but rather an operational downgrade for those who paid for 2 x 2.
Not only do you get less space, but the aircraft has been catered and staffed for 2 x 2, but there are now at least 50% more people receiving a service, which as a result is now not up to standard.
Is it the case that they guarantee 2x2 seating, or that they assign for 2x2 seating, and only when necessary they utilize the 3x3 seating? It sounds like the latter may be the case. If they don't guarantee 2x2 then it sounds like they may be less receptive to your concerns.
You should try travelling in the US (or even on US carriers transatlantic). It became increasingly common there to upgrade frequent flyers from Y if there were seats remaining in F. Nowadays F is invariably 100% full on many US domestic sectors. There are often melees round the gate as the upgrades get ready to be distributed. Furthermore if there are any seats left unfilled it is common for a snitty shouted argument to develop between one or more Y pax and the CC at the curtain demanding the seat in question on the basis of their FF membership.
And yes, the extras like meal choices do then run out before reaching the genuine F passengers. As a result F revenue has gone down the tubes. Why pay extra to be crowded out like this ? What a short-sighted result.
And yes, the extras like meal choices do then run out before reaching the genuine F passengers. As a result F revenue has gone down the tubes. Why pay extra to be crowded out like this ? What a short-sighted result.
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As I haven't had a swift comeback to my complaint, let me name the airline
involved
SWISS
Middle Seat
Swiss advertises 2 x 2 seating in business on their website and promises to keep the middle seat free.
3 x 3 isn't business on a Swiss A320 - got it?
You said "Nobody seemed to have an issue with the 3x3, or at least none to my knowledge" - what do you expect C class pax to do - take out their frustrations on the Y pax? - I was charming to the 2 next to me, but I have a BIG ISSUE with the airline.
involved
SWISS
Middle Seat
Swiss advertises 2 x 2 seating in business on their website and promises to keep the middle seat free.
3 x 3 isn't business on a Swiss A320 - got it?
You said "Nobody seemed to have an issue with the 3x3, or at least none to my knowledge" - what do you expect C class pax to do - take out their frustrations on the Y pax? - I was charming to the 2 next to me, but I have a BIG ISSUE with the airline.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 10th Apr 2007 at 18:46.
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That's disappointing from Swiss, I use them a lot for both business and pleasure and their short haul C class is normally pretty good value and is normally always 2x2. The measure of any service provider is how they deal with a problem when it occurs, especially with premium pax, looks like they have failed on this occasion.
I knew that Swiss had an A320/A321 mix in their fleet but never considered them as potential culprits. Then again I suppose they could argue that they took a course of action which minimised the delay (at the expense of comfort). I would guess that most C class pax want to get to their destination asap. Had they kept the pax waiting several hours for another available A321 there may have been a few complaints too. They had to make a decision one way or the other. Just as a matter of interest what would you have done in their position F3G?
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I've already made my position clear in my first post
Now let me say that I would not wish anyone to be left behind and if there are seats free (including the middle seat of 3 that this airline does not fill in C), they should be used to accommodate pax under these circumstances.
No problem with the decision, big problem with the lack of care for people who paid full C fare.
They should refund the difference, since they didn't deliver their advertised service. C class pax should not subsidise management decisions to downgrade services.
Alternatively, if they don't wish to compensate C pax, they have to bump the extra Y pax onto another flight and safeguard the C service, a decision that would be harsh to the Y pax, but an airline can't have it both ways.
I've already made my position clear in my first post
Now let me say that I would not wish anyone to be left behind and if there are seats free (including the middle seat of 3 that this airline does not fill in C), they should be used to accommodate pax under these circumstances.
No problem with the decision, big problem with the lack of care for people who paid full C fare.
They should refund the difference, since they didn't deliver their advertised service. C class pax should not subsidise management decisions to downgrade services.
Alternatively, if they don't wish to compensate C pax, they have to bump the extra Y pax onto another flight and safeguard the C service, a decision that would be harsh to the Y pax, but an airline can't have it both ways.
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F3G why should Y class who have paid to be on that flight have to be bumped just to keep C class happy? What a pompous stance to take, unbelievable!
The cost of bumping the Y class pax would also be astronomical compared to refunding the difference between C and Y class fares.
The cost of bumping the Y class pax would also be astronomical compared to refunding the difference between C and Y class fares.
I actually agree with you F3G. I would have been highly peed off if it had been me - probably more so as I pay for C class tickets out of my own pocket. From your (and my) point of view they got it seriously wrong. Unfortunately, money is so tight these days that from their point of view they saved themselves a load of dosh, albeit at the expense of one or two unhappy pax (too many do-gooders and sheep out there who wouldn't bother to complain). You may well find that they will compensate you because you went to the trouble to complain.
I had a slightly similar type of thing happen to me some years ago with Cyprus Airways when they substituted a Eurocypria all Y configurated A320 instead of their own CY configured A320 on a BRU-LCA scheduled flight. We still got the C service but not the (dedicated seats) C comfort as advertised on their web. It took several patient (on my part) exchanges before they finally conceeded that they had not provided the promised ADVERTISED product and I was compensated. I bet I was the only one among the 10 or so C pax who took the trouble to complain. Most businesses won't offer compensation up front if they can avoid it. They'll just wait and see.
I had a slightly similar type of thing happen to me some years ago with Cyprus Airways when they substituted a Eurocypria all Y configurated A320 instead of their own CY configured A320 on a BRU-LCA scheduled flight. We still got the C service but not the (dedicated seats) C comfort as advertised on their web. It took several patient (on my part) exchanges before they finally conceeded that they had not provided the promised ADVERTISED product and I was compensated. I bet I was the only one among the 10 or so C pax who took the trouble to complain. Most businesses won't offer compensation up front if they can avoid it. They'll just wait and see.