Unbelievable BA story
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F3G.....Been away on a long trip so just returning now.
I have taken a breath of fresh bangladesh air and have calmed down somewhat from my first emotive posting.
Yes I totally understand where you are coming from. But I do feel that it is one of those situations whereby you need to be there to judge for yourself. I wonder what the situation would have been like if it had been a First class passenger who had died and had been left in the seat!?!?!?!
I have taken a breath of fresh bangladesh air and have calmed down somewhat from my first emotive posting.
Yes I totally understand where you are coming from. But I do feel that it is one of those situations whereby you need to be there to judge for yourself. I wonder what the situation would have been like if it had been a First class passenger who had died and had been left in the seat!?!?!?!
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Uncomfortable reading ...
The lack of compassion and common sense being demostrated by certain people on this thread is a terrible insight - showing
what an "I World" this has become.
F3G - Get over yourself. If an exalted and talented senior executive, with responsibilty for the "well being" of thousands of people, can't stop for a minute and see that sometimes it is necessary to understand that their own needs/desires/selfishness become secondary in certain situations then we really have a horrible future ahead of us. These 'situations' often require selflessness and exemplary behaviour - surely, also, character traits of a great leader?
Just hope that if this should happen to anyone on this thread that the people around them behave with the compassion and civility fitting the terrible event.
what an "I World" this has become.
F3G - Get over yourself. If an exalted and talented senior executive, with responsibilty for the "well being" of thousands of people, can't stop for a minute and see that sometimes it is necessary to understand that their own needs/desires/selfishness become secondary in certain situations then we really have a horrible future ahead of us. These 'situations' often require selflessness and exemplary behaviour - surely, also, character traits of a great leader?
Just hope that if this should happen to anyone on this thread that the people around them behave with the compassion and civility fitting the terrible event.
Last edited by HALFPINT; 27th Mar 2007 at 00:23. Reason: Typo
Está servira para distraerle.
One of the problems with senior executives,as one sometimes has to remind one's staff, is that they tend to view themselves as far too talented and exalted. By definition and in practice, they rarely have to pay for their own tickets, and they are but the company servants of the investors in their employer. Investors who may, in their turn, well be passengers on the same flight as that on which the self styled executive himself is travelling.
One really does cringe sometimes at the errant behaviour of some of these jumped up salesmen as they parade around the various 'exclusive' airport lounges, hardly behaving as ambassadors for the multi-national corporations for whom they work and generally attempting to ride roughshod over their own stockholders.
A little humility on the part of those who enjoy the privilige of comfortable travel funded in part by even the most impecunious shareholder travelling in economy, would be a refreshing addition into the self important world of the business traveller of today.
F3G
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Paddy
Welcome home. We may disagree from time to time,but I always value your perspective.
If a 1st pax died, I would feel exactly the same way. I certainly would not expect the body to be taken to J, W or Y. But proper stowage facilities should be provided on long haul IMHO and you and your colleagues should not have to make it up as you go along and try to balance different interests in a difficult time.
SXB sums it up pretty well for me in his last posting.
Capt Cynical
Lord Black, to you sonny boy, travelled by private jet, possibly to be insulated from buffoons like you. BTW innocent until proven guilty.
Cavorting Cheetah
I am awaiting PAXBoy to arrive and give you his well balanced view on the rise of management over the past 20 years. I shall not try to steal his thunder, since he makes the points better than I can.
However, I am not one of the executives for whom you seem to carry a chip on your shoulder and the real power brokers tend to have BBJs or Gulfstreams, so are not that often seen in exec lounges with the "riff raff" premium
travellers such as me.
Half Pint
The lack of common sense and humility is on the part of the airlines - see SXB's last post.
If you really work in PR in the airline industry, you demonstrate a stunning lack of grasp on the impact of these events on those premium pax who contribute to the airlines' coffers.
Welcome home. We may disagree from time to time,but I always value your perspective.
If a 1st pax died, I would feel exactly the same way. I certainly would not expect the body to be taken to J, W or Y. But proper stowage facilities should be provided on long haul IMHO and you and your colleagues should not have to make it up as you go along and try to balance different interests in a difficult time.
SXB sums it up pretty well for me in his last posting.
Capt Cynical
Lord Black, to you sonny boy, travelled by private jet, possibly to be insulated from buffoons like you. BTW innocent until proven guilty.
Cavorting Cheetah
I am awaiting PAXBoy to arrive and give you his well balanced view on the rise of management over the past 20 years. I shall not try to steal his thunder, since he makes the points better than I can.
However, I am not one of the executives for whom you seem to carry a chip on your shoulder and the real power brokers tend to have BBJs or Gulfstreams, so are not that often seen in exec lounges with the "riff raff" premium
travellers such as me.
Half Pint
The lack of common sense and humility is on the part of the airlines - see SXB's last post.
If you really work in PR in the airline industry, you demonstrate a stunning lack of grasp on the impact of these events on those premium pax who contribute to the airlines' coffers.
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Unedifying
F3G - Conrad Black flew in private jets so that his wife could stop feeling mortified about having to leave Manhattan dinner parties early to catch the flight back to London.
"They'll know we are flying scheduled" she is reported to have moaned.
You can't live life with everything being someone else's fault or problem.
Regardless of what money has been spent to give one privacy, ability to rest, better wines and food - we all have a collective responsibility with regard to other people and other people's misfortune.
"The same people that you must use on your way up
You might meet up your way down" Allen Toussaint
You attitude is so over the top - it's not even wrong.
You may be interested to know that a Wall Street analyst did some research on the correlation between NYSE listed Corporations and private jets. There was a definable link between a Corporation's underperfomance and the ownership and use of private jets. So much for all of us needing to understand the pressures facing the modern executive.
Was in PR F3G - but not now and never in the airline industry - but if I witnessed a senior executive from a known company helping someone out in a difficult situation I would look upon his company's products with new eyes. If I saw one step over a dead body - I would never buy anything from that person's company - ever. That's PR.
"They'll know we are flying scheduled" she is reported to have moaned.
You can't live life with everything being someone else's fault or problem.
Regardless of what money has been spent to give one privacy, ability to rest, better wines and food - we all have a collective responsibility with regard to other people and other people's misfortune.
"The same people that you must use on your way up
You might meet up your way down" Allen Toussaint
You attitude is so over the top - it's not even wrong.
You may be interested to know that a Wall Street analyst did some research on the correlation between NYSE listed Corporations and private jets. There was a definable link between a Corporation's underperfomance and the ownership and use of private jets. So much for all of us needing to understand the pressures facing the modern executive.
Was in PR F3G - but not now and never in the airline industry - but if I witnessed a senior executive from a known company helping someone out in a difficult situation I would look upon his company's products with new eyes. If I saw one step over a dead body - I would never buy anything from that person's company - ever. That's PR.
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HALFPINT
Maybe time to update your profile? It says PR.
I can't believe that you are missing the point entirely.
Go back and read SXB's post. if you don't like mine. He says it all in a reasonable tone.
As to PR, being splashed all over a broadsheet as BA were with this incident is surely a more compelling example than your personal reaction.
I repeat most FQTVs pay to travel in a premium class to reach the other end in good condition to do something important, they should receive that service.
In the case of force majeure, then all normal rules are suspended.
However, with an ageing population, the occurrence of deaths in flight is likely to rise, so could a death in flight be force majeure?
I am not a lawyer, so legally I don't know, but my interpretation of common sense says no, since the airline could reasonably make provisions for such an event.
10 deaths in flight would certainly be force majeure in my opinion and I'll leave others to debate where the line betwwn 1 and 1o should be drawn.
In summary, a well thought out provision for this circumstance is in everyone's best interests.
Maybe time to update your profile? It says PR.
I can't believe that you are missing the point entirely.
Go back and read SXB's post. if you don't like mine. He says it all in a reasonable tone.
As to PR, being splashed all over a broadsheet as BA were with this incident is surely a more compelling example than your personal reaction.
I repeat most FQTVs pay to travel in a premium class to reach the other end in good condition to do something important, they should receive that service.
In the case of force majeure, then all normal rules are suspended.
However, with an ageing population, the occurrence of deaths in flight is likely to rise, so could a death in flight be force majeure?
I am not a lawyer, so legally I don't know, but my interpretation of common sense says no, since the airline could reasonably make provisions for such an event.
10 deaths in flight would certainly be force majeure in my opinion and I'll leave others to debate where the line betwwn 1 and 1o should be drawn.
In summary, a well thought out provision for this circumstance is in everyone's best interests.
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F3G
It's about 50 years since I was called "sunny boy" I'll take that as a compliment to my still youthfull good looks!!!I wonder if the USA prison system recognises dubious UK pearages.
As to your description of me as only a "BUFFOON" Conrad would be most disapionted.
Last edited by capt.cynical; 27th Mar 2007 at 10:37. Reason: typo's
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CAPT CYNICAL
Nice to have made your day, one way of the other.
Strangely enough a prison sentence does not result in the loss of a peerage, e.g. Lord Archer, although some may think it should.
Nice to have made your day, one way of the other.
Strangely enough a prison sentence does not result in the loss of a peerage, e.g. Lord Archer, although some may think it should.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 27th Mar 2007 at 11:20. Reason: To add comment "although some may think it should"
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I still think some on this thread have missed the point, I think it unreasonable to criticise someone who would feel distressed sitting within proximity of someone who just died.The comments regarding CEO types are stereotypical generalisations cultivated by low quality media in the UK.
I think it's surprising that airlines have been allowed to ignore this problem for so long, after all it is their responsibilty to address all eventualities which could occur on their aircraft. Deaths onboard are a statistical certainty, simply dumping a body in a spare seat in F,J or Y is just not acceptable in my view.
I think it's surprising that airlines have been allowed to ignore this problem for so long, after all it is their responsibilty to address all eventualities which could occur on their aircraft. Deaths onboard are a statistical certainty, simply dumping a body in a spare seat in F,J or Y is just not acceptable in my view.
Paxing All Over The World
F3G
Thanks for compliment, although it just confirms that I had too many years to observe them at too close a quarter.
As it happens, I think that there may be another reason why I can contribute further to this discussion ... my current work involves me with bereaved people every week. Further, with the very recently bereaved. I am often speaking to them within 48 hours of the death and it can be less. And, No, I am not a funeral director or a vicar!
Firstly, the mgmt issue: I agree that long haul carriers are probably even now rethinking this problem. The newspaper blow up is one of the few things that moves corporates and the one that BA had was bad. The fact that the pax was misquoted and tried to correct the record is of no substance. The Y pax will think it funny and the C + F will think, "Ouch, that could be me next week."
A solution is available and Airbus have provided it in the 340 but my guess is that retro fitting the storage bay at a D-check is a non starter due cost and, besides, the problem is now. My guess is that they will look at body bags and the kind of lightweight stretcher that is used by the funeral trade for removals from domestic premises. BUT, as I have said before when this dicussion comes up - there is the thorny problem of having to stop resuscitation and then place the body into the zip up bag. Who decides that action is of the greatest import and will affect the decision by the carrier to provide body bags because - the moment you place them in the bag rather than under a blanket - you are saying that it really is over.
Now let us turn to consider the newly bereaved and we will assume that the deceased pax had one or more travelling companions. Given that the pax was able to board the flight it is obvious that the death was unexpected and, coupled with the location, that ensures that the shock factor to the newly bereaved will be at it's highest.
In the immediate hours following a death, some people wish to remain as close to the body as they can. It helps them to accept the death and, by constantly looking at and touching the body, to know that they are dead. They are frequently protective of the body and will protect it as if the person were still alive and may want no one else to touch the body. Some people want to be as far away from the body as possible. Many families - even with a quiet an expected death at home - will phone the funeral company at three in the morning and they want that body GONE and they want it GONE now.
Not many people know into which category they will fall before they are bereaved and certainly not under the circumstances that we are discussing. Consequently, you can place the body in a bag and slot it neatly away into the horizontal storage bay and the Sunday Trash will run the story: BA stuffed my mother into a bin liner and I was not even allowed to hold her hand. It was torture and I would hate someone else to go through blah blah blah.The individual's reaction will also depend heavily upon their cultural and religious background - so you can see the range of variables involved.
I think that's enough for now, all questions welcome and I am not being coy about my work, if you think it's important to know - then ask. But the one certainty is that none of us know how we are going to feel when we are bereaved - until the split second that it happens. Even with an expected death, the sense of unreality is overwhelming. And each bereavement is different from the one before and you will feel different. But logic and a measured reaction is not usually part of it - certainly not at FL360.
I am awaiting PAXBoy to arrive and give you his well balanced view on the rise of management over the past 20 years. I shall not try to steal his thunder, since he makes the points better than I can.
As it happens, I think that there may be another reason why I can contribute further to this discussion ... my current work involves me with bereaved people every week. Further, with the very recently bereaved. I am often speaking to them within 48 hours of the death and it can be less. And, No, I am not a funeral director or a vicar!
Firstly, the mgmt issue: I agree that long haul carriers are probably even now rethinking this problem. The newspaper blow up is one of the few things that moves corporates and the one that BA had was bad. The fact that the pax was misquoted and tried to correct the record is of no substance. The Y pax will think it funny and the C + F will think, "Ouch, that could be me next week."
A solution is available and Airbus have provided it in the 340 but my guess is that retro fitting the storage bay at a D-check is a non starter due cost and, besides, the problem is now. My guess is that they will look at body bags and the kind of lightweight stretcher that is used by the funeral trade for removals from domestic premises. BUT, as I have said before when this dicussion comes up - there is the thorny problem of having to stop resuscitation and then place the body into the zip up bag. Who decides that action is of the greatest import and will affect the decision by the carrier to provide body bags because - the moment you place them in the bag rather than under a blanket - you are saying that it really is over.
Now let us turn to consider the newly bereaved and we will assume that the deceased pax had one or more travelling companions. Given that the pax was able to board the flight it is obvious that the death was unexpected and, coupled with the location, that ensures that the shock factor to the newly bereaved will be at it's highest.
In the immediate hours following a death, some people wish to remain as close to the body as they can. It helps them to accept the death and, by constantly looking at and touching the body, to know that they are dead. They are frequently protective of the body and will protect it as if the person were still alive and may want no one else to touch the body. Some people want to be as far away from the body as possible. Many families - even with a quiet an expected death at home - will phone the funeral company at three in the morning and they want that body GONE and they want it GONE now.
Not many people know into which category they will fall before they are bereaved and certainly not under the circumstances that we are discussing. Consequently, you can place the body in a bag and slot it neatly away into the horizontal storage bay and the Sunday Trash will run the story: BA stuffed my mother into a bin liner and I was not even allowed to hold her hand. It was torture and I would hate someone else to go through blah blah blah.The individual's reaction will also depend heavily upon their cultural and religious background - so you can see the range of variables involved.
I think that's enough for now, all questions welcome and I am not being coy about my work, if you think it's important to know - then ask. But the one certainty is that none of us know how we are going to feel when we are bereaved - until the split second that it happens. Even with an expected death, the sense of unreality is overwhelming. And each bereavement is different from the one before and you will feel different. But logic and a measured reaction is not usually part of it - certainly not at FL360.
Está servira para distraerle.
Heavens above or below, what are the consequences if the body, so dexterously stuffed into a body bag, is actually alive but in a state of catatonic or alcoholic trance?
Life insurance companies and their assessors would have a field day with that, would they not? Suffocation at the hands of the crew would leave an untidy little wrangle.
The most judicious course of action might be to strap the suspected deceased into a seat in the cockpit where specially trained operatives, skilled in the avoidance of death, can keep a watchful eye on it. Some crews are even known to say prayers at moments of great stress and that would surely be a comfort to any relatives on board who would have to wait, because of security requirements, on the other side of the, as it were, mortuary door.
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PAXboy - a sensitive and measured response - exactly what is needed and especially by passengers at FL360.
My 'outrage' was stirred by the story of First Class passengers "stepping over" a body and how we seem to have evolved into a 'society' that positively fears and has trouble understanding death let alone the fact that some individuals have deluded themselves into thinking that they can pay to avoid the proximity and repurcussions of one of the two things in life that is certain.
All I am asking is that people show some humanity and understanding - regardless of how much they have paid for their ticket.
My 'outrage' was stirred by the story of First Class passengers "stepping over" a body and how we seem to have evolved into a 'society' that positively fears and has trouble understanding death let alone the fact that some individuals have deluded themselves into thinking that they can pay to avoid the proximity and repurcussions of one of the two things in life that is certain.
All I am asking is that people show some humanity and understanding - regardless of how much they have paid for their ticket.
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In that case Half Pint, you were well out of order to have a go at me, as I certainly did not condone people stepping over a body and expressed, several times, my sympathy for the deceased and relatives, as well as for the crews who have to deal with the aftermath.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 28th Mar 2007 at 09:13.
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This Unreasonable pasenger is after £££. What a selfish, uncompassionate, individual.
If it were his wife, mother, or child that had died on a long-haul flight would he not want to be treated with the same care and compassion as the grieving daughter of the deceased woman?? Given his attitude, he would have probably DEMANDED a venue other than economy and, not given a sh1t about other passengers.
Lets put some facts straight:
1. BA cabin crew can not declare a passenger dead, this has to be done by a medical professional. If not available onboard, this has to wait until landing, thus a body bag/storage facility is inappropriate. Storing someone in a corpse facility who has not been pronounced dead is a whole new law suit in waiting.
2. A diversion to declare a passenger dead would cause a lengthy delay (if there is an appropriate location to divert to); then logistics like where the body goes next has to be considered (is there space/adequate storage facilies in the hold, does the diversion airport have the right equipment/personal to service the aircraft?). On this flight WHERE would the passenger liked to have gone?? Kabul, Tehran, etc??
3. Crew rest facilities usually involve restriced access, i.e. up a narrow, staircase, with tight corners.
4. Airlines will not install facilities for bodies unless warranted to by a governing body. Why loose revenue (having to take out seats)? How many airlines other than SQ provide this facility? Do QF, SA, UA, CO, VS, CX, EK?? Think the answer is NO. At the end of the day a voluntary modification would have to be paid for. Would passengers be happy to loose legroom, have to pay for drinks in economy or have no individual IFE to finance this facility. I don't think so.
5. How do you think the crew felt? Cabin crew are usually recruited for their ability to have empathy. This was a no win situation. Do you upset a Premium customer? or console a grieving daughter who has just lost her mother? The decision will not have been taken lightly, it was a no win situation, someone was going to be unhappy. Do you risk a riot of 200+ people in the back or risk upseting one precious soul in first? Do you not think the crew involved have been traumatised by the situation? Especially those who had to carry the body?? To the likes of this selfish passenger the crew involved may have been nobodies, but when you are in a job where you try to keep everyone happy, do you not think as few of the crew involved have need serious therapy?
If it were his wife, mother, or child that had died on a long-haul flight would he not want to be treated with the same care and compassion as the grieving daughter of the deceased woman?? Given his attitude, he would have probably DEMANDED a venue other than economy and, not given a sh1t about other passengers.
Lets put some facts straight:
1. BA cabin crew can not declare a passenger dead, this has to be done by a medical professional. If not available onboard, this has to wait until landing, thus a body bag/storage facility is inappropriate. Storing someone in a corpse facility who has not been pronounced dead is a whole new law suit in waiting.
2. A diversion to declare a passenger dead would cause a lengthy delay (if there is an appropriate location to divert to); then logistics like where the body goes next has to be considered (is there space/adequate storage facilies in the hold, does the diversion airport have the right equipment/personal to service the aircraft?). On this flight WHERE would the passenger liked to have gone?? Kabul, Tehran, etc??
3. Crew rest facilities usually involve restriced access, i.e. up a narrow, staircase, with tight corners.
4. Airlines will not install facilities for bodies unless warranted to by a governing body. Why loose revenue (having to take out seats)? How many airlines other than SQ provide this facility? Do QF, SA, UA, CO, VS, CX, EK?? Think the answer is NO. At the end of the day a voluntary modification would have to be paid for. Would passengers be happy to loose legroom, have to pay for drinks in economy or have no individual IFE to finance this facility. I don't think so.
5. How do you think the crew felt? Cabin crew are usually recruited for their ability to have empathy. This was a no win situation. Do you upset a Premium customer? or console a grieving daughter who has just lost her mother? The decision will not have been taken lightly, it was a no win situation, someone was going to be unhappy. Do you risk a riot of 200+ people in the back or risk upseting one precious soul in first? Do you not think the crew involved have been traumatised by the situation? Especially those who had to carry the body?? To the likes of this selfish passenger the crew involved may have been nobodies, but when you are in a job where you try to keep everyone happy, do you not think as few of the crew involved have need serious therapy?
Last edited by Muizenberg; 31st Mar 2007 at 13:13. Reason: on advice
