BA cabin crew industrial strike?
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The 1% staff turnover figure that you give is astounding and the cost of seeing that figure go up will be a very high one for mgmt.
Playing devil's advocate, I could argue that 1% is too low and suggests a stagnating worksforce, 3-4% may be healthier in terms of succession planning.
Equally, a BA manager may regard 1% as indicating that their T&Cs are way above industry norms, see MITB's last post.
The 1% staff turnover figure that you give is astounding and the cost of seeing that figure go up will be a very high one for mgmt.
Playing devil's advocate, I could argue that 1% is too low and suggests a stagnating worksforce, 3-4% may be healthier in terms of succession planning.
Equally, a BA manager may regard 1% as indicating that their T&Cs are way above industry norms, see MITB's last post.
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Absolutely agree. A 1% turnover is too low, an element of new blood among the workforce is good, it stimulates the organisation.
One other point which is strangely absent from this thread is any details of what BA may be planning to do. There are some comments regarding general areas that might be affected but no details.
Does anyone have such details ?
Absolutely agree. A 1% turnover is too low, an element of new blood among the workforce is good, it stimulates the organisation.
One other point which is strangely absent from this thread is any details of what BA may be planning to do. There are some comments regarding general areas that might be affected but no details.
Does anyone have such details ?
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Yes but one also needs to remember that there has been almost ongoing recruitment of crew since 2003 with thousands of new crew coming into the picture. Im sure that 1% figure is not totally accurate and does not include natural waistage.,..e.g...those retiring etc. Personally I too think 1% seems a little wrong.
Im sure many would agree that flying out of LGW or LHR EF there are far more "fresher" faces for want of a better word flying about. And were creeping into LHR WW too particularly on the 767 longhaul fleet.
Im sure many would agree that flying out of LGW or LHR EF there are far more "fresher" faces for want of a better word flying about. And were creeping into LHR WW too particularly on the 767 longhaul fleet.
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I totally appreciate that Finals, I have actually heard that figure before in work. Id love to see that actual breakdown for myself to see how they came about with the 1% figure. We all know bean counters have a habit of manipulating figures to suit their own needs at times.
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This is quite interesting regarding the turnover of just 1%. I work with lots of longhaul crew at BA who at the moment are very angry. But the funny thing, is the fact that even if BA's management got through ALL the proposals they want, very very few would leave.
I have seen BASSA in action for so many years now and its the same boring old story. They instill fear into the crew, and then go onto this myriad of myths and lies. The MAIN problem is that they are run by a group of part time crew who have very little knowledge of what crew in BA REALLY want and NEED. A classic example was in 1994? when BA tried to bring in part time contacts for their cabin crew. BASSA said it was BA's way of IMPOSING partime on EVERY crew member. BA said no. A strike nearly ensued and yet 12 years later we have nearly 25% of our crew on a waiting list for part time,and at least 40%of our work force on some form of part time. A win/win all round I would say.
Some of our T/C's are so out of date it's a joke. One of our hardest trips this summer was a Mumbai nightstop. Horrible flight ex LHR leaving at 2200 and a 10hr+ day flight on the return. Yet there is a 5 day SIN trip where I earn 16 times the money in expenses/extras and the trip is a piece of
. Will BASSA try and change it? No way as its a nice trip the reps can go on. They NEVER do any of the hard trips as they have office duty on those days.
No it seems to me that a lot of what is happening at the moment is so the reps can keep their own T/C's within their union. There is so much more I could say!! Its always been the same old story whether in old communist Russia where the boys at the top had their own private car lanes on the roads of Moscow or some of this countries union top brass looking after THEMSELVES a la Mr. Scargill.
However its important to say that if WW got his way we would be in big trouble. But BASSA need to get real and negotiate what is important eg the pension and not the fact that BA have withdrawn a bus service from the central area of Heathrow so that our commuters from europe have to find their own way to our reporting centre. Its their choice where they live!!
But as usual BASSA just lump the important stuff with the rubbish. What do you expect with a bunch of amateurs running the show, when we could afford professional lawyers and negotiators with the £2 million + that go into BASSA's coffers.
I have seen BASSA in action for so many years now and its the same boring old story. They instill fear into the crew, and then go onto this myriad of myths and lies. The MAIN problem is that they are run by a group of part time crew who have very little knowledge of what crew in BA REALLY want and NEED. A classic example was in 1994? when BA tried to bring in part time contacts for their cabin crew. BASSA said it was BA's way of IMPOSING partime on EVERY crew member. BA said no. A strike nearly ensued and yet 12 years later we have nearly 25% of our crew on a waiting list for part time,and at least 40%of our work force on some form of part time. A win/win all round I would say.
Some of our T/C's are so out of date it's a joke. One of our hardest trips this summer was a Mumbai nightstop. Horrible flight ex LHR leaving at 2200 and a 10hr+ day flight on the return. Yet there is a 5 day SIN trip where I earn 16 times the money in expenses/extras and the trip is a piece of
. Will BASSA try and change it? No way as its a nice trip the reps can go on. They NEVER do any of the hard trips as they have office duty on those days.No it seems to me that a lot of what is happening at the moment is so the reps can keep their own T/C's within their union. There is so much more I could say!! Its always been the same old story whether in old communist Russia where the boys at the top had their own private car lanes on the roads of Moscow or some of this countries union top brass looking after THEMSELVES a la Mr. Scargill.
However its important to say that if WW got his way we would be in big trouble. But BASSA need to get real and negotiate what is important eg the pension and not the fact that BA have withdrawn a bus service from the central area of Heathrow so that our commuters from europe have to find their own way to our reporting centre. Its their choice where they live!!
But as usual BASSA just lump the important stuff with the rubbish. What do you expect with a bunch of amateurs running the show, when we could afford professional lawyers and negotiators with the £2 million + that go into BASSA's coffers.
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Then there is the famous policy advocated by jack Welch of GE which requires the dismissal of 10% of employees per year. Probably one of the more unacceptable faces of capitalism, but probably very good for the employer, and so very good for the shareholders. And as we (should) all know, it's the shareholders that really matter.
One suspects the only truly irreplacable employees in BA will be found in their IT department (and even that will only be true in the short term) and that is probably true of most of their competitors. One also suspects that the boys at the top know this.
One suspects the only truly irreplacable employees in BA will be found in their IT department (and even that will only be true in the short term) and that is probably true of most of their competitors. One also suspects that the boys at the top know this.
Last edited by slim_slag; 19th Dec 2006 at 21:53.
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Some of the comments on here are unbelievable..particularly the "management always win"..."its all been costed"...etc etc...
What those particular arguments conveniently forget are the shareholders..both institutional, and the private holders who will NEVER stand by whilst the company value is eroded by industrial action.
WW has a remit to follow...but make no mistake, that remit will only go so far, beyond that point he will find himself removed by the board.
Companies in the final analysis are about people, if the organization is to function then both sides need to come together....if this requires industrial action (still the most direct and effective form of getting managements attention) then so be it. Those of you on here who are angry about the inconvenience or hassle this may cause..get over it, perhaps your boss/employer has a few "efficiencies" waiting for you around the corner.
Yes the airline industry has changed, yes BASSA will have to change, but by the same token those at water world wont have much of a business to manage if they upset the troops to much at the coal-face.
What those particular arguments conveniently forget are the shareholders..both institutional, and the private holders who will NEVER stand by whilst the company value is eroded by industrial action.
WW has a remit to follow...but make no mistake, that remit will only go so far, beyond that point he will find himself removed by the board.
Companies in the final analysis are about people, if the organization is to function then both sides need to come together....if this requires industrial action (still the most direct and effective form of getting managements attention) then so be it. Those of you on here who are angry about the inconvenience or hassle this may cause..get over it, perhaps your boss/employer has a few "efficiencies" waiting for you around the corner.
Yes the airline industry has changed, yes BASSA will have to change, but by the same token those at water world wont have much of a business to manage if they upset the troops to much at the coal-face.
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One suspects the only truly irreplacable employees in BA will be found in their IT department (and even that will only be true in the short term) and that is probably true of most of their competitors. One also suspects that the boys at the top know this.
Having worked in telecommunications, that was subsumed into IT, for 27 years my guess is that the IT folk will only be paid enough to keep them and they will be made to feel as 'at risk' as anyone else. I say that because the T&Cs of IT have not kept pace with life during the past ten years and because SOP for corporates is to make everyone feel at risk - but not too much!
However, it is true that the importance of IT to any company cannot be undserstated. Without IT - nothing in the airline moves a muscle (or a hydraulic muscle
).
... both institutional, and the private holders who will NEVER stand by whilst the company value is eroded by industrial action.
I return to my theory that, noawdays, companies are not so bothered about things getting broken - as to how they get fixed. In previous decades, mgmt were trained to make sure that nothing got broken. Now they are trained to cut corners and just pick up the bits very quickly when it does break.
Previously, strike action was seen as failure, now it is a means to an end because the workforce and the customer no longer form large blocks of people, they are split into many differnt sub-groups that overlap like a Venn diagram factory smoking canabis!
When you had a large block of staff who would take action together and a large block of customers who were interested in the company - then things changed. Nowadays, the staff are split and the customer does not care if the company lives or dies - at least not in enough numbers. They also know that, if BA were to fold completely, it would all get bought up by others and alternative carriers would move in to provide the service. There would be some short term horrors for customers but not long term.
Once again, I am sorry that you folks are now going through the same changes that folks have been through in other working environments.
Last edited by PAXboy; 19th Dec 2006 at 22:38. Reason: to add reply to h1, as that appeared during my post.
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Ah, but I never said all in IT were irreplaceable, just that IT is the department where you will find the employees who are. I bet the top 10% of the IT department are doing very well indeed and will be treated with kid gloves. The other 90% of IT are as replaceable as the 99.99% of employees in the other departments. Just a hunch.....
And i know a company depends on it's employees to survive, but management don't need the goodwill of all of them, just enough to get you to the stage where you have replaced half the ones who have left.
And i know a company depends on it's employees to survive, but management don't need the goodwill of all of them, just enough to get you to the stage where you have replaced half the ones who have left.
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return to my theory that, noawdays, companies are not so bothered about things getting broken - as to how they get fixed. In previous decades, mgmt were trained to make sure that nothing got broken. Now they are trained to cut corners and just pick up the bits very quickly when it does break.
If it does break down into little pieces...its worth a lot less to those who wish to purchase it, ohhhhh and don't forget the damage to the brand as well
The employees (if they stick together) have the power in this one
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Haughtney1 - make no mistake, the institutional shareholders want to see the unions and perceived militancy at BA broken once and for all, the pension issues sorted, and they dont want a fudge. The cost to the major shareholders in the overall scheme of things is tiny, the cost to the employees is the end of their job in the industry. I would suspect few can afford not to work for more than a week or two unpaid.
Re-visit the comments here in 6 months and I guess we will see whats happened one way or the other.
Re-visit the comments here in 6 months and I guess we will see whats happened one way or the other.
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It has lately become difficult to make an informed decision as to whether AI is right. Whislt we all need to defend what we've worked hard for, we need to know exactly what's on the table. So far, the only party communicating any regular information to crew is BA (taken with a very large degree scepitism) via ess. On the BASSA website there is no update. Why is that?
Whilst we know the 'bones' of the issues no one has communitcated in black and white, EXACTLY what BA propose to do and EXACTLY what BASSA prospose back. Both parties are accussing each other of the same crimes. Refusing to talk. I undertand talks are top secret, but how can we make up our minds without knowledge? The ballot forms are in the post and we're in the dark.
Not going in BASSA's favour is the latest text saying that if crew don't provide an overwhelling support for AI, then they'll have to pack up and pull out as our union as of course they will have lost power and there is nothing more they can do. That in itself doesn't make sense. Are they really going to pack in a lucrative business. Some 10000 odd crew (guessing) that pay them £15.39 per month? I think not! In any event, it makes BASSA appear desperate and makes it's members a bit nervous. Perhaps I've read it differently to other people that know more about it so if anyone out there has a different slant on it, your views are most welcome please.
In fact, if anyone out there even knows what's on the table that would be handy. At the end of the day none of us want AI. It is disruptive to everyone.
Whilst we know the 'bones' of the issues no one has communitcated in black and white, EXACTLY what BA propose to do and EXACTLY what BASSA prospose back. Both parties are accussing each other of the same crimes. Refusing to talk. I undertand talks are top secret, but how can we make up our minds without knowledge? The ballot forms are in the post and we're in the dark.
Not going in BASSA's favour is the latest text saying that if crew don't provide an overwhelling support for AI, then they'll have to pack up and pull out as our union as of course they will have lost power and there is nothing more they can do. That in itself doesn't make sense. Are they really going to pack in a lucrative business. Some 10000 odd crew (guessing) that pay them £15.39 per month? I think not! In any event, it makes BASSA appear desperate and makes it's members a bit nervous. Perhaps I've read it differently to other people that know more about it so if anyone out there has a different slant on it, your views are most welcome please.
In fact, if anyone out there even knows what's on the table that would be handy. At the end of the day none of us want AI. It is disruptive to everyone.
Last edited by Get Smart; 20th Dec 2006 at 09:46. Reason: spell check
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It isn't theory and you are delusional .... or a management rep stoking up the fire.
If your idea about a sell is valid, how much more attractive a sale if the industrial relations and T&Cs have been updated.
If your idea about a sell is valid, how much more attractive a sale if the industrial relations and T&Cs have been updated.
Further more....look at the bigger picture, this has been bubbling away for at least 12 months
make no mistake, the institutional shareholders want to see the unions and perceived militancy at BA broken once and for all, the pension issues sorted, and they don't want a fudge
The cost to the major shareholders in the overall scheme of things is tiny, the cost to the employees is the end of their job in the industry. I would suspect few can afford not to work for more than a week or two unpaid.
As far as the employees are concerned, they really need to be making provision for what they expect to happen (IMHO a strike is a 50/50 possibility at the moment..judging by the disinformation emanating from both sides) as a decision to vote for industrial action carries with it the responsibility to think for ones self
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What those particular arguments conveniently forget are the shareholders..both institutional, and the private holders who will NEVER stand by whilst the company value is eroded by industrial action.
WW has a remit to follow...but make no mistake, that remit will only go so far, beyond that point he will find himself removed by the board.
Companies in the final analysis are about people, if the organization is to function then both sides need to come together....if this requires industrial action (still the most direct and effective form of getting managements attention) then so be it. Those of you on here who are angry about the inconvenience or hassle this may cause..get over it, perhaps your boss/employer has a few "efficiencies" waiting for you around the corner.
WW has a remit to follow...but make no mistake, that remit will only go so far, beyond that point he will find himself removed by the board.
Companies in the final analysis are about people, if the organization is to function then both sides need to come together....if this requires industrial action (still the most direct and effective form of getting managements attention) then so be it. Those of you on here who are angry about the inconvenience or hassle this may cause..get over it, perhaps your boss/employer has a few "efficiencies" waiting for you around the corner.
I think your post is incredibly naive. The shareholders of BA couldn't give a damn about the employees, all they care about is the stock price and their dividend.
As for your comments regarding our own employers and any "efficiencies" as you say I think you'll find that we all went through that in the early 1990's when our employment practices were modernised. BA is one of the few emplyers left in the market place who are still using certain "Spanish Practices"
Interesting comments about IT staff, it's still extremely difficult to recruit and retain quality IT people in certain fields. I'm regularly signing off invoices for Peoplesoft developers at between €1500 and €2000 a day, it's impossible to recruit these people through the normal employment channels. Not all of them are good though, some of them are correcting mistakes made by their predecessors, we even caught one guy inserting dodgy code that he hoped would give him further employment later in the project.
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I think your post is incredibly naive. The shareholders of BA couldn't give a damn about the employees, all they care about is the stock price and their dividend.
My comment
Yes the airline industry has changed, yes BASSA will have to change, but by the same token those at water world wont have much of a business to manage if they upset the troops to much at the coal-face.
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Companies in the final analysis are about people
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SXB, the limitation with the written word, is that it lacks the inflection, tone, and body language that we utilize to decifer what we are "really" saying. Perhaps some straight forward comment to clarify what you mean...with this comment.....
Because you've lost me
maybe you should re-read your own posts just to have a pause and see what they really mean before pressing 'submit reply'