Why are there so little cockpit announcements?
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Thanks Hampshire Hog!!
Brilliant post once again;
and thanks from all of us reading it for taking the time to do this for me and I hope for others. The points you have made here again make for very interesting and thought provoking reading. You have given me some tips and things to mull over. A lot of what you say is sure true of me! I can't stand anyone else driving me about. Tightslot, are we OK with this on this thread? Are you happy about it? Hope so; cos you sound nice, so you don't mind, do you?
Hope will will hear from you again Hampshire Hog.
Gorgeous
and thanks from all of us reading it for taking the time to do this for me and I hope for others. The points you have made here again make for very interesting and thought provoking reading. You have given me some tips and things to mull over. A lot of what you say is sure true of me! I can't stand anyone else driving me about. Tightslot, are we OK with this on this thread? Are you happy about it? Hope so; cos you sound nice, so you don't mind, do you? Hope will will hear from you again Hampshire Hog.
Gorgeous
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OK, last focus on the fear bit. Tomorrow, I'll move onto how planes fly.
Probably between booking and taking a trip you start looking into the destination. You’re tempted to find what aircraft type will fly the route – then start searching for views about that type on pprune. Maybe you start visiting accident/fear of flying sites for information on the aircraft or airline and its accident record. EVERYTHING YOU’RE DOING IS AIMED AT RESOLVING YOUR FEARS – BUT HAVING THE EFFECT OF CONFIRMING THEM. If you find that Boeing 737s have crashed so many times – that must be a dangerous aircraft, mustn’t it? And because you’re getting worked up ahead of your flight, you’re mind isn’t analysing properly. You fail to spot that there have been lots of 737 incidents because there are more 737s than any other commercial airliner (I think) and some are operated by airlines you wouldn’t dream of flying with in dubious parts of the world. You also fail to read properly how many people were uninjured – because you’re only focussing on the number of people killed.
Then the day approaches and you’re not sleeping properly at night – bad dreams about planes maybe. Worrying more and more. THIS IS ALL A NATURAL RESPONSE TO SOMETHING YOU’RE SCARED OF – BUT NATURAL RESPONSE IS NOT THE SAME AS RATIONAL RESPONSE.
On the day, you might make it to the airport. By now you’re catastrophising big time. Do you peer through the window at the departure gate doing your own pre-flight checks of the plane? Do you look around you for any suspicious looking passengers? What if there’s a delay – must be something wrong with the aircraft mustn’t there? I bet you don’t think it could be because a member of the crew was delayed, or there was bad weather at the plane’s last destination, or someone else was scared of flying and hasn’t turned up at the gate – even though their baggage is in the hold.
If you get on the plane and sit there – sweaty palmed – looking nervously around you – every slight noise becomes a threat. This is all part of the body’s ‘fight or flight’ defence mechanism, which is great if you’re being chased by a hungry tiger, or down the road from the pub by a gang of your ex’s mates, but not very helpful when you’re trying to undertake a simple flight to Amsterdam for a business meeting! So, you need to stop those thoughts.
Some people use prescription drugs – Diazepam is a common one, as are some Beta Blockers. Others use non-prescription remedies – herbal calming … Many use alcohol. The trouble is, at altitude, the effects of these may not be quite what you want. They also leave you with side effects after your 1 hour flight. I could take enough diazepam to knock an elephant out for a week, but it didn’t work all the time in calming me enough to fly. Alcohol is better, but can leave you tired and dehydrated – especially on a long haul flight, where it combines with jet lag to make you feel really awful.
SO:
1) Learn to relax. Visit a clinical hypnotherapist if need be, just to learn. It doesn’t matter if you don’t believe in hypnotism, or if you don’t want to do that. Just spend half an hour with one being taught how to relax properly. Use this to improve your sleep during the days before a flight and use it during a flight if you can.
2) Take some exercise – this produces chemicals which help with relaxation and sleep and leaves you feeling more positive about yourself (don’t over do this!)#
3) Book your flight and find reasons to look forward to going to the destination. Forget about the aircraft type, accident records etc. Just focus on getting there – which you will – safely – whatever you’re flying on – however noisy and uncomfortable it might be. (Accepting there are still many airlines and a couple of aircraft types I wouldn’t book a flight on in the first place – have you make your own judgements about which you would prefer to avoid
4) If you really must have an answer to a question in advance –post it on here. There’s usually some aviation professional who will answer.
5) There will still be times when the anticipated flight begins to worry you. That’s ok. It’s normal. You’re being brave trying to conquer your fear (NOTE, you are not being brave flying – that’s one of the safest activities you can do). A wise man once said to me, it is not brave to do something if you’re not afraid of it.
6) Learn thought stopping. This is to stop you catastrophising for extended periods. Some people just learn to say ‘stop’ to themselves and distract with something else. Some find pain helps – flicking a rubber band worn around their wrist when such thoughts arise. The real trick is learning to successfully distract yourself from irrational thought chains. The harder you are in stopping yourself early – when the thought train begins – the more effective, and the less times such thought chains will commence.
So, a long post boiling down to three points:
- learn to relax
- book it an forget it until the day
- learn to thought stop (you can do this on the aircraft too!)
More tomorrow.
HH
Probably between booking and taking a trip you start looking into the destination. You’re tempted to find what aircraft type will fly the route – then start searching for views about that type on pprune. Maybe you start visiting accident/fear of flying sites for information on the aircraft or airline and its accident record. EVERYTHING YOU’RE DOING IS AIMED AT RESOLVING YOUR FEARS – BUT HAVING THE EFFECT OF CONFIRMING THEM. If you find that Boeing 737s have crashed so many times – that must be a dangerous aircraft, mustn’t it? And because you’re getting worked up ahead of your flight, you’re mind isn’t analysing properly. You fail to spot that there have been lots of 737 incidents because there are more 737s than any other commercial airliner (I think) and some are operated by airlines you wouldn’t dream of flying with in dubious parts of the world. You also fail to read properly how many people were uninjured – because you’re only focussing on the number of people killed.
Then the day approaches and you’re not sleeping properly at night – bad dreams about planes maybe. Worrying more and more. THIS IS ALL A NATURAL RESPONSE TO SOMETHING YOU’RE SCARED OF – BUT NATURAL RESPONSE IS NOT THE SAME AS RATIONAL RESPONSE.
On the day, you might make it to the airport. By now you’re catastrophising big time. Do you peer through the window at the departure gate doing your own pre-flight checks of the plane? Do you look around you for any suspicious looking passengers? What if there’s a delay – must be something wrong with the aircraft mustn’t there? I bet you don’t think it could be because a member of the crew was delayed, or there was bad weather at the plane’s last destination, or someone else was scared of flying and hasn’t turned up at the gate – even though their baggage is in the hold.
If you get on the plane and sit there – sweaty palmed – looking nervously around you – every slight noise becomes a threat. This is all part of the body’s ‘fight or flight’ defence mechanism, which is great if you’re being chased by a hungry tiger, or down the road from the pub by a gang of your ex’s mates, but not very helpful when you’re trying to undertake a simple flight to Amsterdam for a business meeting! So, you need to stop those thoughts.
Some people use prescription drugs – Diazepam is a common one, as are some Beta Blockers. Others use non-prescription remedies – herbal calming … Many use alcohol. The trouble is, at altitude, the effects of these may not be quite what you want. They also leave you with side effects after your 1 hour flight. I could take enough diazepam to knock an elephant out for a week, but it didn’t work all the time in calming me enough to fly. Alcohol is better, but can leave you tired and dehydrated – especially on a long haul flight, where it combines with jet lag to make you feel really awful.
SO:
1) Learn to relax. Visit a clinical hypnotherapist if need be, just to learn. It doesn’t matter if you don’t believe in hypnotism, or if you don’t want to do that. Just spend half an hour with one being taught how to relax properly. Use this to improve your sleep during the days before a flight and use it during a flight if you can.
2) Take some exercise – this produces chemicals which help with relaxation and sleep and leaves you feeling more positive about yourself (don’t over do this!)#
3) Book your flight and find reasons to look forward to going to the destination. Forget about the aircraft type, accident records etc. Just focus on getting there – which you will – safely – whatever you’re flying on – however noisy and uncomfortable it might be. (Accepting there are still many airlines and a couple of aircraft types I wouldn’t book a flight on in the first place – have you make your own judgements about which you would prefer to avoid
4) If you really must have an answer to a question in advance –post it on here. There’s usually some aviation professional who will answer.
5) There will still be times when the anticipated flight begins to worry you. That’s ok. It’s normal. You’re being brave trying to conquer your fear (NOTE, you are not being brave flying – that’s one of the safest activities you can do). A wise man once said to me, it is not brave to do something if you’re not afraid of it.
6) Learn thought stopping. This is to stop you catastrophising for extended periods. Some people just learn to say ‘stop’ to themselves and distract with something else. Some find pain helps – flicking a rubber band worn around their wrist when such thoughts arise. The real trick is learning to successfully distract yourself from irrational thought chains. The harder you are in stopping yourself early – when the thought train begins – the more effective, and the less times such thought chains will commence.
So, a long post boiling down to three points:
- learn to relax
- book it an forget it until the day
- learn to thought stop (you can do this on the aircraft too!)
More tomorrow.
HH
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On the subject of in flight announcements - I really appreciate being told what route we are taking, and would much rather hear this than the persistant "buy a scratchcard" "buy a train ticket" "give us more money" etc. announcements of Ryanair.
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Brilliant Points Again Hampshire Hog!!
Hampshire Hog, THANKYOU!! You are definitely helping me. I'm sure others reading this will appreciate it just as much as me. By the way, which are the planes/airlines you wouldn't fly with??
Give us a clue; Im good at charades
Gorgeous
You are definitely helping me. I'm sure others reading this will appreciate it just as much as me. By the way, which are the planes/airlines you wouldn't fly with?? Give us a clue; Im good at charades Gorgeous
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Hi there to the people who don't like flying much. Thought I'd just let you know about a web site which is brilliant. This is a serious site for people who wants to overcome their fear of flying, so no hoaxers please.
www.scaredofflying.com
If you're nervous about flying, please come along and join in the forum. It's a great community, and people help each other as well as posting questions to me or the captain.
www.scaredofflying.com
If you're nervous about flying, please come along and join in the forum. It's a great community, and people help each other as well as posting questions to me or the captain.
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Glamgirl,
Excellent referral to a great site. I hadn't seen this one before, but it looks really good. Readers on here might want to look in particular at the 'reassure me' section.
I think that site also covers far more than I am going to, but I'm happy to carry on writing if anyone wants to read more.
Gorgeous, I'm content to say that I would avoid elderly airliners manufactured in the former eastern block countries and, though I'm not aware of any, I'd probably avoid anything similar from the 3rd world. I'm still not going to name airlines - since it will be edited out, I'm sure - but if you can find out who flies those old planes - that'll give you a clue! I actually chose my flying school, among other things, because of their high quality maintenance of school aircraft. These things matter
I found learning about how planes fly and what the pilots do an essential element in beating my fears - the samples of from the CDs on the site Glamgirl has referred to sound very good.
Let's do wings today.
At its simplest, airliners need to overcome two forces to fly - weight and drag. They do this by generating opposing forces - lift and thrust. Just like a bird, the wings produce lift. Despite early attempts to produce thrust by flapping the wings, it was found that a fixed motor produced more efficient thrust - and so most aircraft are driven by piston or jet engines.
The attachment of wings to a modern airliner is incredibly strong. Wings are designed specifically for the aircraft, taking into account the size and weight, centre of gravity and centre of pressure and speeds at which the aircraft will be required to operate. Often they include fuel tanks in the wings - which actually help the wing loading and stability. Engines have a similar effect if slung underneath (as with the Boeing 737, 757, 767, 747 and Airbus ranges).
The ideal for a modern passenger plane is to have low take of and landing speeds and much heigher cruise speeds. Nothing is ever simple in life and so it is with wing design. What is good for a slow speed (take off and landing) is not great at higher speeds. This is resolved in everything from light planes to jet airliners by the use of 'high lift' devices to change the shape of the wing and the airflow over it. In fact, that is the critical bit - the airflow. As the aircraft is driven forwards - by the thrust created by the engines - the air (a fluid, just like water and thicker than you might think) flows under and over the wing from front to back. The wing is shaped such that it takes a longer route over the top than underneath - that going over the top has to speed up to catch up with the air going underneath, resulting in a lower pressure above than below the wing. This causes the wing to be sucked upwards - with some lift from underneath as well. In effect, there is an imbalance between bottom and top of the wing lifting it upwards. This effect is very strong. Try holding your hand out of the car window at 70mph! Many airliners have 'slats' which pop out at the front of the wings and all have 'flaps' which move backwards and downwards at the rear of the wings. You will have heard and seen these, I'm sure. The hydraulic/electric motors which drive them are often quite noisy and some cause an airflow noise too (anyone ever flown in a BAE146? The airflow between the flaps and the body as the flaps are extended sounds like a banshee!). On many airliners, there are back-up systems should flaps fail to extend and all pilots are trained in landing without the flaps extended at all (on an airliner that requires quite a lot of speed [pre-calculated for all aircraft] and you may be diverted to find a longer runway. The manoeuvre is not, in itself, dangerous, the plane is still flown at a suitable flying speed with plenty of safety margin). I know several pilots and none has actually had to do a flapless landing for real in an airliner - only in the simulator training
If the airflow were to begin breaking up - because the angle of attack is increased too much (nose heigh, to maintain height with a falling airspeed) then the wing will stall. In a single engined aircraft, this is may happen with an engine fault/failure unless the pilot recognises the problem and lowers the nose to glide speed. It is not the same as stalling in your car - it is the airflow over the wing which has broken up and so the lift generated by the wing deteriorates - an engine problem may give rise to the situation, but it is not the engine that stalls. In multi engined airliners, the nose may be lowered slightly to give the best speed with a slow/shut-down engine, but it will not usually be necessary to land off-airport. In a 'heavy' plane, such as a 747, loss of two engines may result in a descent into thicker air, where the aircraft will be levelled off and routed to a suitable airport.
In reality, modern aircraft wings are designed to give plenty of warning to the pilot before a wing stall. In the aircraft I fly, the Piper PA28, when the wing is stalled the aircraft nods its head a few times, loses a bit of height and kind of 'mushes downwards' nodding its head en-route. Airliners are far more sophisticated. Pilots learn about stall recovery, but are unlikely to stall an airliner in a whole flying career. There are warning alarms, stick pushers (to ensure the nose is pushed down if the angle of attach becomes critical), auto-throttle responses and, on fly-by-wire planes such as the Airbus A320 series, A330, A340 and A380, computer systems which will in normal operations prevent the pilot from doing anything that gets the plane anywhere close to the stall. For example, on the Airbus, the pilot can pull the control stick fully back for a maximum angle of climb (you wouldn't want to be sat in the back for this - it would feel almost vertical ). The aircraft will give him maximum climb available for the speed and will advance the throttles to give him more power ... I believe the test pilots who fly the airbus at airshows have to disconnect some protection systems in order to do the display manoeuvres. These systems would never be disconnected in service.
'But the wings wobble!' - Of course they do. They are intended to. To build them so they didn't would increase the weight of the aircraft too much and - more importantly - you would feel every bit of turbulence and so would the airframe. Imagine driving your car with bars welded to the suspension, locking the shock absorbers and springs. It wouldn't be comfortable to have a rigid ride in the car and it wouldn't be in an aircraft. Building a set amount of flexibility addresses these problems.
You might also like to know that, during the design and testing process, a test aircraft is placed in a jig and the wings loaded (using jacks) until they break. The angle/loading at which they break is amazing.
So, wings are incredibly strong, can handle all the turbulence you are ever likely to encounter, produce all the lift the plane will ever need, and are unlikely (in an airliner) to give rise to an aerodynamic stall. The flaps and slats help through take-off and landing (which would be faster and so bumpier without) and, even thought the systems that operate them may make strange noises, you should try to view these as 'friendly sounds' - they help the plane fly safely and you arrive, where you want to go, comfortably.
Happy to do engines later this week, if anyone wants more. If you prefer the dedicated fear of flying site, I'm happy to leave it to the professionals.
HH
Excellent referral to a great site. I hadn't seen this one before, but it looks really good. Readers on here might want to look in particular at the 'reassure me' section.
I think that site also covers far more than I am going to, but I'm happy to carry on writing if anyone wants to read more.
Gorgeous, I'm content to say that I would avoid elderly airliners manufactured in the former eastern block countries and, though I'm not aware of any, I'd probably avoid anything similar from the 3rd world. I'm still not going to name airlines - since it will be edited out, I'm sure - but if you can find out who flies those old planes - that'll give you a clue! I actually chose my flying school, among other things, because of their high quality maintenance of school aircraft. These things matter
I found learning about how planes fly and what the pilots do an essential element in beating my fears - the samples of from the CDs on the site Glamgirl has referred to sound very good.
Let's do wings today.
At its simplest, airliners need to overcome two forces to fly - weight and drag. They do this by generating opposing forces - lift and thrust. Just like a bird, the wings produce lift. Despite early attempts to produce thrust by flapping the wings, it was found that a fixed motor produced more efficient thrust - and so most aircraft are driven by piston or jet engines.
The attachment of wings to a modern airliner is incredibly strong. Wings are designed specifically for the aircraft, taking into account the size and weight, centre of gravity and centre of pressure and speeds at which the aircraft will be required to operate. Often they include fuel tanks in the wings - which actually help the wing loading and stability. Engines have a similar effect if slung underneath (as with the Boeing 737, 757, 767, 747 and Airbus ranges).
The ideal for a modern passenger plane is to have low take of and landing speeds and much heigher cruise speeds. Nothing is ever simple in life and so it is with wing design. What is good for a slow speed (take off and landing) is not great at higher speeds. This is resolved in everything from light planes to jet airliners by the use of 'high lift' devices to change the shape of the wing and the airflow over it. In fact, that is the critical bit - the airflow. As the aircraft is driven forwards - by the thrust created by the engines - the air (a fluid, just like water and thicker than you might think) flows under and over the wing from front to back. The wing is shaped such that it takes a longer route over the top than underneath - that going over the top has to speed up to catch up with the air going underneath, resulting in a lower pressure above than below the wing. This causes the wing to be sucked upwards - with some lift from underneath as well. In effect, there is an imbalance between bottom and top of the wing lifting it upwards. This effect is very strong. Try holding your hand out of the car window at 70mph! Many airliners have 'slats' which pop out at the front of the wings and all have 'flaps' which move backwards and downwards at the rear of the wings. You will have heard and seen these, I'm sure. The hydraulic/electric motors which drive them are often quite noisy and some cause an airflow noise too (anyone ever flown in a BAE146? The airflow between the flaps and the body as the flaps are extended sounds like a banshee!). On many airliners, there are back-up systems should flaps fail to extend and all pilots are trained in landing without the flaps extended at all (on an airliner that requires quite a lot of speed [pre-calculated for all aircraft] and you may be diverted to find a longer runway. The manoeuvre is not, in itself, dangerous, the plane is still flown at a suitable flying speed with plenty of safety margin). I know several pilots and none has actually had to do a flapless landing for real in an airliner - only in the simulator training
If the airflow were to begin breaking up - because the angle of attack is increased too much (nose heigh, to maintain height with a falling airspeed) then the wing will stall. In a single engined aircraft, this is may happen with an engine fault/failure unless the pilot recognises the problem and lowers the nose to glide speed. It is not the same as stalling in your car - it is the airflow over the wing which has broken up and so the lift generated by the wing deteriorates - an engine problem may give rise to the situation, but it is not the engine that stalls. In multi engined airliners, the nose may be lowered slightly to give the best speed with a slow/shut-down engine, but it will not usually be necessary to land off-airport. In a 'heavy' plane, such as a 747, loss of two engines may result in a descent into thicker air, where the aircraft will be levelled off and routed to a suitable airport.
In reality, modern aircraft wings are designed to give plenty of warning to the pilot before a wing stall. In the aircraft I fly, the Piper PA28, when the wing is stalled the aircraft nods its head a few times, loses a bit of height and kind of 'mushes downwards' nodding its head en-route. Airliners are far more sophisticated. Pilots learn about stall recovery, but are unlikely to stall an airliner in a whole flying career. There are warning alarms, stick pushers (to ensure the nose is pushed down if the angle of attach becomes critical), auto-throttle responses and, on fly-by-wire planes such as the Airbus A320 series, A330, A340 and A380, computer systems which will in normal operations prevent the pilot from doing anything that gets the plane anywhere close to the stall. For example, on the Airbus, the pilot can pull the control stick fully back for a maximum angle of climb (you wouldn't want to be sat in the back for this - it would feel almost vertical
). The aircraft will give him maximum climb available for the speed and will advance the throttles to give him more power ... I believe the test pilots who fly the airbus at airshows have to disconnect some protection systems in order to do the display manoeuvres. These systems would never be disconnected in service.'But the wings wobble!' - Of course they do. They are intended to. To build them so they didn't would increase the weight of the aircraft too much and - more importantly - you would feel every bit of turbulence and so would the airframe. Imagine driving your car with bars welded to the suspension, locking the shock absorbers and springs. It wouldn't be comfortable to have a rigid ride in the car and it wouldn't be in an aircraft. Building a set amount of flexibility addresses these problems.
You might also like to know that, during the design and testing process, a test aircraft is placed in a jig and the wings loaded (using jacks) until they break. The angle/loading at which they break is amazing.
So, wings are incredibly strong, can handle all the turbulence you are ever likely to encounter, produce all the lift the plane will ever need, and are unlikely (in an airliner) to give rise to an aerodynamic stall. The flaps and slats help through take-off and landing (which would be faster and so bumpier without) and, even thought the systems that operate them may make strange noises, you should try to view these as 'friendly sounds' - they help the plane fly safely and you arrive, where you want to go, comfortably.
Happy to do engines later this week, if anyone wants more. If you prefer the dedicated fear of flying site, I'm happy to leave it to the professionals.
HH
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hey.. as a student pilot with 40 hours PPL I just wanted to say... there isn't (or maybe there are very few) such thing as a natural flyer. Fear or discomfort never totally goes away, we only learn to deal with it...
In fact, despite the little experience I've gathered so far, and flying comfortably most of the times, today I was doing solo circuits in quite strong and turbulent crosswinds and I actually felt sick at the controls !
Fortunately managed to grab a sick bag quickly so I didn't make a mess of the cockpit. Landed safely with a very smelly breath !
Charming !
In fact, despite the little experience I've gathered so far, and flying comfortably most of the times, today I was doing solo circuits in quite strong and turbulent crosswinds and I actually felt sick at the controls !
Fortunately managed to grab a sick bag quickly so I didn't make a mess of the cockpit. Landed safely with a very smelly breath !
Charming !
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Thanks for that post High Hopes. I know one or two people for whom I would say that flying does come naturally and who are safety conscious but have little fear on a day-to-day basis.
How far throught the PPL are you? Is it helping? I think it really does take time to get used to turb, even as a student pilot and especially as a solo student. I had passed the skills test before I finally stopped gripping onto the passenger seat in the bumps.
One point though, if it was so turbulent that you were sick at the controls, in the circuit, you probably should have landed earlier. I know that sounds gratuitous, but don't forget the human factors training. You're probably learning for fun - so fly when you can enjoy it, not when it's going to make you sick. Your instructor should have advised you.
HH
How far throught the PPL are you? Is it helping? I think it really does take time to get used to turb, even as a student pilot and especially as a solo student. I had passed the skills test before I finally stopped gripping onto the passenger seat in the bumps.
One point though, if it was so turbulent that you were sick at the controls, in the circuit, you probably should have landed earlier. I know that sounds gratuitous, but don't forget the human factors training. You're probably learning for fun - so fly when you can enjoy it, not when it's going to make you sick. Your instructor should have advised you.
HH
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hey HH
I must say the instructor did all he could do - checked me out on the cross wind, I was doing ok and felt perfectly fine... so sent me solo. I was ok for a bit then it all happened very quickly.. and before I knew it I was sick LOL
Nothing major, but sure a good lesson learned. I have 40 hours and about 10 are solo so I should have known better !
I started flying out of interest and passion, with a half thought (just half) about professional developments. But it has also made me a much more relaxed passenger. I've always enjoyed flying, but knowing what's going on and why certain noises/turns/climbs/descents happen, it's somehow reassuring.
H-H
I must say the instructor did all he could do - checked me out on the cross wind, I was doing ok and felt perfectly fine... so sent me solo. I was ok for a bit then it all happened very quickly.. and before I knew it I was sick LOL
Nothing major, but sure a good lesson learned. I have 40 hours and about 10 are solo so I should have known better !
I started flying out of interest and passion, with a half thought (just half) about professional developments. But it has also made me a much more relaxed passenger. I've always enjoyed flying, but knowing what's going on and why certain noises/turns/climbs/descents happen, it's somehow reassuring.
H-H
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Still Waiting For Engines Hampshire Hog!!!
Super previous posts; a lot of what you say really makes good sense; so if you please the bit (or rather the most important bit!) about the engines!!Gorgeous
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Wasn't this tried with American in 1977
As a regular biz and hol pax, I like plenty of announcements if the flight is delayed etc, but not the sightseeing stuff.
Best airline I've flown with for interest was Delta. You can listen in to the Pilot/ Air Traffic Control converstaions on your seat headset. Sure passes the time and I'm sure would help the fearful ones.
Skintman
Best airline I've flown with for interest was Delta. You can listen in to the Pilot/ Air Traffic Control converstaions on your seat headset. Sure passes the time and I'm sure would help the fearful ones.
Skintman
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I don't know, maybe because the pilots are working at flying an aircraft...
When I flew, from time to time we'd have pilots who would be on the p/a every 20 minutes, for 5 minutes or so, and it was usually someone who didn't have any skill in communicating briefly and concisely, and liked the sound of their voice. It was annoying. If I was a co-pilot that would drive me bonkers....Then again , on a nice sunny day , maybe, but if you're over the Pacific or Nebraska, who needs one...
Whenever the seat belt sign is turned on, the cabin crew is required by law to make an announcement for the passengers to remain seated with their seatbelts fastened. A check of seatbelts is recommended, especially young children, etc. From time to time, the pilot crew may turn it on expecting turbulence and the aircraft doesn't hit any. Or they may be "helping" out the cabin crew briefly so that they can get their service started without a bazillion people getting up and in the aisle. In any event an announcement should be made.
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yeah happier days
As for me, I would prefer the pilot fly the designated flight plan and follow the controller's instructions...
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Only a humble PAX, but as I understand it there should be at least a couple of miles lateral separation between aircraft. Our little 'display' was only a few seconds in each direction, so I don't imagine separation was compromised.
Any professionals care to comment on whether this would be considered a little bit 'naughty' today?
I once had a flight from Kusuluk (Greenland) . After we'd taken off, the Icelandair pilot came on and said that "since it's a nice clear day, we'll do a bit of sight seeing" and proceeded to fly his F50 up and down the glaciated valleys for 15-30 minutes before heading off to Reykjavik. I guess this may be SOP for that flight, since it's mostly tourists on board.
Any professionals care to comment on whether this would be considered a little bit 'naughty' today?
I once had a flight from Kusuluk (Greenland) . After we'd taken off, the Icelandair pilot came on and said that "since it's a nice clear day, we'll do a bit of sight seeing" and proceeded to fly his F50 up and down the glaciated valleys for 15-30 minutes before heading off to Reykjavik. I guess this may be SOP for that flight, since it's mostly tourists on board.
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Gorgeous,
I have just spent about 1/2 an hour writing about engines only to lose the lot. I'll re-write it in a saved form and post it shortly, I promise. There'll be a short delay, I can only ask you to bear with me (just practising the patter!)
HH
I have just spent about 1/2 an hour writing about engines only to lose the lot. I'll re-write it in a saved form and post it shortly, I promise. There'll be a short delay, I can only ask you to bear with me (just practising the patter!)
HH
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FEAR
5 or 6 years ago, my colleague and myself flew to Miama on bisiness with Virgin. My colleague, a self confessed wimp, spoke to the CC of his absolute fear of flying and they gave him one of these tapes to try and calm him. Obviously the captain had been told about my colleague because at some stage during the early part of the flight, he came down to our seat row and had a brief chat and then invited both of us to the flight deck.
Yes, I know that can't happen now, more's the pity, but during our time in the cockpit, well over an hour, we were given the potted history and strength of the 747 (forget which series), the function of the cockpit,which included throttling back one engine briefly to show the very little difference it made to the performance, and brief CVs of the pilots. He took great trouble and clearly some pleasure in showing us the ropes. It was a fascinating experience. I wish I could remember his name, he was pretty senior, and I think it started with "D".
Some years before on the way back from HK with BA, sitting upstairs (dunno why I was there, I was not first class) and bored asked if I could sit up front for the landing at LHR. No problem, in the jump seat and fascinated. Fascinating again. At least I've had the opportunity to see the sharp end in action.
Yes, I know that can't happen now, more's the pity, but during our time in the cockpit, well over an hour, we were given the potted history and strength of the 747 (forget which series), the function of the cockpit,which included throttling back one engine briefly to show the very little difference it made to the performance, and brief CVs of the pilots. He took great trouble and clearly some pleasure in showing us the ropes. It was a fascinating experience. I wish I could remember his name, he was pretty senior, and I think it started with "D".
Some years before on the way back from HK with BA, sitting upstairs (dunno why I was there, I was not first class) and bored asked if I could sit up front for the landing at LHR. No problem, in the jump seat and fascinated. Fascinating again. At least I've had the opportunity to see the sharp end in action.
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9/11 was a terrible event for many people.
Unfortunately, one of the lesser effects (relatively) was the end to flight deck visits whilst actually flying. These were an incredible help for fearful fliers; I had several - one into Monastir in the front of a L1011, sat up the front of a 767 going to Budapest and had a night landing into Heathrow in a 737 - now that was well impressive. It all set me off down the road of becoming a pilot and working hard to conquer my fear.
HH
Unfortunately, one of the lesser effects (relatively) was the end to flight deck visits whilst actually flying. These were an incredible help for fearful fliers; I had several - one into Monastir in the front of a L1011, sat up the front of a 767 going to Budapest and had a night landing into Heathrow in a 737 - now that was well impressive. It all set me off down the road of becoming a pilot and working hard to conquer my fear.
HH
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And the patter better be good!! Gorgeous
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Gorgeous - Engines – as promised! (A320, I wish!)
When you get in your car and start it up, do you think much about it? It starts (usually!) without any hassle. You drive away without worrying about whether the motor is going to get you to your destination (OK, many years ago, I owned several cars where I wondered whether they really would make it to my destination, but those years are long past!). How many times has your car engine failed whilst running? So why would you be worried by an aeroplane engine – serviced to far more stringent standards and monitored closely by both engineers and the pilots using numerous systems and technologies?
Now, as you will know, there are several types of aeroplane engines. The piston engine in the PA28, which I fly, is not far removed from a car engine – save that car engines have advanced far more than avgas fuelled aero engines! The main fail-safe features additional to a car are dual magnetos – for power – and doubling of ignition systems – two plugs for each cylinder … all to ensure if one system fails there is a back-up. Both systems are tested before and after every flight.
Unless you’re into flying in vintage passenger planes, you will not find a piston engine in an airliner. They use something even more reliable – the jet.
Now, I hear you saying: but lots still have propellers. Yes, but these are ‘turbo-props’ effectively a jet engine optimised to drive a propeller on the front rather than to blast hot air out the back – although some actually do a bit of both.
The process in your car engine is pretty simple – fuel and air is drawn into the cylinder, squeezed to increase the temperature and potential for an efficient ‘bang’! The spark plug ignites the mixture which expands, pushing the piston down (moving the connecting rod, which drives a shaft producing rotational output from the engine – transmitted to the wheels throught the gearbox), then other opposing pistons push the first one back up – exhaust valves open and the residual gasses are pushed out through the exhaust. Hence the description of a petrol engine cycle: ‘suck, squeeze, bang, blow’.
Jet engines do something similar, but as a continuous cycle – air is drawn in at the front – then passed through ever smaller turbine chambers, which has the effect of squeezing it. When fuel is added the mixture ignites and the resulting expansion of hot air is blasted out the back – some is used to keep the turbine turning – and so the process becomes self sustaining. Because jet engines are manufactured to incredibly high standards, and because there are fewer moving parts than in a piston engine, they are very, very, reliable. The blast out of the back produces an equal and opposite reaction which thrusts the aircraft forwards. The jet is most efficient at high altitudes an so is the engine of choice for airliners doing longer routes. Modern jet engines are known as ‘high bye-pass engines’ because significant volumes of air are passed around the engine within the cowling. This helps efficiency and reduces noise.
At lower altitudes, a propeller is more efficient, hence the use of the turbo-prop on aircraft for shorter sectors, commuter and feeder routes. These aircraft can also be cheaper to operate. The turbine engine (same process as the jet) drives the propellers which are mostly variable pitch. Variable pitch propellers have a similar effect to the gears on your car. Fine pitch is used for take off, course (or courser) pitch used for the cruise. Fine is equivalent to 1st gear, course to the overdrive 5th or 6th gear. Some airlines have an SOP requiring the propellers to be placed in fine pitch shortly before landing – in case of the need to go around and try again. This is very noticeable and Flybe’s Dash 8, Q400s. In the cabin, you might hear a strange ‘engine noise’ coupled with the feeling that the aircraft is stopping in mid-air. This feeling is just an illusion, but a lady passenger sat next to me nearly broke my arm one day as she gripped on for dear life! It is not dangerous – actually, I quite look forward to it now – I think it’s quite fun watching unsuspecting passengers’ reactions – although I do genuinely sympathise with their fears as well.
Many people comment on the noise of reverse thrust, from jets and turbo-props. On a jet, there are doors which can be opened on the side of the engine, driving jet thrust out and slightly forwards to assist in slowing the aircraft and save brake wear. Turbo-props have either a similar system and/or use the propeller pitch to aid slowing down. This can be noisy, but you’re on the ground and it is not dangerous in any way.
Other noises associated with both types of engine relate to the pressurisation/air conditioning packs. These are powered by the engines and so tend to vary slightly in their operation as the engine speed is altered. Engines also drive the power for most aircraft systems, so you may see slight changes on entertainment systems, or flickering cabin lights, with variations in engine speed. Try this – sit in your car with the engine running, put on all the services – lights, rear screen heater, air conditioning, heater fan. Now rev the engine and listen to the heater fan speed changing. It’s all caused by the same thing – variation in the power drawn and available from the engine.
What if an engine does fail – especially on take-off. Well, not much really. If an engine fails before a speed known as V1, the speed at which the aircraft is calculated to be committed to take-off, the pilot will take off at the pre-calculated speed and climb at the single engine climb speed (a shallower climb than usual), notify the controller, then either do a circuit and re-land or go somewhere safe to consider the problem or dump fuel, or prepare for an overweight landing, before re-landing. All twin engine airliners can climb and fly quite safely on one engine. A really heavy aircraft, such as the 747, can climb on 3 and sustain cruise (maybe at a lower altitude) on 2. The chances of experiencing an engine failure are given as about 1 in 1 million. The chances of losing several are 1 in 1 million to the power of something ridiculous. There are only two really likely causes of that – fuel contamination (or loss) and ingestion of something horrible like volcanic ash. Fuel is checked, systems are supposed to prevent fuel contamination and, in turbine engines, it has to be pretty significant before it becomes a problem. Some years ago, a 747 flew in volcanic ash. It suffered multiple engine failures, but the pilot managed to get at least one engine re-started and the aircraft landed safely. Pilots study charts and receive warnings of volcanic activity and such scenarios are now positively avoided. So, not much really to worry about there.
On fly-by-wire planes, reliant on electrical systems, there will either be sufficient electrical power from the wind-milling engines, or they have an alternative ‘impeller’ – as was the case with the A340 which ran out of fuel over the Atlantic. It made a safe – albeit slightly heavy landing with sufficient power to drive the control systems.
So,
1) Aircraft need engines – because they can’t just flap their wings.
2) Engines produce more efficient thrust than flapping the wings!
3) Engines make lots of noise – sorry, they just do.
4) Older ‘low bye-pass’ engines make even more noise – they are noisy, not dangerous.
5) Jets and turbo-props are both very reliable. The propeller is just more efficient in some circumstances.
6) The noises change – just like your car engine.
7) When they do, other services may be affected – air, electrics – it is not dangerous.
8) Engines are never stopped or shut down in the air – except in an emergency (e.g. a fuel fire – a very rare event – all jet engines have at least two extinguisher systems and most fires just go out when the fuel to that engine is shut off – hence the need for a shut down). This is inconvenient, but not especially dangerous.
9) Engines must be pulled back to low speed/power for descent – otherwise the aircraft may exceed its safe operating speed.
10) Engines will also be pulled back when levelling off (e.g. for the cruise) – same reason as 9.
11) Changes in propeller pitch can often be heard – this is for efficiency – it is not dangerous.
I hope I’ve covered everything necessary on engines, but if anyone has any questions or a professional wants to add/correct anything – please do.
Gorgeous, I’m a GREAT multi-tasker – you should try me! However, my work computer has a terrible habit of demanding a further login when posting on pprune, during which it deletes my text.
I thought I might cover pressurisation and air systems next, but let me know if you’d like anything different.
HH
(Paul)
When you get in your car and start it up, do you think much about it? It starts (usually!) without any hassle. You drive away without worrying about whether the motor is going to get you to your destination (OK, many years ago, I owned several cars where I wondered whether they really would make it to my destination, but those years are long past!). How many times has your car engine failed whilst running? So why would you be worried by an aeroplane engine – serviced to far more stringent standards and monitored closely by both engineers and the pilots using numerous systems and technologies?
Now, as you will know, there are several types of aeroplane engines. The piston engine in the PA28, which I fly, is not far removed from a car engine – save that car engines have advanced far more than avgas fuelled aero engines! The main fail-safe features additional to a car are dual magnetos – for power – and doubling of ignition systems – two plugs for each cylinder … all to ensure if one system fails there is a back-up. Both systems are tested before and after every flight.
Unless you’re into flying in vintage passenger planes, you will not find a piston engine in an airliner. They use something even more reliable – the jet.
Now, I hear you saying: but lots still have propellers. Yes, but these are ‘turbo-props’ effectively a jet engine optimised to drive a propeller on the front rather than to blast hot air out the back – although some actually do a bit of both.
The process in your car engine is pretty simple – fuel and air is drawn into the cylinder, squeezed to increase the temperature and potential for an efficient ‘bang’! The spark plug ignites the mixture which expands, pushing the piston down (moving the connecting rod, which drives a shaft producing rotational output from the engine – transmitted to the wheels throught the gearbox), then other opposing pistons push the first one back up – exhaust valves open and the residual gasses are pushed out through the exhaust. Hence the description of a petrol engine cycle: ‘suck, squeeze, bang, blow’.
Jet engines do something similar, but as a continuous cycle – air is drawn in at the front – then passed through ever smaller turbine chambers, which has the effect of squeezing it. When fuel is added the mixture ignites and the resulting expansion of hot air is blasted out the back – some is used to keep the turbine turning – and so the process becomes self sustaining. Because jet engines are manufactured to incredibly high standards, and because there are fewer moving parts than in a piston engine, they are very, very, reliable. The blast out of the back produces an equal and opposite reaction which thrusts the aircraft forwards. The jet is most efficient at high altitudes an so is the engine of choice for airliners doing longer routes. Modern jet engines are known as ‘high bye-pass engines’ because significant volumes of air are passed around the engine within the cowling. This helps efficiency and reduces noise.
At lower altitudes, a propeller is more efficient, hence the use of the turbo-prop on aircraft for shorter sectors, commuter and feeder routes. These aircraft can also be cheaper to operate. The turbine engine (same process as the jet) drives the propellers which are mostly variable pitch. Variable pitch propellers have a similar effect to the gears on your car. Fine pitch is used for take off, course (or courser) pitch used for the cruise. Fine is equivalent to 1st gear, course to the overdrive 5th or 6th gear. Some airlines have an SOP requiring the propellers to be placed in fine pitch shortly before landing – in case of the need to go around and try again. This is very noticeable and Flybe’s Dash 8, Q400s. In the cabin, you might hear a strange ‘engine noise’ coupled with the feeling that the aircraft is stopping in mid-air. This feeling is just an illusion, but a lady passenger sat next to me nearly broke my arm one day as she gripped on for dear life! It is not dangerous – actually, I quite look forward to it now – I think it’s quite fun watching unsuspecting passengers’ reactions – although I do genuinely sympathise with their fears as well.
Many people comment on the noise of reverse thrust, from jets and turbo-props. On a jet, there are doors which can be opened on the side of the engine, driving jet thrust out and slightly forwards to assist in slowing the aircraft and save brake wear. Turbo-props have either a similar system and/or use the propeller pitch to aid slowing down. This can be noisy, but you’re on the ground and it is not dangerous in any way.
Other noises associated with both types of engine relate to the pressurisation/air conditioning packs. These are powered by the engines and so tend to vary slightly in their operation as the engine speed is altered. Engines also drive the power for most aircraft systems, so you may see slight changes on entertainment systems, or flickering cabin lights, with variations in engine speed. Try this – sit in your car with the engine running, put on all the services – lights, rear screen heater, air conditioning, heater fan. Now rev the engine and listen to the heater fan speed changing. It’s all caused by the same thing – variation in the power drawn and available from the engine.
What if an engine does fail – especially on take-off. Well, not much really. If an engine fails before a speed known as V1, the speed at which the aircraft is calculated to be committed to take-off, the pilot will take off at the pre-calculated speed and climb at the single engine climb speed (a shallower climb than usual), notify the controller, then either do a circuit and re-land or go somewhere safe to consider the problem or dump fuel, or prepare for an overweight landing, before re-landing. All twin engine airliners can climb and fly quite safely on one engine. A really heavy aircraft, such as the 747, can climb on 3 and sustain cruise (maybe at a lower altitude) on 2. The chances of experiencing an engine failure are given as about 1 in 1 million. The chances of losing several are 1 in 1 million to the power of something ridiculous. There are only two really likely causes of that – fuel contamination (or loss) and ingestion of something horrible like volcanic ash. Fuel is checked, systems are supposed to prevent fuel contamination and, in turbine engines, it has to be pretty significant before it becomes a problem. Some years ago, a 747 flew in volcanic ash. It suffered multiple engine failures, but the pilot managed to get at least one engine re-started and the aircraft landed safely. Pilots study charts and receive warnings of volcanic activity and such scenarios are now positively avoided. So, not much really to worry about there.
On fly-by-wire planes, reliant on electrical systems, there will either be sufficient electrical power from the wind-milling engines, or they have an alternative ‘impeller’ – as was the case with the A340 which ran out of fuel over the Atlantic. It made a safe – albeit slightly heavy landing with sufficient power to drive the control systems.
So,
1) Aircraft need engines – because they can’t just flap their wings.
2) Engines produce more efficient thrust than flapping the wings!
3) Engines make lots of noise – sorry, they just do.
4) Older ‘low bye-pass’ engines make even more noise – they are noisy, not dangerous.
5) Jets and turbo-props are both very reliable. The propeller is just more efficient in some circumstances.
6) The noises change – just like your car engine.
7) When they do, other services may be affected – air, electrics – it is not dangerous.
8) Engines are never stopped or shut down in the air – except in an emergency (e.g. a fuel fire – a very rare event – all jet engines have at least two extinguisher systems and most fires just go out when the fuel to that engine is shut off – hence the need for a shut down). This is inconvenient, but not especially dangerous.
9) Engines must be pulled back to low speed/power for descent – otherwise the aircraft may exceed its safe operating speed.
10) Engines will also be pulled back when levelling off (e.g. for the cruise) – same reason as 9.
11) Changes in propeller pitch can often be heard – this is for efficiency – it is not dangerous.
I hope I’ve covered everything necessary on engines, but if anyone has any questions or a professional wants to add/correct anything – please do.
Gorgeous, I’m a GREAT multi-tasker – you should try me! However, my work computer has a terrible habit of demanding a further login when posting on pprune, during which it deletes my text.
I thought I might cover pressurisation and air systems next, but let me know if you’d like anything different.
HH
(Paul)
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A little add-on to my post above:
- Most airliners have another engine you don't see - called an APU (auxilliary power unit) - it provides power whilst the main engines are not running and where there is no ground power available (or used). You can normally hear it if you board a plane from outside, rather than over an airbridge. It is shut down after the main engines are started, and re-started before they are shut down. The APU itself is another small turbine run from the same fuel sources as the main engines. Air bled from compressors driven by the APU is used to start the main engines.
- How do you start a jet - many now have auto-starters, but the process is the same. Compressed air is used to turn the turbine (fan). When sufficient air pressure and temperature is reached, the fuel flow is switched on and the engine ignites. The starting process is more reliable than your car. There are a couple of complications which happen occasionally, but these are sorted on the ground, usually by abandoning the start, allowing the engine to cool and then having another go. It does not indicate a dodgy engine - just happens from time to time.
HH
- Most airliners have another engine you don't see - called an APU (auxilliary power unit) - it provides power whilst the main engines are not running and where there is no ground power available (or used). You can normally hear it if you board a plane from outside, rather than over an airbridge. It is shut down after the main engines are started, and re-started before they are shut down. The APU itself is another small turbine run from the same fuel sources as the main engines. Air bled from compressors driven by the APU is used to start the main engines.
- How do you start a jet - many now have auto-starters, but the process is the same. Compressed air is used to turn the turbine (fan). When sufficient air pressure and temperature is reached, the fuel flow is switched on and the engine ignites. The starting process is more reliable than your car. There are a couple of complications which happen occasionally, but these are sorted on the ground, usually by abandoning the start, allowing the engine to cool and then having another go. It does not indicate a dodgy engine - just happens from time to time.
HH