Monarch Boots off 2 Arab/Asian men AGP - MAN due pax complaints
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The trouble is you just never know.
http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=9689
http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=9689
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EasyR,
I agree with much of what you say, but my original point was: “I suspect, as is generally the case with the media, the information is incomplete and ALL the facts surrounding the incident have not been reported.”
From the Daily Mail: “Worries spread after a female passenger said she had heard something that alarmed her”.
If it was simply that they were speaking Arabic your sentiments are spot on. If she heard them say something that could be specifically construed as a threat, even if they said it as a joke considering the attention they were receiving, the lady was right to be concerned.
It is unfortunate that everyone from the Muslim community is being considered a threat, just as every Irish person was at the height of the IRA bombing campaign. It is wrong to paint everyone with the same brush, but when you know there is a threat from a specific area I don’t believe it is unreasonable to concentrate on that area. For the true blue bigots out there it will be interesting to see what they do when they board an aircraft with a Muslim Cap and F/O!
I agree with much of what you say, but my original point was: “I suspect, as is generally the case with the media, the information is incomplete and ALL the facts surrounding the incident have not been reported.”
From the Daily Mail: “Worries spread after a female passenger said she had heard something that alarmed her”.
If it was simply that they were speaking Arabic your sentiments are spot on. If she heard them say something that could be specifically construed as a threat, even if they said it as a joke considering the attention they were receiving, the lady was right to be concerned.
It is unfortunate that everyone from the Muslim community is being considered a threat, just as every Irish person was at the height of the IRA bombing campaign. It is wrong to paint everyone with the same brush, but when you know there is a threat from a specific area I don’t believe it is unreasonable to concentrate on that area. For the true blue bigots out there it will be interesting to see what they do when they board an aircraft with a Muslim Cap and F/O!
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I agree with you 100% there BISH...........
Again, this whole debate, and sad state of affairs is exactly what these sick b*stards want.......
The thing is how to we cure this 'disease' of thought....
Again, this whole debate, and sad state of affairs is exactly what these sick b*stards want.......
The thing is how to we cure this 'disease' of thought....
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Read so much PpruNe lately, I can't remember who originally suggested the Herodic solution to whether it was racist or real perceived threat;
Offload the accuser(s) with the suspect pax. That should focus a few minds!
Offload the accuser(s) with the suspect pax. That should focus a few minds!
By off loading a Pax that highlights a valid concern, you risk everyone keeping quiet when perhaps they should not. Full screening, of everone, black, white, Asian etc has to be the way forward?
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Originally Posted by MarcJF
By off loading a Pax that highlights a valid concern, you risk everyone keeping quiet when perhaps they should not.
Personally, I can't understand how the crew came to the decision keep the mutinous cretins who disembarked and then comply with their demands that two passengers with valid boarding cards be offloaded (a sentiment echoed by a MON crew member I was talking to today). While awaiting further info...
!!
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EasyR, Krystal, Rev and all the other I totally agree.
I know that in such situations it is difficult to balance what is sensible to do (sit down and let's go! in this case) and what is practically possible (cabin staff always try to take care of pax even when their requests are ridiculous and/or really weird).
I want to know what the crew saw to get to the point of offloading these people. The captain/senior crew member must have been really convinced that something was going on to take such a HUGE responsibility that will probably cost monarch a lot of money. I would have been so ashamed to be part of that crew I would have probably offloaded myself after that.
As far as I have read, none of the "rebelling" pax understood a word of Arabic (pity on them, it's a truly beautiful and colourful language). Speaking in Arabic itself and keeping an eye on the watch isn't something that would require the offloading of a passenger. MUTINY - as in disobeying crew safety instructions in any situation etc - in fact is something that would make me seriously thinking of getting rid of somebody before take off and definitely something that my airline would back me up for.
I suppose these Arabian passengers went through more checks before being allowed to fly back to the UK (proving the crew&punters wrong) so I would be happy to see them take monarch to court and the crew and passengers obliged to apologise to them publicly.
This stupid (or zealous, depending on the point of view
) attitude is doing nothing but create more expedients for future attacks.
Ignorance is the world's worst desease and unfortunately it is spreading very quickly
FBW
I know that in such situations it is difficult to balance what is sensible to do (sit down and let's go! in this case) and what is practically possible (cabin staff always try to take care of pax even when their requests are ridiculous and/or really weird).
I want to know what the crew saw to get to the point of offloading these people. The captain/senior crew member must have been really convinced that something was going on to take such a HUGE responsibility that will probably cost monarch a lot of money. I would have been so ashamed to be part of that crew I would have probably offloaded myself after that.
As far as I have read, none of the "rebelling" pax understood a word of Arabic (pity on them, it's a truly beautiful and colourful language). Speaking in Arabic itself and keeping an eye on the watch isn't something that would require the offloading of a passenger. MUTINY - as in disobeying crew safety instructions in any situation etc - in fact is something that would make me seriously thinking of getting rid of somebody before take off and definitely something that my airline would back me up for.
I suppose these Arabian passengers went through more checks before being allowed to fly back to the UK (proving the crew&punters wrong) so I would be happy to see them take monarch to court and the crew and passengers obliged to apologise to them publicly.
This stupid (or zealous, depending on the point of view
) attitude is doing nothing but create more expedients for future attacks. Ignorance is the world's worst desease and unfortunately it is spreading very quickly
FBW
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Originally Posted by MarcJF
By off loading a Pax that highlights a valid concern, you risk everyone keeping quiet when perhaps they should not. Full screening, of everone, black, white, Asian etc has to be the way forward?
speaking another language, looking at the watch, and being dressed appropriately when everybody else is dressed as if they were still on the beach alone are not valid concerns!!!
Actually we could talk about sandals, bikini tops etc that people seem to wear more and more on their flight back from their holiday (even in winter!) as I do not think it is an ucceptable dress code when using public transport!!!
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If I read the story correctly, the pax who objected to flying with the 2 "Arabic-looking" men registered their complaint by getting off the aeroplane.
Any passenger is free to choose not to fly. However, if they are on non-flexible tickets, the airline is under no obligation whatsoever to help them make other arrangements. Any pax who offload themselves from one of my flights will need to be very persuasive indeed before I let them board a second time...
Any passenger is free to choose not to fly. However, if they are on non-flexible tickets, the airline is under no obligation whatsoever to help them make other arrangements. Any pax who offload themselves from one of my flights will need to be very persuasive indeed before I let them board a second time...
It really is about time we stopped referring to this new found fear of islam as "racist"
For fear of islam is entirely at the root of the problem.
The closest I can come to define the condition, is "ethnicity" since the belief system crosses many racial divides.
Can anyone come up with a more definitive term ?
For fear of islam is entirely at the root of the problem.
The closest I can come to define the condition, is "ethnicity" since the belief system crosses many racial divides.
Can anyone come up with a more definitive term ?
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Ignorance. As for I ignore what Islam is therefore I am scared of it.
I am not scared of Islam (why should I be?)
I fear bad people and their bad intentions. I fear the intentions of the integralists who blow themselves up as much as I fear the person who killed a woman in the town I used to live in just a couple of months ago (and he was british, of british origin). I fear Bush's stupidity and so on in exactly the same way. But I do not fear Islam or Christianity or Buddhism or whatever you want to call it.
But ignoring therefore being scared of something doesn't give anybody the right to behave like that
I am not scared of Islam (why should I be?)
I fear bad people and their bad intentions. I fear the intentions of the integralists who blow themselves up as much as I fear the person who killed a woman in the town I used to live in just a couple of months ago (and he was british, of british origin). I fear Bush's stupidity and so on in exactly the same way. But I do not fear Islam or Christianity or Buddhism or whatever you want to call it.
But ignoring therefore being scared of something doesn't give anybody the right to behave like that
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How about this then !!!
I am arab looking, yet i am a Captain for a UK airline,
I fly with FO's who are sometimes asian;
So should the passengers throw me off too? it just shows how stupid and out of hand this all is.
The Capt of the aircraft has the final word, I have had a similar situation, when someone said, ' we have a passenger on board who is dressed in fatigues and looks like a terrorist.' I accepted he had gone through security and immigration and flew him back without incident.
If PAX on my flight would have decided not to travel, I would have been delighted to off load them instead!
happy flying.
I fly with FO's who are sometimes asian;
So should the passengers throw me off too? it just shows how stupid and out of hand this all is.
The Capt of the aircraft has the final word, I have had a similar situation, when someone said, ' we have a passenger on board who is dressed in fatigues and looks like a terrorist.' I accepted he had gone through security and immigration and flew him back without incident.
If PAX on my flight would have decided not to travel, I would have been delighted to off load them instead!
happy flying.
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"Me ? I would take a long, hard and detailed look at the those who decided to walk off in the first place."
More worrying was the fact that chief agitator on behalf of the "observant" passengers was a college lecturer - usually the types who like to drill politically correct mumbo jumbo into the rest of us.
I presume no one here was actually on said flight, so we don't know full details, but:
1) What would be so unusual about anyone getting on a flight from Malaga, or any other airport on the Med, and speaking in Arabic, a common language in much of north Africa.
2) It is perfectly normal for someone of any religion to say a prayer before a flight. I haven't been on Saudia for a while, but this was done over the intercom when I flew with them back in the 90s - I assume it is still standard practice today on many Islamic state carriers?
3) People feel heat in different ways, not to mention the aircon at AGP, and onboard, as already mentioned above. Went to Sicily in March - for us, the weather - in the low 20s, was nice enough for t-shirts. We met some Sudanese travellers on the train who were dressed as if they were going to the North Pole - but they felt perfectly comfortable in such gear.
4) What is so unusual about anyone looking a bit scruffy on the way (back?)from Malaga? Especially for a 3am departure - anyone is going to be nervy at that time, and fear can work in both directions (pax get suspicious looks, start to get more nervous themselves and so on...)
5) Would it be too cynical to suggest the 787 announcement was rushed forward to divert attention away from this story? Probably, but doesn't alter the fact that any so-called profiling is something for trained members of staff to do, not fellow passengers.
More worrying was the fact that chief agitator on behalf of the "observant" passengers was a college lecturer - usually the types who like to drill politically correct mumbo jumbo into the rest of us.
I presume no one here was actually on said flight, so we don't know full details, but:
1) What would be so unusual about anyone getting on a flight from Malaga, or any other airport on the Med, and speaking in Arabic, a common language in much of north Africa.
2) It is perfectly normal for someone of any religion to say a prayer before a flight. I haven't been on Saudia for a while, but this was done over the intercom when I flew with them back in the 90s - I assume it is still standard practice today on many Islamic state carriers?
3) People feel heat in different ways, not to mention the aircon at AGP, and onboard, as already mentioned above. Went to Sicily in March - for us, the weather - in the low 20s, was nice enough for t-shirts. We met some Sudanese travellers on the train who were dressed as if they were going to the North Pole - but they felt perfectly comfortable in such gear.
4) What is so unusual about anyone looking a bit scruffy on the way (back?)from Malaga? Especially for a 3am departure - anyone is going to be nervy at that time, and fear can work in both directions (pax get suspicious looks, start to get more nervous themselves and so on...)
5) Would it be too cynical to suggest the 787 announcement was rushed forward to divert attention away from this story? Probably, but doesn't alter the fact that any so-called profiling is something for trained members of staff to do, not fellow passengers.
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Originally Posted by jabird
2) It is perfectly normal for someone of any religion to say a prayer before a flight. I haven't been on Saudia for a while, but this was done over the intercom when I flew with them back in the 90s - I assume it is still standard practice today on many Islamic state carriers?
Don't think I'd stand up and recite the 23rd Psalm on Saudia in any case
Against the background of the slaughter of innocents around the world by dark skinned arab/asian looking, islamic terrorists and the press furore surrounding said occurences, I do not think this to be an entirely surprising turn of events.
Remember, this is reality we are talking about, real people's lives.
Remember, this is reality we are talking about, real people's lives.
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From the Times:
Should we still conduct a thorough security search of Mr & Mrs Ponsonby, their two children Tarquin and Montgomery and their Aunt Mildred from Little Snoring by the Sea?
Or . . .
Should we just let people like them through quickly to ease congestion ?
The first eight to appear were all charged with conspiracy to murder and preparing to commit terrorism. Tanvir Hussain, 25, Ahmed Ali, 25, Umar Islam, 28, Arafat Khan, 25, Assad Ali Sarwar, 26, Adam Khatib, 19, Ibrahim Savant, 25 and Waheed Zaman, 22, were all ordered held in custody until a second court appearance on September 4.
Or . . .
Should we just let people like them through quickly to ease congestion ?
Last edited by Yarpy; 22nd Aug 2006 at 18:00.
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With the exception of the young black lad who converted, they are all Pakistani names. Not an Arab among them.
I lived and worked in the West Bank for 4 months. I couldn't tell the difference between Christian, secular and Muslim Arab males. Until I picked up some Arabic I couldn't even pick out the Armenians.
The pilot has set a dangerous precedent which will come back to haunt Monarch. How can passenger selection be left up to the other pax?
When ignorance is bliss it is folly not to have a level headed person on board.
I lived and worked in the West Bank for 4 months. I couldn't tell the difference between Christian, secular and Muslim Arab males. Until I picked up some Arabic I couldn't even pick out the Armenians.
The pilot has set a dangerous precedent which will come back to haunt Monarch. How can passenger selection be left up to the other pax?
When ignorance is bliss it is folly not to have a level headed person on board.
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Paper tiger,
I think you are confusing the two incidents (Monarch/Skywest). There was no mention of praying at Malaga, aside from the relatively obvious fact that Monarch is not an Islamic state carrier
Sorry if my point wasn't that clear, but I was trying to say that reciting verses from the Koran, which would usually have been done in Arabic, would not be unusual. I was thinking about the Skywest incident too, but accept that this wasn't the case on the ZB flight - just making a general observation.
Don't think I'd stand up and recite the 23rd Psalm on Saudia in any case
No, nor would I, but as mentioned above, if you want to visit KSA (why else would anyone fly Saudia?), then there has to be a large amount of acceptance of their way of doing things. My dad learned the hard way - at least he got through a year there, but attempts to renew his contract after 1 year proved totally fruitless after he tried educating local generals about the spread of AIDS, which of course didn't exist in their eyes, because no-one would get up to any infidelities outside marraige.
At times, we have been far too tolerant of the intolerant, but we have live up to our own standards, and not make excuses about how other countries behave.
I think you are confusing the two incidents (Monarch/Skywest). There was no mention of praying at Malaga, aside from the relatively obvious fact that Monarch is not an Islamic state carrier
Sorry if my point wasn't that clear, but I was trying to say that reciting verses from the Koran, which would usually have been done in Arabic, would not be unusual. I was thinking about the Skywest incident too, but accept that this wasn't the case on the ZB flight - just making a general observation.
Don't think I'd stand up and recite the 23rd Psalm on Saudia in any case
No, nor would I, but as mentioned above, if you want to visit KSA (why else would anyone fly Saudia?), then there has to be a large amount of acceptance of their way of doing things. My dad learned the hard way - at least he got through a year there, but attempts to renew his contract after 1 year proved totally fruitless after he tried educating local generals about the spread of AIDS, which of course didn't exist in their eyes, because no-one would get up to any infidelities outside marraige.
At times, we have been far too tolerant of the intolerant, but we have live up to our own standards, and not make excuses about how other countries behave.
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I understand that there is more to this incident than has so far been reported. I think there is a reluctance to say too much for fear of prejudicing an anticipated court case.
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What would YOU do?
Scenario:-
I am getting on to an express train - MAN - LON. I noticed an asian looking gentleman with beard, accompanied by what appeared to be a female however the ONLY part of her that could be seen were two eyes peeping out of a tiny slit in her otherwise totally black mantle from head to toe and to the end of her hands. The male was carrying a HUGE backpack and believe it or not I noticed some electrical wires popping out of one of the compartments.
Now, call me PARANOID if you like BUT I was not comfortable to travel in that train with those persons! It may be that they are perfectly nice peace loving folk, who just happen to be different from me OR maybe they are a THREAT to me and many others! BUT how do I know.
This will not get any better with the present situation and if I were on an aircraft how much more serious would I consider the possible threat to life?
I am getting on to an express train - MAN - LON. I noticed an asian looking gentleman with beard, accompanied by what appeared to be a female however the ONLY part of her that could be seen were two eyes peeping out of a tiny slit in her otherwise totally black mantle from head to toe and to the end of her hands. The male was carrying a HUGE backpack and believe it or not I noticed some electrical wires popping out of one of the compartments.
Now, call me PARANOID if you like BUT I was not comfortable to travel in that train with those persons! It may be that they are perfectly nice peace loving folk, who just happen to be different from me OR maybe they are a THREAT to me and many others! BUT how do I know.
This will not get any better with the present situation and if I were on an aircraft how much more serious would I consider the possible threat to life?