Passengers getting jittery

[Clarence Oveur]

so stop being a victim if you have nothing to hide whats the problem

How do you stop being a victim when it is other peoples fears and paranoia, that makes you one?

[corsair]

Back in the IRA days I was regularly profiled, young male, Irish not wearing a suit and then 'randomly' selected for a search. A friend of mine was searched EVERY time. He just looked the part. I never quite understood why they searched me as I was leaving the UK rather than entering. But it didn't bother me and understood the reasons. I think profiling happens whether it is officially sanctioned or not.
Unfortunately if you are in any way Asian or Arabic looking you are bound to be checked. I daresay there are many Spanish or Italian fitting the profile too. I'm afraid it's part of modern travel.

But in this case I think the passengers were being racist and unreasonable. If I was the Captain I would cheerfully shown the panicky passengers the door and not taken off the two asian guys. They passed the security check, no doubt their toothpaste and lipstick were removed from them and they were safe to board. Frankly I would feel the panicking passengers were more of a threat than the men involved.

[Flying Torquewrench]

EIDAH,

Thank you for your post. That is the way i would like to see this monarch situation handled as well.

It's is ridiculous that we offload pax because other pax complain about their Asian/Middle Eastern looks. If the people who complain don't won't to travel then offload the complainers and not the innocent asian/middle eastern looking people. If we continue this practice than we will end up with a witch hunt. The statement has to be made that we don't accept pax to judge if other people are safe to travel.

DAZ211, I can understand the point you try to bring across but unfortunately i don't agree with you. Because several muslim guys attempt a terrorist attack doesn't mean that we have to suspect everybody. And no, i don't like the nanny state and all the PC bullsh*t either. It is up to the airport security/immigration and whatsoever to decide if a pax is safe to fly and it's NOT up to other pax to make that decision. If you don't like who's on your aircraft than by al means offload yourself but don't expect the airline to offload other pax because you are not happy to fly with them. It's not YOUR decision.

And i mean this in general and not only based on race or religion.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Aren't there any legal implications to offloading someone just because someone else thinks they look a bit dodgy.

They'd presumably been through security.

Does the captain have the right to offload them because other passengers think they look dodgy?

Did the Captain think that they were indeed a 'bit dodgy' looking and required further investigation or were they offloaded due to the increasing number of passengers refusing to fly?

[jmc757]

Well it looks as if the tabloid press will go to town with this one. Its already linked on the front page of the Daily Mail's Website.

Is this what we've come to? Offloading passengers who have gone through the same security as everyone else just because fellow travellers don't like the look of them?

[PaperTiger]

Originally Posted by jmc757

Is this what we've come to? Offloading passengers who have gone through the same security as everyone else just because fellow travellers don't like the look of them?

Yup. Something about sowing the wind...
It will stop when the Captains decide to stop it. Hopefully with the full backing of their employers, which does not seem to have been the case so far. As commander, I decide who gets to fly and who doesn't (assuming all have passed security checks); anybody who disagrees is free to get off and make their own way home.

[spork]

eidah

The ladies had none of it, and threatened to offload themselves. I basically pointed out the door to them…

Sanity at last!!!

I guess it was a good thing I DIDN'T tell her our F/O was a Muslim...

PMSL!!! You should’ve got him to come back and “reassure” them!


daz211

Something that you didnt like or worried you

Oh come on! It has to be something concrete, not just a fear of somebody different.

would you not want it sorted before you departed ?

It was. The protestors were shown where the door was.

everyone has to get over this RACE thing

Why did you post what you did then?

Markflyer6580, post #20, Hear, hear!!!

I would quite happily volunteer to sit next to the “suspicious” passenger with the beard, male or female. However, I wish to be moved if I’m put next to the loonies who think they have the right to veto anyone else on board.

I totally agree with Flying Torquewrench:

offload the complainers and not the innocent asian/middle eastern looking people.

[Jordan D]

Daz - having been subject to a number of stop-and-searches by the British Police under the Terrorism Act, I have no problem with adequate and appropriate security precautions being taken.

What I do have issue with - as it appears from the press reports - is that these two passengers were noted for their apperance and skin colour. That is frankly unacceptable. If their behaviour was suspicious (as seems to be the story now coming out) then we have a new ball game.

Jordan

[eidah]

Originally Posted by Flying Torquewrench

If we continue this practice than we will end up with a witch hunt. The statement has to be made that we don't accept pax to judge if other people are safe to travel.

I totally agree. I realise we, as crew, sometimes rely on pax informing us if something is abnormal and possibly dangerous (sure, usually when a pax reports a strange light following us in the middle of the night, it's our wing, but if - against all odds and the radar - it actually was another a/c, I'd most certainly want to know about it). What I will not tolerate is pax who have let their own prejudice affect their thinking threaten me with offloading themselves. If they don't like the company, they can walk.

When all people can offer to support their theory that the pax next to them is a terrorist is "he has a beard" or "he's wearing a bulky coat", it is very difficult to determine what type of a grip of reality they have. Only spoilt children would come up with a worse excuse why they don't want to travel with someone who has a different religion.

I simply cannot understand why any self-respecting capt would listen to such reasons; and why - in our lovely PC society - the men in question in the Monarch incident didn't report him for religious intolerance. I've heard the police in the UK take that more seriously than murder these days...

[harpy]

Originally Posted by eidah

With little option the ladies settled down and we managed to take off. Shortly after the seatbelt sign had gone off another lady, who sat behind our Muslim "terrorist", approaches me and told me she was terrified because the Muslim pax was being "weird".
When I was finally pushing my drinks trolley past this highly suspicious terrorist, I noticed he was in fact sleeping peacefully - and continued to do so the whole flight.
Words paranoid and racist spring to my mind... I do understand people are concerned at a time like this, but surely they should have at least SOME faith in the apt security - even if it's Spanish (one of the major concerns for the ladies seemed to be, that things were not done the same way as in good old England. Wanted to tell her that the British Empire has collapsed quite a while ago, but self preservation stopped me. Surely the world would be a better place without people like her?)
I guess it was a good thing I DIDN'T tell her our F/O was a Muslim...

Taking your story at face value, the lady was concerned that the other passenger might be a threat to security so she spoke to you. What else should she have done? You are the representative of authority in the cabin. If a passenger can't approach you with her concerns, who can she talk to? Perhaps she had seen the security checks at the departure airport and was unimpressed. It seems unlikely that the security in Spain could have been anywhere near as strict as in the UK over the last ten days so perhaps she was right to think it inadequate. Instead of investigating her fears discretely, you stereotyped her as a racist and formed the opinion that the world would be better off without her. You say that by the time you finally pushed your drinks trolley past "this highly suspicious terrorist", he was asleep. Shouldn't you have strolled through the cabin sooner even if you guessed he was not a threat? Why do you assume she would have been unhappy to hear that your F/O was a muslim? And what has the British Empire got to do with all this?

[Easy Ryder]

Eidah heres an article for you to read http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/tra...cle1220674.ece

Your story made it into the Independant!

Harpy, the moment someone concludes they are scared of men with beards that talk differently, should, i believe automatically put into the ignorant and racist bracket.

A brown man dressed different with a beard = terrorist

A white man dressed and a unusual red costume with a beard = someone to smile at and send your kids over too and make requests.......

[eidah]

Originally Posted by harpy

Instead of investigating her fears discretely, you stereotyped her as a racist and formed the opinion that the world would be better off without her. You say that by the time you finally pushed your drinks trolley past "this highly suspicious terrorist", he was asleep. Shouldn't you have strolled through the cabin sooner even if you guessed he was not a threat? Why do you assume she would have been unhappy to hear that your F/O was a muslim? And what has the British Empire got to do with all this?

As I stated in my post, I did indeed investigate and spoke to people who had checked this pax. He had been subjected to extra security checks and nothing suspicious had been found. I tend to trust airport security even when they are not British, otherwise, should we not have representatives of the UK on every apt of the world, just in case the "bloody foreigners" don't do the job properly?

The lady in question certainly seemed to think that the Spanish security could never be as good as the British. I am under the impression that majority of PPRUNE members (and the British press, if you have read todays newspapers) find the current extra security at UK apts a laughing stock instead of necessary measures. As a non-Brit myself I found the lady's quetion "Is the CAPTAIN even British?" slightly patronising, since her consern seemed to be mostly that foreigners simply cannot do anything properly. Thus the reference to the days of the Empire.

And no, I was not rude to these people. I reassured them, and quite calmly explained to them why I, and the capt for that matter, believed they had no reason to worry. I only vented here, when the silly cows could no longer hear me...

I have always taken pax complaints seriously, but can you honestly find accusations of a man having a beard and praying in any way significant?

[harpy]

Easy Ryder said:
Harpy, the moment someone concludes they are scared of men with beards that talk differently, should, i believe automatically put into the ignorant and racist bracket.

How do you know she was "afraid of men with beards that talk differently"? She told the cabin crew about a passenger who was "being weird".


eidah said:
The lady in question certainly seemed to think that the Spanish security could never be as good as the British. I am under the impression that majority of PPRUNE members (and the British press, if you have read todays newspapers) find the current extra security at UK apts a laughing stock instead of necessary measures. As a non-Brit myself I found the lady's quetion "Is the CAPTAIN even British?" slightly patronising, since her consern seemed to be mostly that foreigners simply cannot do anything properly. Thus the reference to the days of the Empire.

You only said in your earlier post that she told you he was "being weird" and you implied that you didn't bother to investigate until you went out with the drinks trolley. Based on what you wrote in the earlier post, I think your response was inadequate.
On the subject of the extra security at British airports: It's easy to criticise, particularly in relation to the treatment of flight crews. But the government is on a hiding to nothing; they'll get no thanks for introducing the extra measures but if the measures fail, they'll get the blame. The real test of the government will be how soon they can reduce check-in times to something approaching normality while providing a high level of security. To do that, they will have to introduce passenger profiling, including a racial element. Will you then accuse the British government of racism?

[Easy Ryder]

Yes because not every muslim terrorist is arab or asian.

A white convert got caught in Australia a few years ago.... he would be missed under your 'profiling'. I believe another is stuck in Camp XRay. I'm all for hiigher security though.

Profiling is fine when its others getting the short end of the stick. Turn it around and you would be screaming about it...

[Superpilot]

Been on numerous flights since the raids as my British Asian self, reading various flight mags, catching the odd eye or two. Vast majority of people have been decent and not suspecting. Even managed to get a flight deck visit after landing. So the truth is most ordinary (and decent) people would not behave in a racist like way when in the presence of Muslims on a flight, even those who like aviation! Therefore, it's likely said flight was at least half full of bucket and spader's from some bnp supporting town.

[harpy]

Originally Posted by Easy Ryder

Yes because not every muslim terrorist is arab or asian.
A white convert got caught in Australia a few years ago.... he would be missed under your 'profiling'. I believe another is stuck in Camp XRay. I'm all for hiigher security though.
Profiling is fine when its others getting the short end of the stick. Turn it around and you would be screaming about it...

I didn't suggest profiling solely on race but that profiling should include a racial element. It should also include a religious element. I don't think of profiling as giving someone else the short end of the stick. Done sensitively, it should not involve humiliation for anyone.

[eidah]

I'm sorry Harpy, you may not have understood me previously.

When the FIRST lady told me a pax was being "weird" I naturally asked her how he was "weird". Her explanation was, that he was muslim, nervous, had a beard and had been praying at the terminal.

As far as profiling goes, beeing muslim and nervous can - under the current circumstances - be of some significance. Having a beard and praying must never be in a civilised society concidered a thread of any kind.

When the SECOND lady approached me after take off and said she was scared of sitting behind the man who had been weird in the terminal, I was all ready aware of the facts, there was nothing left to investigate.

My point is, that certain British people seem to have descented to the level of medieval peasants in their witch-hunt, ignoring evidence AND basic human rights in their intolerance of muslims, and I find this, frankly, disgusting.

[spork]

The Indie

"We were coming back to Britain with a load of people in flipflops and shorts but the two men were wearing jumpers and leather jackets," he said.

I know who I’d rather fly with…

harpy

profiling should include a racial element. It should also include a religious element.

I’d defy anyone to easily tell my race and religion. How long will security want to work this out? Will they be employing theologists?

[Superpilot]

Situation, you are seen to have been:

• Brown skinned
• Young
• Muslim
• Male
• Reading about aeroplanes!
• Looking deep into the flightdeck everytime the door opened
• Telling your mate you thought Bush was a w****r

Someone, on the plane shouts "Terrorist". The entire plane goes into a frenzy. Anti-terrorist squad escorts you off the plane with a gun pointed at you. They frisk you, to discover:

• A Bluetooth GPS
• A mobile phone with a photo of a flightdeck as the wallpaper
• A PocketPC device with instructions on how to get to 'Aviation House'

Police visit your home, and find:

• Internet links to anti-Bush, anti-war websites.
• Your computers internet history showing you've been to pilot forums, trying to gain knowledge about whatever it was you were probably going to do that day.
• A copy of the Quran in your cupboard, alongside 'Pooley's Flight Guide', 'Flying the big jets' and 'Stupid White Men'
• A Pilot License, and a logbook proving you've been "surveying" the sites.
• An airband radio with all the frequencies tuned in.

...Under current anti-terror legislation, someone like you is allowed to be locked away without being charged for nearly 3 weeks, in the process recking your whole life, probably rendering you jobless, unemployable and a whole lot more.

That someone coule be me, and thousands of other people. Therefore to your racial profiling.

[PAXboy]

We can but hope that the two men thus treated will have the courage and effort to take Monarch to court. Now, I am well aware of the small print about Rites of Carriage and all taht but this really is spectacularly bad. If these two managed to travel later that day without let or hindrance, then they are genuine.