SECURITY - Revised Uk Rules (14 Aug 2006)
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PV,
The real issue is that collectively, in a sociological way, we are unable to accept what Bruce Schneier´s demonstrates way better that a pprune discussion.
Globally, you, me, a bunch of other people are willing to accept and support his opinion. We have no problem in calling the measures stupid and useless. Perhaps, is because "we", let´s call us the the "criticists", culturally have little respect for the Authority, not just because "we" understand the technicalities better than others.
Of course, not everyone is sharing the same indipendence of thinking, and even less people is willing to put in discussion decisions that are made in the name of safety.
Not being this an issue that can put a Gov.mnt at risk of loosing next elections, nor a change in heading of the Securty Forces, decisions will be always taken in total hipocracy where the only objective is to transmit to the general public (that is everyone excpet the criticists) a sense of security, that something is being done, and you won´t die just because you are going to see you aunt in Birmmingham. Plus all the under the desk compormises and exchange of favours or revenges taken beween the various actors.
It would be unreasonable to expect a change in the way the measures are takenn, and honesty I hope the terrorist will not change the target from being Air Travel mainly, as apparently it summarizes the Freedom and the spine of the business of the Western World. There, something can be done, more or less sustentably, more or less disruptively. Other areas of our everyday life, as we have tragically seen, are much more idfficult or simply impossible to protect.
The real issue is that collectively, in a sociological way, we are unable to accept what Bruce Schneier´s demonstrates way better that a pprune discussion.
Globally, you, me, a bunch of other people are willing to accept and support his opinion. We have no problem in calling the measures stupid and useless. Perhaps, is because "we", let´s call us the the "criticists", culturally have little respect for the Authority, not just because "we" understand the technicalities better than others.
Of course, not everyone is sharing the same indipendence of thinking, and even less people is willing to put in discussion decisions that are made in the name of safety.
Not being this an issue that can put a Gov.mnt at risk of loosing next elections, nor a change in heading of the Securty Forces, decisions will be always taken in total hipocracy where the only objective is to transmit to the general public (that is everyone excpet the criticists) a sense of security, that something is being done, and you won´t die just because you are going to see you aunt in Birmmingham. Plus all the under the desk compormises and exchange of favours or revenges taken beween the various actors.
It would be unreasonable to expect a change in the way the measures are takenn, and honesty I hope the terrorist will not change the target from being Air Travel mainly, as apparently it summarizes the Freedom and the spine of the business of the Western World. There, something can be done, more or less sustentably, more or less disruptively. Other areas of our everyday life, as we have tragically seen, are much more idfficult or simply impossible to protect.
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WHAT THE MEDIA TELLS ME, COMPARED WITH MY EXPERIENCE YESTERDAY
I can't say I have ever subscribed to Conspiracy Theories, but there are some very odd contradictions between what I read and watch on the media, compared with what I actually experienced at Terminal 1 yesterday on a day-trip to Malaga with GB Airways!
There most certainly are some very impressive delays and good photographic scenes outside the building - a very large tent filled with an assortment of bent and broken chairs, plenty of rubbish, loads of heavily armed police and an army of BA staff in yellow jackets (plus several hundred passengers....).
The plan is you wait outside until a very nice sounding BA man on a very effective PA tells you which zone is now checking-in your flight. This is the cause of most delays, because plenty of people are arriving too early and then have to wait for their flight to open and they cannot go inside. Each flight was opening for check-in about 1 hour 30 minutes before its departure time.
I had checked-in online (this facility was restored on Sunday evening) and I had printed the boarding passes. Additionally I had no carry-on or checked baggage at all. I managed to enter the terminal because I had no bags (though there was no restriction at all on people entering on the arrivals level and simply going upstairs...........).
Inside, the check-in desks (both BA and the other carriers) were less busy than 06.00 on a normal Monday morning (as most of you will know, normally a most frenetic time of the day).
All of the self-service check-in machines (and the associated Fast Bag Drop desks) were open and working (with no waiting), so you did not actually have to queue at all. However, the normal check-in desks did all have queues (though not exceptionally long).
As I already had boarding passes, I went directly to the Security area. THIS WAS A REVELATION!. About 3 or 4 positions were open, but there was no queue at any one. I simply walked through the empty zigzag of queue lines right to the x-ray machines and was through (including a pat-down) in moments.
Once in the departure lounge, everything was eerily quiet - not at all busy, in fact almost deserted.
My experience conflicts absolutely with all the press stories about "delays at Security", because there were none! All the delays were outside and very visible, but they were not resulting from delays with Security. Hence my comment about Conspiracy Theories!
However, the big story I have yet to read about anywhere, is the very significant disruption to baggage handling (well, with BA anyway). On the bus out to the aircraft ona remote stand, I saw mountains of bags (I often go this way, but the piles were on a profoundly larger scale than normal!).
Our aircraft was late boarding (blamed on the crew being delayed at Security) and then we were advised of a 30 minute ATC delay (the implication being we had missed our slot). However, they did not even start loading the baggage into the hold until this 30 minute delay was announced, so I really do doubt it was caused by ATC!
On my return to T1 the same evening, almost every spare space in the baggage reclaim hall was occupied by a multitude of trolleys, each piled high with bags which had clearly not been reunited with the passengers.
With this obvious risk of delayed baggage and, as the new carry-on rules still prohibit such handy things as shaving kit, toothpaste, deodorant, etc., a short trip with an overnight stay will continue to be a challenge!
Perhaps significantly, the flight disruption pages of the BA website now have a "convenient" link to a lost baggage claim form........................
Question 1: How did they manage to source so many thousands of clear plastic bags instantly - and they have still not run out!
Question 2: How is it the BAA were able to initiate the new rules within a couple of hours of the Government's instruction very very early last Thursday morning and yet they could start the new revised rules until very late Monday evening "because they have to brief all their security staff"?
I can't say I have ever subscribed to Conspiracy Theories, but there are some very odd contradictions between what I read and watch on the media, compared with what I actually experienced at Terminal 1 yesterday on a day-trip to Malaga with GB Airways!
There most certainly are some very impressive delays and good photographic scenes outside the building - a very large tent filled with an assortment of bent and broken chairs, plenty of rubbish, loads of heavily armed police and an army of BA staff in yellow jackets (plus several hundred passengers....).
The plan is you wait outside until a very nice sounding BA man on a very effective PA tells you which zone is now checking-in your flight. This is the cause of most delays, because plenty of people are arriving too early and then have to wait for their flight to open and they cannot go inside. Each flight was opening for check-in about 1 hour 30 minutes before its departure time.
I had checked-in online (this facility was restored on Sunday evening) and I had printed the boarding passes. Additionally I had no carry-on or checked baggage at all. I managed to enter the terminal because I had no bags (though there was no restriction at all on people entering on the arrivals level and simply going upstairs...........).
Inside, the check-in desks (both BA and the other carriers) were less busy than 06.00 on a normal Monday morning (as most of you will know, normally a most frenetic time of the day).
All of the self-service check-in machines (and the associated Fast Bag Drop desks) were open and working (with no waiting), so you did not actually have to queue at all. However, the normal check-in desks did all have queues (though not exceptionally long).
As I already had boarding passes, I went directly to the Security area. THIS WAS A REVELATION!. About 3 or 4 positions were open, but there was no queue at any one. I simply walked through the empty zigzag of queue lines right to the x-ray machines and was through (including a pat-down) in moments.
Once in the departure lounge, everything was eerily quiet - not at all busy, in fact almost deserted.
My experience conflicts absolutely with all the press stories about "delays at Security", because there were none! All the delays were outside and very visible, but they were not resulting from delays with Security. Hence my comment about Conspiracy Theories!
However, the big story I have yet to read about anywhere, is the very significant disruption to baggage handling (well, with BA anyway). On the bus out to the aircraft ona remote stand, I saw mountains of bags (I often go this way, but the piles were on a profoundly larger scale than normal!).
Our aircraft was late boarding (blamed on the crew being delayed at Security) and then we were advised of a 30 minute ATC delay (the implication being we had missed our slot). However, they did not even start loading the baggage into the hold until this 30 minute delay was announced, so I really do doubt it was caused by ATC!
On my return to T1 the same evening, almost every spare space in the baggage reclaim hall was occupied by a multitude of trolleys, each piled high with bags which had clearly not been reunited with the passengers.
With this obvious risk of delayed baggage and, as the new carry-on rules still prohibit such handy things as shaving kit, toothpaste, deodorant, etc., a short trip with an overnight stay will continue to be a challenge!
Perhaps significantly, the flight disruption pages of the BA website now have a "convenient" link to a lost baggage claim form........................
Question 1: How did they manage to source so many thousands of clear plastic bags instantly - and they have still not run out!
Question 2: How is it the BAA were able to initiate the new rules within a couple of hours of the Government's instruction very very early last Thursday morning and yet they could start the new revised rules until very late Monday evening "because they have to brief all their security staff"?
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
Well, maybe they are trying:
Profiling plan angers UK Muslims
Tuesday, August 15, 2006 Posted: 1356 GMT
The British government says it is working on new security procedures at airports.
LONDON, England (CNN) -- The British government is considering a system of passenger profiling that includes checks on travelers' ethnic or religious background, according to media reports.
The planned system of tougher airport checks would create a new offense of "traveling whilst Asian," according to one of Britain's most senior Muslim police officers...
Well, maybe they are trying:
Profiling plan angers UK Muslims
Tuesday, August 15, 2006 Posted: 1356 GMT
The British government says it is working on new security procedures at airports.
LONDON, England (CNN) -- The British government is considering a system of passenger profiling that includes checks on travelers' ethnic or religious background, according to media reports.
The planned system of tougher airport checks would create a new offense of "traveling whilst Asian," according to one of Britain's most senior Muslim police officers...
I see there are a couple of acidic comments from people in the muslim community and while I don't think such figures are representative I think it is worrying that a good number of British muslims are in a state of denial as to whether there is a problem within their community. There quite clearly is a problem.
It will be quite interesting to see what action the government take, it's clear that they've prevented a few terrorist operations of epic proportions (probably) but eventually one will succeed and when that happens the government will be blamed for not doing enough.
But what can they do ? Though the people recently arrested have all been British it's clear that there is some foreign infuence. Here are few options, most of which I don't advocate
(i) Complete withdrawal of visas for people from suspect countries. All those in the UK on such a visa are deported immediately. No exceptions.
(ii) Registration and monitoring systems for all mosques. Records kept of all people visting such establisments. Permanent surveillence.
(iii) Law passed making it illegal for British citizens to spend money in suspect countries (similar to the US system for Cuba)
(iv) Passenger profiling. Not possible to buy an airline ticket less than three days in advance
(v) Airport security passed from airport authorities to the Police Service
(vi) Compulsory ID cards introduced with a legal obligation to carry them at all times.
(vii) The last and most extreme action, normally only taken in times of war, Internment.
Thread Starter
Personally I fancy a little moustache, funny walk, natty black uniform and a camp or two....
NOT!!
Identify and interrogate. Seems fair, so long as it's done by ticket ident/check rather than by some dimwit thinking "Hullo - he am suspiciously dark of hue. Ho-yus - him might be a terrorist. Especially since him smells of curry".....
The alternative forms of transport do seem rather attractive right now!
NOT!!
Identify and interrogate. Seems fair, so long as it's done by ticket ident/check rather than by some dimwit thinking "Hullo - he am suspiciously dark of hue. Ho-yus - him might be a terrorist. Especially since him smells of curry".....
The alternative forms of transport do seem rather attractive right now!
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Posted this in JB. Someone suggested I post it here.
A few nights ago at dinner, a career military officer who's profession is "security related," said to me, "The moment we start looking for objects and not people at airport gates the system's totally ineffective."
He and another professional in this field spoke about software that can analyze video images for body and eye movements that indicate specific types of stress related to threat, and software that analyzes speech for similar indicators. They also spoke of lessons learned at failed security checkpoints in places like Iraq and also at places like the Capitol building in Washington DC. The discussion became far more technical than I was able to fully grasp.
Despite all the technology talk, though, they were both strongly in favor of highly trained people capable of making rational decisions under pressure being the key ingredient in all security plans.
The upshot was that two people at the table who have made careers out of studying and implementing security proceedures agreed that the current airline security process is ludicrous and is "designed to face the previous threat, not the future one, the one we already know about, not the one we haven't thought of yet."
The military officer in question currently teaches at West Point and the other fellow he was speaking with about this is the director of security for a Fortune 50 company (former military).
He and another professional in this field spoke about software that can analyze video images for body and eye movements that indicate specific types of stress related to threat, and software that analyzes speech for similar indicators. They also spoke of lessons learned at failed security checkpoints in places like Iraq and also at places like the Capitol building in Washington DC. The discussion became far more technical than I was able to fully grasp.
Despite all the technology talk, though, they were both strongly in favor of highly trained people capable of making rational decisions under pressure being the key ingredient in all security plans.
The upshot was that two people at the table who have made careers out of studying and implementing security proceedures agreed that the current airline security process is ludicrous and is "designed to face the previous threat, not the future one, the one we already know about, not the one we haven't thought of yet."
The military officer in question currently teaches at West Point and the other fellow he was speaking with about this is the director of security for a Fortune 50 company (former military).
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El!
Just points iv (but without the 3 day limit) and vi.
In such circumstances it's also worth looking at El Al's security setup. Their staff are trained in specific aspects of security. Anyone ever travelled on El Al ? You appear to be asked the same questions over and over again but by different staff members and there is obviously a reason for that. El Al, probably the most vulnerable airline in the world to terrorism, have an outstanding record of stopping such people getting on board. Of course checking in and boarding an El Al flight takes a lot longer than a normal flight so we come back to the question of inconvenience. Also, if BA were to implement such a policy that would have to completely retrain all their customer facing staff, some might not be capable of performing their new responsibilities, after all, it becomes a security job first and foremost and would have to be moved, it would cost a fortune. I'm not a 100% certain but I think the Isreali govt meets most of the costs of security on El Al.
Which ones do you advocate, SXB ?
In such circumstances it's also worth looking at El Al's security setup. Their staff are trained in specific aspects of security. Anyone ever travelled on El Al ? You appear to be asked the same questions over and over again but by different staff members and there is obviously a reason for that. El Al, probably the most vulnerable airline in the world to terrorism, have an outstanding record of stopping such people getting on board. Of course checking in and boarding an El Al flight takes a lot longer than a normal flight so we come back to the question of inconvenience. Also, if BA were to implement such a policy that would have to completely retrain all their customer facing staff, some might not be capable of performing their new responsibilities, after all, it becomes a security job first and foremost and would have to be moved, it would cost a fortune. I'm not a 100% certain but I think the Isreali govt meets most of the costs of security on El Al.
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I was wrong about the BAA handbaggage gauges at Gatwick - here is a BBC article which includes a photo of the new gauge:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4794489.stm
Note the clever use of medium grade mdf, I would guess that BAA must have had to wait for almost 24 hours to get these babies made and delivered??? Plenty of time to brief the staff then.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4794489.stm
Note the clever use of medium grade mdf, I would guess that BAA must have had to wait for almost 24 hours to get these babies made and delivered??? Plenty of time to brief the staff then.
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I don't think those types of technology are the answer in an airport but I'd agree with you about 'highly trained people able to make rational decisions under pressure' It should be remembered that the airport security itself is the last line of defence and extra resources are probably better spent on security procedures before a passenger arrives for travel.
That said it's also worth looking at airport security from a different perspective. Both checkin and BAA security focus on items and not people, these staff members don't really have security expertise nor do they have a remit or the training to profile people or their behaviour (going back to the El Al comments) When in an airport the only person you are likely to encounter with any behavioural expertise is at Passport Control, and he's focused on an entirely different aspect of security.
I don't think those types of technology are the answer in an airport but I'd agree with you about 'highly trained people able to make rational decisions under pressure' It should be remembered that the airport security itself is the last line of defence and extra resources are probably better spent on security procedures before a passenger arrives for travel.
That said it's also worth looking at airport security from a different perspective. Both checkin and BAA security focus on items and not people, these staff members don't really have security expertise nor do they have a remit or the training to profile people or their behaviour (going back to the El Al comments) When in an airport the only person you are likely to encounter with any behavioural expertise is at Passport Control, and he's focused on an entirely different aspect of security.
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And we have a winner!
Originally Posted by SXB
It should be remembered that the airport security itself is the last line of defence and extra resources are probably better spent on security procedures before a passenger arrives for travel.
And for your further pre-flight entertainment... the expert deployment of sophisticated technological assets for the common good...
Report: X-ray machines don't detect explosives in shoes
Tuesday, August 15, 2006; Posted: 8:25 a.m. EDT (12:25 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The government's new order that all airline passengers put their shoes through X-ray machines won't help screeners find a liquid or gel that can be used as a bomb.
The machines are unable to detect explosives, according to a Homeland Security report on aviation screening recently obtained by The Associated Press.
The Transportation Security Administration ordered the shoe-scanning requirement as it fine-tunes new security procedures.
Link to text of full article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/15/Ter....ap/index.html
PS: The opinions in my previous post aren't mine, but things said by career experts in the field. I'm far from expert in these matters.
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Sorry SXB, I have to disagree about the utility of ID cards (your point vi above).
This is a bureaucrat's wet dream - it would cost at least £20 billion (which could buy us much more cost-effective security measures, see below), HMG have repeatedly demonstrated that they could never get the necessary computer systems to work and, more signifcantly, it would do almost nothing to improve security. The perpetrators of 9/11, 7/7 and the Madrid bombings all had perfectly valid ID, the problem was that the authorities had insufficient grasp of what they were up to. What is needed is better intelligence, of which (I fervently hope) recent arrests in the UK are the first signs.
Spend the money on recruiting lots of Muslims into MI5!
This is a bureaucrat's wet dream - it would cost at least £20 billion (which could buy us much more cost-effective security measures, see below), HMG have repeatedly demonstrated that they could never get the necessary computer systems to work and, more signifcantly, it would do almost nothing to improve security. The perpetrators of 9/11, 7/7 and the Madrid bombings all had perfectly valid ID, the problem was that the authorities had insufficient grasp of what they were up to. What is needed is better intelligence, of which (I fervently hope) recent arrests in the UK are the first signs.
Spend the money on recruiting lots of Muslims into MI5!
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Pax Vobiscum
I see your point. I'm not suggesting that ID cards in themselves would deter terrorists but it's another aide for the police in the UK, who, at the moment don't really have any way of confirming someones identity when they stop them in the street or in the car (id not being compulsory in the UK, nor is carrying a drivers license, proof of ownership or certificate of insurance while driving a vehicle) Identity cards are only as good as the system for verifying them, most countries don't have such a system like computer terminals in police cars. Verification can, at least, establish whether a card is genuine.
Your point about the £20 billion ,for implemenation of ID cards, being better spent on other aspects of security is a very strong argument. I didn't realise that was the cost of implementing such a system.
I see your point. I'm not suggesting that ID cards in themselves would deter terrorists but it's another aide for the police in the UK, who, at the moment don't really have any way of confirming someones identity when they stop them in the street or in the car (id not being compulsory in the UK, nor is carrying a drivers license, proof of ownership or certificate of insurance while driving a vehicle) Identity cards are only as good as the system for verifying them, most countries don't have such a system like computer terminals in police cars. Verification can, at least, establish whether a card is genuine.
Your point about the £20 billion ,for implemenation of ID cards, being better spent on other aspects of security is a very strong argument. I didn't realise that was the cost of implementing such a system.
Last edited by SXB; 15th Aug 2006 at 23:26.
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Just another article showing up the idiocy of the current rules:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...314994,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...314994,00.html
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On 1 August the new threat level definitions were introduced. The level was then set at "Severe". (= Attack highly likely but not imminent)
(See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5233562.stm)
On 10 August the level was raised to "Critical" (attack imminent and based on the arrests etc reasonably so)
On 13/14 August it was lowered to "Severe".
And this bizarre sized handbaggage limit was introduced. One wonders why not earlier?
(See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5233562.stm)
On 10 August the level was raised to "Critical" (attack imminent and based on the arrests etc reasonably so)
On 13/14 August it was lowered to "Severe".
And this bizarre sized handbaggage limit was introduced. One wonders why not earlier?
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Originally Posted by IB4138
Dr Reid, the UK's Scottish Home Secretary, is to attempt to have other EU States adopt the draconian security measures that the UK has, at a meeting he is to chair in London.
Dr Reid, the UK's Scottish Home Secretary, is to attempt to have other EU States adopt the draconian security measures that the UK has, at a meeting he is to chair in London.
In areas of such as criminal justice each state still holds a veto, the Commission has long wanted this particular veto removed as they say it would help in the fight against terrorism.
Let's face it, BAA'a ability to organise security checking has been zero for months. Especially at T4. I've been through there 9 times this year, there has always been a queue of at least 10 minutes on the so-called 'fast track', and there's always been at least two of the machines not in use.
In 'slow track' , I've never seen all the machines in use.
I hope Willy Walsh and BA manage to bankrupt BAA! The sooner that gang of useless incompetents are out, the better. Incidentally, in the August AAIB Bulletin, there's a report on the collison between a A340 and B777 on the taxiway at LHR. The report refers to a similar collison in 1997, where HAL undertook to set up a working party to consider runway holding areas. It also says that no record of the working party can be found - which suggests HAL did nothing. Says a lot for them, and their attitude to safety.
In 'slow track' , I've never seen all the machines in use.
I hope Willy Walsh and BA manage to bankrupt BAA! The sooner that gang of useless incompetents are out, the better. Incidentally, in the August AAIB Bulletin, there's a report on the collison between a A340 and B777 on the taxiway at LHR. The report refers to a similar collison in 1997, where HAL undertook to set up a working party to consider runway holding areas. It also says that no record of the working party can be found - which suggests HAL did nothing. Says a lot for them, and their attitude to safety.
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Originally Posted by SXB
It seems that technology can never replace an agile human mind...
Boy, 12, evades security clampdown
Wednesday, August 16, 2006; Posted: 12:25 p.m. EDT (16:25 GMT)
SPECIAL REPORT
LONDON, England -- Despite a high level of alert at British airports, a 12-year-old boy managed to board a plane at Gatwick without a passport, ticket or boarding pass.
..."The boy had passed through a full security screening process and we are confident there was no threat to passengers, staff or the aircraft at any time," said Stewart McDonald, a spokesman for BAA, which operates Gatwick, Heathrow and five other major UK airports...
...His mother, who cannot be named because her son is in care, said she was stunned he evaded the security checks.
Here's the link to the full article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe...boy/index.html
"The moment we start looking for objects and not people at airport gates the system's totally ineffective."