New Security
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 480
Likes: 3
From: Retford, UK
New Security
Does anyone plan on changing their travel plans as a result of the new rules?
Personally, I'm under pressure from my wife to cancel our family holiday to the US in a couple of weeks - she's worried about security and the fact that keeping small children amused on a flight for 10 hours is hard enough even when you're allowed to take books, toys, games etc.
And business trips were already a real pain, but no laptop, mobile phone or even paperwork allowed? I'll still have to go on essential trips but will probably cut my current 8 trips a year to 4. I think airlines currently rely on a lot of "non-essential" business.
I can't believe I'm the only one in a similar position. This one could be really serious for the aviation industry, worse than 9/11 and no-one has even managed to blow up a plane!
Personally, I'm under pressure from my wife to cancel our family holiday to the US in a couple of weeks - she's worried about security and the fact that keeping small children amused on a flight for 10 hours is hard enough even when you're allowed to take books, toys, games etc.
And business trips were already a real pain, but no laptop, mobile phone or even paperwork allowed? I'll still have to go on essential trips but will probably cut my current 8 trips a year to 4. I think airlines currently rely on a lot of "non-essential" business.
I can't believe I'm the only one in a similar position. This one could be really serious for the aviation industry, worse than 9/11 and no-one has even managed to blow up a plane!
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 169
Likes: 3
From: Auckland, NZ
I know my wife has said that she'll be avoiding travelling across the Atlantic on holiday in the near future (we did just that about 3 weeks ago and were thinking of going again for future hols).
Other than that I doubt that it will have much effect on our travelling plans together; she won't fly BA or any American Airline for security fears anyway (this has probably just strengthened that). But this still leaves all the Asian and European carriers to explore the rest of the world with!
I take a more fatalistic approach that if it is going to happen it is going to happen. So if that great ski trip to America comes up this winter I'll be off like a shot regardless of carrier! At the end of the day you are still more likely to get blown up on the tube going to the airport in my mind! :-)
Other than that I doubt that it will have much effect on our travelling plans together; she won't fly BA or any American Airline for security fears anyway (this has probably just strengthened that). But this still leaves all the Asian and European carriers to explore the rest of the world with!
I take a more fatalistic approach that if it is going to happen it is going to happen. So if that great ski trip to America comes up this winter I'll be off like a shot regardless of carrier! At the end of the day you are still more likely to get blown up on the tube going to the airport in my mind! :-)
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Yep, several Americans I know have now cancelled plans to come over the Atlantic. No doubt there will be some cheap transatlantic fares coming along shortly, and more money will be made by selling water on board than the ticket.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
From: N51:37:39 W1:19:16 Feel free to use as a waypoint.
No plans to change at all, I wouldnt dream of letting Terrorist scum influence my life to that extent.
I am travelling to the USA in just over a month on an American airline, these plans wont be amended. All I have done is made plans to be able to carry my camera equipment within the aircrafts hold, it has meant me buying a slighly different type of new camera bag than I had planned to.
If you change your plans then you may as well hold up a white flag.
I am travelling to the USA in just over a month on an American airline, these plans wont be amended. All I have done is made plans to be able to carry my camera equipment within the aircrafts hold, it has meant me buying a slighly different type of new camera bag than I had planned to.
If you change your plans then you may as well hold up a white flag.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: KENT, ENGLAND
Ladies and Gents
It is true to say that we are going to face long delays and disruption for some time. But this disruption is a small price to pay to ensure the safety of our loved ones. We have been facing a serious threat for the past few years, but due to our pathetic goverments, they have tryed to bury the problems under the carpet rather than deal with them head on, and only now are they and the public realising the full threat of the problems we face as a society.
What also worrys me is the quick turnaround times that cheap budget airlines have between flights. With a goverment that emplys illegal immigrants to work as cleaners and yes even immigration officers without knowing, illegals working at airports etc etc, I think a certain amount of luck also as well as hard work from the police and security services has prevented anopther atrocity. How the hell can aircraft been security sweeped properly in such short turnaround times, if even at all with some carriers Im sure? It does worry me how easy it has become to get a job in airports for people with bogus identication etc, or none at all in some cases, how hard would it be for them to smuggle something through security, thats if they don't work as security!
Could in the very near future, we see turnaround times increased to allow foe proper security checks, and if so hows this going to affect budget airlines and the consumer?
Interested to hear peoples views and thoughts.
Safe and happy landings people, and take care.
Regards
It is true to say that we are going to face long delays and disruption for some time. But this disruption is a small price to pay to ensure the safety of our loved ones. We have been facing a serious threat for the past few years, but due to our pathetic goverments, they have tryed to bury the problems under the carpet rather than deal with them head on, and only now are they and the public realising the full threat of the problems we face as a society.
What also worrys me is the quick turnaround times that cheap budget airlines have between flights. With a goverment that emplys illegal immigrants to work as cleaners and yes even immigration officers without knowing, illegals working at airports etc etc, I think a certain amount of luck also as well as hard work from the police and security services has prevented anopther atrocity. How the hell can aircraft been security sweeped properly in such short turnaround times, if even at all with some carriers Im sure? It does worry me how easy it has become to get a job in airports for people with bogus identication etc, or none at all in some cases, how hard would it be for them to smuggle something through security, thats if they don't work as security!
Could in the very near future, we see turnaround times increased to allow foe proper security checks, and if so hows this going to affect budget airlines and the consumer?
Interested to hear peoples views and thoughts.
Safe and happy landings people, and take care.
Regards
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 796
Likes: 4
From: Back of beyond
The UK incident and subsequent tightened security is going to have significant impact on business travel (which subsidises the rest of the punters).
Assuming that the current restrictions stay in place and are adopted more widely (which I fully expect, albeit in a minimally less stringent form), business travel will drop off for a number of reasons
- lack of time effectiveness on there-and-back-in-a-day European trips (time needed to check-in and retrieve your luggage, total loss of in-flight working time, significant increase in security procedures)
- reluctance to risk the loss of your notebook/Filofax/PDA/mobile/business documents,
- general re-thinking of the necessity, cost-effectiveness and risk-management aspects of travel
- the general pain in the butt of the whole thing
Airlines and airports will be forced to re-address the security and liability issues relating to checked luggage. Anyone who's halfway observant has seen the way that luggage is handled and I've had my share of suitcases-dropped-from-a-great-height.
If you restrict a customer's carry-ons to passport and ticket, you automatically assume liability for the contents of his checked-luggage. Exclusion clauses for electronic equipment etc will disappear. The courts will see to that.
Costs will increase, with RFID becoming the standard platform for providing an audit trail of luggage from check-in to retrieval, airports being forced to restructure their airside facilities to provide arrival duty-free sales to replace departure shopping and access to travel necessities in a sterile environment, major accounts (or the market) will force airlines to provide business travellers with secure and preferential transportation for checked-in hand luggage.
Multi-layered and more stringent security procedures for airport/airline employees will become standard.
The list goes on forever.
Just watch all this unfold before our very eyes....
Assuming that the current restrictions stay in place and are adopted more widely (which I fully expect, albeit in a minimally less stringent form), business travel will drop off for a number of reasons
- lack of time effectiveness on there-and-back-in-a-day European trips (time needed to check-in and retrieve your luggage, total loss of in-flight working time, significant increase in security procedures)
- reluctance to risk the loss of your notebook/Filofax/PDA/mobile/business documents,
- general re-thinking of the necessity, cost-effectiveness and risk-management aspects of travel
- the general pain in the butt of the whole thing
Airlines and airports will be forced to re-address the security and liability issues relating to checked luggage. Anyone who's halfway observant has seen the way that luggage is handled and I've had my share of suitcases-dropped-from-a-great-height.
If you restrict a customer's carry-ons to passport and ticket, you automatically assume liability for the contents of his checked-luggage. Exclusion clauses for electronic equipment etc will disappear. The courts will see to that.
Costs will increase, with RFID becoming the standard platform for providing an audit trail of luggage from check-in to retrieval, airports being forced to restructure their airside facilities to provide arrival duty-free sales to replace departure shopping and access to travel necessities in a sterile environment, major accounts (or the market) will force airlines to provide business travellers with secure and preferential transportation for checked-in hand luggage.
Multi-layered and more stringent security procedures for airport/airline employees will become standard.
The list goes on forever.
Just watch all this unfold before our very eyes....
Last edited by RevMan2; 11th August 2006 at 19:22. Reason: Edited for improved clarity
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
From: not a million miles from old BKK
It's not just a possible airline recession - it's the knock on effect.
My better half and I had lunch on the beach at Pattaya the other day. Here we are in the first two weeks of August when we should be cheek by jowel with foreign tourists and poor Pattaya is dead. Hundreds of yards of beach umbrellas, tables and chairs just unoccupied.
SARS, Bird Flu, the touble in the south and the tzunami have wreaked havok with the local tourist industry. Now this.
I can only speak for Pattaya where I live but I know the other resorts are suffering too since I am in regular touch with friends who live in Phuket and Samui as well as inland to the north (Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai).
Whole countries hopes and expectations are being destroyed by incidents like this.
What, in your opinion, would solve the problem?
My better half and I had lunch on the beach at Pattaya the other day. Here we are in the first two weeks of August when we should be cheek by jowel with foreign tourists and poor Pattaya is dead. Hundreds of yards of beach umbrellas, tables and chairs just unoccupied.
SARS, Bird Flu, the touble in the south and the tzunami have wreaked havok with the local tourist industry. Now this.
I can only speak for Pattaya where I live but I know the other resorts are suffering too since I am in regular touch with friends who live in Phuket and Samui as well as inland to the north (Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai).
Whole countries hopes and expectations are being destroyed by incidents like this.
What, in your opinion, would solve the problem?
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 480
Likes: 3
From: Retford, UK
I think the whole long-haul holiday business is going to suffer even more than it is already. Anecdotal I know, but a friend recently pulled out of buying a beautiful holiday property in Thailand. It was partly an investment and he doesn't think it's a good one anymore and that was even before the latest plot.
I don't know the answer. It's worrying that we have reached this stage without any big trigger like 9/11 was. I can't believe that a passenger jet hasn't been shot down yet by a surface-to-air missile - surely that's only a matter of time and what will happen then?
I don't know the answer. It's worrying that we have reached this stage without any big trigger like 9/11 was. I can't believe that a passenger jet hasn't been shot down yet by a surface-to-air missile - surely that's only a matter of time and what will happen then?
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 2,222
Likes: 60
From: Anderlecht
I fly about 60 times a year. Half of these flights are between the Benelux countries and the UK. My hand baggage weighs the required 6 kg. I can't risk placing any of my hand baggage items in my checked baggage. By all means ban liquids and gels and even mobiles (yipee), but if I can't take all my other stuff, then I will definitely have to review my future travel plans to the UK. It will most probably mean taking the car, adding 6 hours each way to my trip, not to mention the fatigue factor. I appreciate that these are difficult times, but if these type of restrictions persist I believe that it will affect the industry considerably.
Sims Fly Virtually
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 704
Likes: 0
From: Used to be 3rd Sand Dune from the Left - But now I'm somewhere else somewhere else.
Business - I travel quite a lot around the Middle-East, where the latest happenings have not yet had an effect, but the post-9/11 security means a 2-hour check-in for almost any flight.
Riyadh-Dammam. 400km. 45 min Domestic flight but still almost as quick to drive. (Plus,you have your car when you get there and you can leave at the timeyou want)
Riyadh-Bahrain. 470 km. 50 minutes International and just as quick to drive
Riyadh-Doha. around 600 km and it would probably be better to fly - if there were daily flights
Riyadh-Dubai. about 1300 km and should be a "no-brainer", but two out of the last 4 sectors, the flight has been delayed so badly by sick aircraft that it competed with the 12-hour driving time!
I recently had a meeting to attend in Doha and I was going to be in Bahrain prior to that. It's quite a long drive back through Saudi so I decided to fly (30 minutes flying time), as there's quite a few daily flights. The entire day (travelling and meeting) was around 10 hours,and I could only fit in about 3 1/2 hours for the meeting. The rest of the time was "farting around in airports"
If that had been in Europe, with the risk of the lappy and the PDA-phone being "lost" or damaged in the hold, I wouldn't have flown.
Holidays - Not too much choice here. My alternatives, if I want to see my mother and my kids, are either to spend 2-3 weeks each way on a ship (and turn around as soon as I get to UK!) or drive; probably around the same travelling time. As for the daughter in USA, the only other option there is to swim!
So on the 23rd September, I'll be on GF007 to London and then (after the GatBash!) on US099 to Philadelphia. Just hope things have eased up a bit by then and the lappy and PDA-phone (essential as I have to keep in touch with work) can travel safely with me "upstairs"
Riyadh-Dammam. 400km. 45 min Domestic flight but still almost as quick to drive. (Plus,you have your car when you get there and you can leave at the timeyou want)
Riyadh-Bahrain. 470 km. 50 minutes International and just as quick to drive
Riyadh-Doha. around 600 km and it would probably be better to fly - if there were daily flights
Riyadh-Dubai. about 1300 km and should be a "no-brainer", but two out of the last 4 sectors, the flight has been delayed so badly by sick aircraft that it competed with the 12-hour driving time!
I recently had a meeting to attend in Doha and I was going to be in Bahrain prior to that. It's quite a long drive back through Saudi so I decided to fly (30 minutes flying time), as there's quite a few daily flights. The entire day (travelling and meeting) was around 10 hours,and I could only fit in about 3 1/2 hours for the meeting. The rest of the time was "farting around in airports"
If that had been in Europe, with the risk of the lappy and the PDA-phone being "lost" or damaged in the hold, I wouldn't have flown.
Holidays - Not too much choice here. My alternatives, if I want to see my mother and my kids, are either to spend 2-3 weeks each way on a ship (and turn around as soon as I get to UK!) or drive; probably around the same travelling time. As for the daughter in USA, the only other option there is to swim!
So on the 23rd September, I'll be on GF007 to London and then (after the GatBash!) on US099 to Philadelphia. Just hope things have eased up a bit by then and the lappy and PDA-phone (essential as I have to keep in touch with work) can travel safely with me "upstairs"
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 82
Likes: 3
From: UK
Originally Posted by MichaelJP59
Does anyone plan on changing their travel plans as a result of the new rules?
of domestic business travel by air that my colleagues and I undertake.
I'm not willing to check in my laptop. If it goes AWOL or gets broken
then the whole purpose of my trip will normally get squandered and I
lose the opportunity to work.
Same goes for my mobile.
Same goes for my car key.
I would be tempted only if the industry covers the consequential
loss as well as the material loss. (The reason that I think the
industry should cover it is that while I still end up paying for it
at the end of the day the carriers and handlers get incentivised
to make sure problems don't occur in the first place).
So train or car will be first choice for domestic travel and the pattern
will be changed to trying to cluster/combine travel.
As for long haul travel then there are few alternative options so that
will just have to be dealt with.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
From: East Midlands
Already happening... The company I work for is already now mandating Virgin Trains or GNER for domestic travel, rather than BA or BD or whatever, because they won't risk us losing laptops - not the laptop itself so much as the inconvenience and the sensitive data. Most of the company's bookings are short notice peak period, so it means higher fares. And next week, some folks are going from the UK to the USA via Paris, with the journey to Paris on Eurostar, to avoid the stupid regulations here.
If the government don't change the rules soon, this is going to cripple airlines for years to come. The sad thing is that taking stuff on isn't a problem - in every other country in the world hand baggage is still allowed including when flying from the USA to the UK, although more stringent inspection is commonplace. The thing that is different here is that the government and/or the airport operators aren't prepared to do the physical inspections, finding it easier just to impose an idiotic ban on everything.
Andy
If the government don't change the rules soon, this is going to cripple airlines for years to come. The sad thing is that taking stuff on isn't a problem - in every other country in the world hand baggage is still allowed including when flying from the USA to the UK, although more stringent inspection is commonplace. The thing that is different here is that the government and/or the airport operators aren't prepared to do the physical inspections, finding it easier just to impose an idiotic ban on everything.
Andy
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
From: Nova
More UK security staff required by Ryanair!
I see on Sky News, Ryanair are demanding the UK government provide more security staff. Last time I checked, Ryanair were an Irish airline!
How do they intend to share the cost????
How do they intend to share the cost????
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
From: Office
Perhaps, business class pax should get a 'safe' each to put their valuables in. This is to be provided within the business class cabin so that they don't have to be far from them. But they won't be permitted to access them in flight.
That should achieve the same 'security result' as making people put their laptops in the hold, but without the risk of loss or damage.
That should achieve the same 'security result' as making people put their laptops in the hold, but without the risk of loss or damage.
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
From: Euroland
Yes but the airports concerned are in the UK.
BA are also criticising the airports authority, BAA for their handling of the situation. Airlines are being told by BAA to cancel a percentage of their flights to help alleviate the problem. Clearly this situation cannot continue indefinitely.
Its a major problem for all stakeholders.
BA are also criticising the airports authority, BAA for their handling of the situation. Airlines are being told by BAA to cancel a percentage of their flights to help alleviate the problem. Clearly this situation cannot continue indefinitely.
Its a major problem for all stakeholders.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,395
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
54 business class flights so far this year - 6 last week.
But I'm now giving serious consideration to Eurotunnel and driving myself to places such as Bremen, Cologne...even Friedrichshafen.
I'm simply not prepared to risk losing computer, phone, car keys and important documents due to absurd UK security rules, nor tolerate the delays at security screening points.
What a shame the SeaCat isn't still sailing on the Dover-Oostende route..... Drive to Dover (3 hours) good 2 hour break with a guaranteed seat at a table on the SeaCat to relax or do a little work, then another 6 hours to Bremen. Sooo much better than being treated like a convict by some bottom-fondling failed wheelclamper in a 3 hour airline security queue!
But I'm now giving serious consideration to Eurotunnel and driving myself to places such as Bremen, Cologne...even Friedrichshafen.
I'm simply not prepared to risk losing computer, phone, car keys and important documents due to absurd UK security rules, nor tolerate the delays at security screening points.
What a shame the SeaCat isn't still sailing on the Dover-Oostende route..... Drive to Dover (3 hours) good 2 hour break with a guaranteed seat at a table on the SeaCat to relax or do a little work, then another 6 hours to Bremen. Sooo much better than being treated like a convict by some bottom-fondling failed wheelclamper in a 3 hour airline security queue!
Last edited by BEagle; 12th August 2006 at 17:15.
The Analog Kid
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: Brecon Beacons National Park
Originally Posted by BEagle
Drive to Dover (3 hours) good 2 hour break with a guaranteed seat at a table on the SeaCat to relax or do a little work, then another 6 hours to Bremen. Sooo much better than being treated like a convict by some bottom-fondling failed wheelclamper in a 3 hour airline security queue!
Cheers,
Rich.
(Edited due to inability to quote BEagle's location correctly or choose correct Bremen in MapQuest
)
