US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
None but a blockhead
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London, UK
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
The brother of a friend of mine just had a very upsetting experience, which I thought I'd pass on in case others are at risk.
He's a Brit who lives in America with his children, and he's recently got dual citizenship. Although he applied for a US passport as soon as he could, his local office is on a go-slow and is four months behind on processing applications. He wanted to come to London for Christmas, and flew in on his UK passport with the rest of the family.
On trying to leave after Christmas, though, US Air refused to let him on the plane. Although he'd checked with both the US Passport office and the airline before leaving the US, and both had told him that his UK passport would be fine, the airline at Gatwick disagreed. Two and a half hours of discussion didn't move them on this point, and he had to return to London together with his very confused and miserable children to camp out on a friend's floor until he could get an emergency US passport from the London embassy.
That took four days. The embassy says that it gets a couple of cases like this a day (it didn't help that they could't find his original application on the computer because it had been misfiled under Ukraine instead of Uk - that also happens a lot) and asked him to complain to the US Passport office when he got back. The embassy thinks that bad advice is being dispensed by that organisation, but their pleas have been ignored. (From what I know of US bureaucracy, I find this very easy to believe.)
Apparently, one of the problems is that his UK passport referred to his green card which had of course been surrendered when he got citizenship.
US Air weren't much help either - they initially refused to rebook him and his children and said they'd have to go standby, but eventually they were talked out of this.
No fun.
R
He's a Brit who lives in America with his children, and he's recently got dual citizenship. Although he applied for a US passport as soon as he could, his local office is on a go-slow and is four months behind on processing applications. He wanted to come to London for Christmas, and flew in on his UK passport with the rest of the family.
On trying to leave after Christmas, though, US Air refused to let him on the plane. Although he'd checked with both the US Passport office and the airline before leaving the US, and both had told him that his UK passport would be fine, the airline at Gatwick disagreed. Two and a half hours of discussion didn't move them on this point, and he had to return to London together with his very confused and miserable children to camp out on a friend's floor until he could get an emergency US passport from the London embassy.
That took four days. The embassy says that it gets a couple of cases like this a day (it didn't help that they could't find his original application on the computer because it had been misfiled under Ukraine instead of Uk - that also happens a lot) and asked him to complain to the US Passport office when he got back. The embassy thinks that bad advice is being dispensed by that organisation, but their pleas have been ignored. (From what I know of US bureaucracy, I find this very easy to believe.)
Apparently, one of the problems is that his UK passport referred to his green card which had of course been surrendered when he got citizenship.
US Air weren't much help either - they initially refused to rebook him and his children and said they'd have to go standby, but eventually they were talked out of this.
No fun.
R
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
If he already had a Green Card what possible reason is there for taking US CItizenship? I can see only downside: being taxed on your global income wherever you live for the rest of your life, all these hassles with passports, being hated by half of the world... What's the point?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
Christep, there are two reasons I can think of.
1) You no longer have to maintain 'the intention to permanently reside in the US'. i.e you can go back to the UK for quite some time, with the option of going back to the US later.
2) You can get a green card for any close relatives a lot easier.
That's about it.
The tax situation with the IRS is a nightmare. They are incredibly aggressive to the point of being criminal, I'm thinking of canning my US citizenship for that reason. Even getting through immigration quicker as you don't get fingerprinted isn't happening now as they fingerprint green card holders. I now enter through the visitors line with the missis as it's quicker.
Always, always, always enter and leave the US on your US passport. This guy was badly advised by the US passport office, if he didn't have his US passport in his hand he shouldn't have left the States.
1) You no longer have to maintain 'the intention to permanently reside in the US'. i.e you can go back to the UK for quite some time, with the option of going back to the US later.
2) You can get a green card for any close relatives a lot easier.
That's about it.
The tax situation with the IRS is a nightmare. They are incredibly aggressive to the point of being criminal, I'm thinking of canning my US citizenship for that reason. Even getting through immigration quicker as you don't get fingerprinted isn't happening now as they fingerprint green card holders. I now enter through the visitors line with the missis as it's quicker.
Always, always, always enter and leave the US on your US passport. This guy was badly advised by the US passport office, if he didn't have his US passport in his hand he shouldn't have left the States.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
Personally, I've always found dual nationality perplexing!!!
The granting of a British Passport used to mean that you automatically were assumed to be loyal to the Crown first and foremost and would put Her Britannic Majesty before all others!
Now, doesn't the USA insist on swearing an oath of allegiance putting the United States at the forefront of your allegiance priorities before allowing you US citizenship???
So - in the unlikely event of a US / UK disagreement (another Boston Tea Party perhaps?) - which master do you serve???
As a former Queen's Soldier still under oath, my loyalties lie firmly with Her Majesty - whether she is right or wrong is not for me to judge - and that bond of trust (even though she hasn't a clue who I am, despite my having been reviewed by her on several occasions) would prevent me from ever applying for citizenship elsewhere!
Perhaps loyalty is not so common nowadays?
Now, as slim-slag says, if you have a US Passport - you must use it to enter/leave the USA. Perhaps it's for this very reason of allegiance???
The granting of a British Passport used to mean that you automatically were assumed to be loyal to the Crown first and foremost and would put Her Britannic Majesty before all others!
Now, doesn't the USA insist on swearing an oath of allegiance putting the United States at the forefront of your allegiance priorities before allowing you US citizenship???
So - in the unlikely event of a US / UK disagreement (another Boston Tea Party perhaps?) - which master do you serve???
As a former Queen's Soldier still under oath, my loyalties lie firmly with Her Majesty - whether she is right or wrong is not for me to judge - and that bond of trust (even though she hasn't a clue who I am, despite my having been reviewed by her on several occasions) would prevent me from ever applying for citizenship elsewhere!
Perhaps loyalty is not so common nowadays?
Now, as slim-slag says, if you have a US Passport - you must use it to enter/leave the USA. Perhaps it's for this very reason of allegiance???
Last edited by bealine; 7th Jan 2006 at 11:30.
Usual disclaimers apply!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: EGGW
Posts: 843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
Just out of interest, what happens to the fingerprints taken when you enter the USA are they kept forever on some massive database, or destroyed after a set time?
Because it begs another question the 'police state' that's our own HMG who likes to keep tabs on every citizen, could quite easily ask for the details and fingerprints of every UK citizen who enters the states, so that they can be stored for future use, and that's without the outcry that would ensue if they went public!
Personally it didn't bother me as I'm careful to use gloves for all the robberies
Because it begs another question the 'police state' that's our own HMG who likes to keep tabs on every citizen, could quite easily ask for the details and fingerprints of every UK citizen who enters the states, so that they can be stored for future use, and that's without the outcry that would ensue if they went public!
Personally it didn't bother me as I'm careful to use gloves for all the robberies
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South England
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
Well...he's not travelling on the Visa Waiver programme as breaks most of the rules on there.... he's not entering on a visa because he doesn't have one.... he's not allowed to stay because he has neither a green card nor a passport.....yes i can see why he was denied.
He should have gotten a letter from some big wig in the Immigration department in the States about being between green card and passport to say he's allowed to enter and remain indefinately.
He should have gotten a letter from some big wig in the Immigration department in the States about being between green card and passport to say he's allowed to enter and remain indefinately.
None but a blockhead
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London, UK
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
There are many things he could have done, had he known - but then, how many of us would carry on investigating after phone calls to the Passport Office and the airline concerned had come up with the same apparently reasonable advice?
That's really the reason for this thread - you never know who's in the same situation. Except there are two a day, apparently.
As for why dual citizenship - for some people, the ability to be able to move as they wish between the US and the UK is a huge advantage in their work. However, the two people I know who've gone down that path have done so for other and more personal reasons: human life is frequently far more complicated than the bureaucrats (or those with more straightforward affairs) imagine!
R
That's really the reason for this thread - you never know who's in the same situation. Except there are two a day, apparently.
As for why dual citizenship - for some people, the ability to be able to move as they wish between the US and the UK is a huge advantage in their work. However, the two people I know who've gone down that path have done so for other and more personal reasons: human life is frequently far more complicated than the bureaucrats (or those with more straightforward affairs) imagine!
R
'nough said
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Raynes Park
Age: 58
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
I used to have a British passport, Belgian identity card and an Italian diplomatic lasciapassare (literally 'let through'); the first because of my I wanted to avoid doing military service in Italy and Belgium - the latter two because of my Dad's nationality and employment status in Italy.
For fun I used to hand all them over to the Italian border police whenever I was going home - just to see the perplexed reaction. That was before the days of terrorism and marigold gloves for custom officers
Just thought I'd mention it in passing...but it's an interesting story that told above - I guess that's how some people end up living in airports....
For fun I used to hand all them over to the Italian border police whenever I was going home - just to see the perplexed reaction. That was before the days of terrorism and marigold gloves for custom officers
Just thought I'd mention it in passing...but it's an interesting story that told above - I guess that's how some people end up living in airports....
Fly to Canada or Mexico First
Yep, US citizens returning from overseas are required to present a US passport, but coming from Canada or Mexico by air, a birth certificate and government photo id does the job for the remainder of this year.
After that there's another year before passports will be required at ground crossings.
At which time the cross-border tourism and shopping will come to a crashing halt in an election year unless an alternative to passports is in place by then.
Don't see many border states voting Republican if it hits the fan as currently designed
After that there's another year before passports will be required at ground crossings.
At which time the cross-border tourism and shopping will come to a crashing halt in an election year unless an alternative to passports is in place by then.
Don't see many border states voting Republican if it hits the fan as currently designed
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
Yikes RatherBeFlying, I hadn't picked up on that piece of news! Less than half (some estimates say 25%) of US citizens have a passport. I remember being surprised when one of my colleagues (40s, senior IT manager at the US HQ of a global 500 company) told me he couldn't visit me in Europe because he didn't have a passport ...
Nexialist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
Yep, there is a lot of rubbish talked about the fact that only 10?% of US citizens hold a passport, but when you consider that most Europeans who have a passport only use it to go to Spain/France/Italy once a year its hardly surprising. The equivalent for a Us Citizen is to go to Florida (nothing needed) Canada (driving license) or Mexico (same) it's not exactly a shock. How many Brits would have a passport if all you needed to go to France was your driving license?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: US
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
Given the distances involved, it's no big surprise that most adults in the US do not have a passport. They could certainly get one, but don't need it for their normal vacations to Florida, Maine, Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Alaska, US Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Canada, Mexico, etc.
Paris to Berlin is 650 miles. That's about the same distance from my home in Boston to my inlaw's in Cleveland. A trip to visit my mother in FL would be 1300 miles. A visit to friends in San Jose, CA would be about 3100 miles.
Paris to Berlin is 650 miles. That's about the same distance from my home in Boston to my inlaw's in Cleveland. A trip to visit my mother in FL would be 1300 miles. A visit to friends in San Jose, CA would be about 3100 miles.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
I agree that US citizens have less need of a passport - they have mountains, oceans, deserts etc. etc. without need to go outside their borders. However, this can result in a lack of exposure to differing cultures - everywhere they've ever been there's the same hotels, convenience stores, TV progs (OK, I know the rest of the world is getting this way too!). There's infinitely more cultural diversity between Britain and France than there is between Texas and Maine.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
Posts: 978
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
However, this can result in a lack of exposure to differing cultures
Combine Operations
Join Date: May 2005
Location: U.K.
Posts: 687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
Originally Posted by Pax Vobiscum
There's infinitely more cultural diversity between Britain and France than there is between Texas and Maine.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: BRS
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
The misunderstanding your friend had is clear from the title of this thread - in the eyes of the US, there's no such thing as dual nationality. If you have an American passport, you renounce any other citizenship. And if you fly on an international flight as a US citizen, you are required to have a US passport (some NA countries excepted). A British (or any other) passport is not recognised by the US authorities if you are a US citizen.
The problem is that the opposite isn't true - the UK and some other Eu. countries have no problem with dual nationality so it's perfectly OK to have an Eu. and US passport. Just be aware that the US, and US airlines, don't see it that way.
The problem is that the opposite isn't true - the UK and some other Eu. countries have no problem with dual nationality so it's perfectly OK to have an Eu. and US passport. Just be aware that the US, and US airlines, don't see it that way.
Está servira para distraerle.
Re: US/UK dual citizenship - passport misery
I think that your friend should actually have surrendered his British passport to the nearest British Embassy/Consulate, once he had his US citizenship and then renounced his UK citizenship. I have no idea if such a procedure actually exists but I am sure he should have gone through the motions. As far as I know, an adult cannot have dual US citizenship.
I am sure that he is aware that he must now always file a US income tax return, no matter where in the world he is living nor for how long in the future he may do so. Failure to comply with this might result in the US IRS coming against him for tax evasion. As long as he is a US citizen he will have a responsibility to the aforementioned organization. It does not, unlike the UK Revenue, make deals. Furthermore, even were he to allow his US passport to lapse in the future and continue to travel (illegally in the eyes of Uncle Sam?) on a British passport, the US/IRS will still consider him a US citizen for the purposes of taxation and the requirement to adhere to US tax law! Do be warned.
I am sure that he is aware that he must now always file a US income tax return, no matter where in the world he is living nor for how long in the future he may do so. Failure to comply with this might result in the US IRS coming against him for tax evasion. As long as he is a US citizen he will have a responsibility to the aforementioned organization. It does not, unlike the UK Revenue, make deals. Furthermore, even were he to allow his US passport to lapse in the future and continue to travel (illegally in the eyes of Uncle Sam?) on a British passport, the US/IRS will still consider him a US citizen for the purposes of taxation and the requirement to adhere to US tax law! Do be warned.