When are Ryanair going to grow up and stop lying?????

[Wing Commander Fowler]

First, I'm told that the airlines like BA have equipment like Cat 3 autoland that airlines like RYR find too expensive to fit and maintain and to keep their crews current on

Utter Horlicks! Consider yourself duly corrected in great haste! Ryanair have now the most modern fleet in Europe and all aircraft are usually capable of Cat3 autoland given the appropriate facility at the airport. I say "usually" as occasionally a fault may exist with an aircraft which would render it Cat1 capable only but this not a common occurence. There have been times when I have sat on the ground smug in the knowledge that a speedy was sitting in the hold awaiting the good lord to clear up his mess for him!

[Final 3 Greens]

Wingco

CAT III requires CAT III ground equipment. How many of your destinations down route have this compared to the destinations of the full service boys?

So you're okay at the STN end, but surely you must be more constrained than some others at the far end, simply because of the lower standards of ground equipment at some destinations?

Having said that, although I'm not a big fan of the type of travel that Ryanair offers, I do think that your company is pretty straightforward in setting clear terms and conditions and people have no excuse for being unaware of the consequences of bad wx.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Quite so F3G and I do believe I covered this point in my statement. Fair point regarding the desinations of course, I should guess that less than 8% of our destinations are capable of Cat3.......... I just have to fend off anyone who criticises us for innapropriate reasons and uses statements like "Ryanair finds too expensive to fit". We're FAR from perfect and there are aspects of this company which really disappoint me but they are what they are!

[slim_slag]

Globaliser,

There'll be a proportion of RYR pax who book because they think it must be cheaper than with others; after all, everyone says so therefore it must be true. But it's not always the case.

Yes, it's not always the case that what you read is true, something you demonstrate quite nicely yourself . Another poster has pointed out you are mistaken with your Cat 3 "autoland" claim. It's also a good idea to look at statistics when making cancellation claims, as they don't have the same prejudices as these anonymous posters you find on these sites.

So, latest AEA figures for Jul-Sept 2005 have 25 airlines reporting short/medium haul completion figures. The airline you assume to be better actually comes equal bottom on the list. Yes, it's got the worst completion figures out there. Ryanair doesn't report to AEA and one always has to be suspect but the figures they give are better than the airline you cite, whether they are statistically relevant is for others to work out.

Not that it would bother me, both airlines do an extremely good job of getting you to your destination, and cancellation rates would not affect my decision process when deciding who to give my money to. Total cost from door to door, and total travel time from door to door are the only things I care about on European short/medium haul

As for policies in the event of a cancellation, anecdotal reports on an anonymous web site are less important than published terms and conditions. Where in the BA t&C does it say (as you claim) they will do much more to get you out, or home, often re-routing on another carrier to do so even if it means reaccommodating in someone else's business class. It doesn't. They will send you on one of their later flights if they have a seat avaliable in the same class of service, or give you your money back. Surely you are not expecting me to rely on goodwill from an airline, you really are pulling my leg now.

[Globaliser]

slim_slag: Another poster has pointed out you are mistaken with your Cat 3 "autoland" claim.

I did my utmost to point out that this is what I'd heard, not to claim that I knew it to be true, and to invite correction if anyone knew better. Does the concept of fair reading mean anything to you?

It's also a good idea to look at statistics when making cancellation claims, as they don't have the same prejudices as these anonymous posters you find on these sites.

Why should a whole lot of anonymous posters on a website, run by a company whose airline quality rankings are widely reported every year, be unfairly prejudiced against RYR alone, but make a fair set of balanced reports in respect of every other airline? Just why would the public do that? If the people who post to that site about their bad experiences are simply the vocal minority who have been messed about, you'd expect to see the same pattern repeated in all the airline forums. But you don't - it looks like the RYR pages are different. So you have to ask why.

Not that it would bother me, both airlines do an extremely good job of getting you to your destination, and cancellation rates would not affect my decision process when deciding who to give my money to. ... Where in the BA t&C does it say (as you claim) they will do much more to get you out, or home, often re-routing on another carrier to do so even if it means reaccommodating in someone else's business class. It doesn't. They will send you on one of their later flights if they have a seat avaliable in the same class of service, or give you your money back. Surely you are not expecting me to rely on goodwill from an airline, you really are pulling my leg now.

To avoid reliability issues, I will just give you the one example I have from own personal experience on "legacy" carriers. SJO-MIA-LHR ops AA, in cheapo cheapo economy: Aircraft late departing MIA, so the return sector SJO-MIA was very delayed. I would have missed my MIA-LHR connection, with an inevitable overnight plus 24 hour delay. Without even requesting it, the AA station re-routed me on DL SJO-ATL-LGW in business class as they could not get an economy seat, and I was home barely a couple of hours later than I should have been. The only extra cost to me was the trip to LHR to retrieve my car and an extra day's parking, about which I was not going to quibble in the circumstances.

Cancellation rates are low on all carriers - and I have repeatedly said that this applies to RYR as well. It's what they do when things go pear-shaped that makes the difference. If you don't have experience of being looked after by a major airline when things have gone wrong, you obviously don't fly them very much.

BTW, it goes wider than cancelled flights. What would RYR do in the following situations, which have all occurred to me when flying on cheap discount economy tickets?

• Forget passport, go home to get it, get back to airport 10 minutes after last flight of the day leaves. LH response: free rebook onto first flight the next day.
• Arrive at EDI on a day of summer storms, all flights delayed by 60-90 minutes. The flight previous to ours is about to start boarding. Have you got space to accommodate us? BA response: No problem, here's two boarding passes.
• Trying to get a friend's excess luggage home from Australia for free. Arrive at check-in at HKG. Total baggage weight 11 kg over my 23 kg allowance. Can I please ask a favour, seeing as I usually fly to HKG with cabin baggage only? BA response: No problem, and here are some priority baggage tags to make sure they get onto the belt faster when you reach LHR.

RYR don't promise any of this, and make a point of not giving anything away for free. So I don't expect it, and they're within their rights to adopt that attitude and to stick to it.

But to suggest that major airlines' service levels are the same as RYR's is just fantasy. The T&C may not be much different (though they are not the same as RYR's) but the major airlines do go above and beyond - and they do it as a matter of routine. The major airline horror stories usually only happen when there is massive system-wide disruption.

[slim_slag]

OK Globaliser, if you are going to play the "You don't travel enough to know what you are talking about" card I shall withdraw from our discussion. (I shall have to cut up the card in my wallet that is only given to the top 0.25% of fliers on my preferred worldwide carrier )

Isn't it interesting that in a thread that started off by saying Ryanair lies, all the disinformation attacking Ryanair has been shown to be wrong

[Globaliser]

slim_slag: Isn't it interesting that in a thread that started off by saying Ryanair lies, all the disinformation attacking Ryanair has been shown to be wrong

No, the lack of care given during disruptions is not wrong.

You still proffer no explanation for the different balance of RYR customer reactions evidenced on the Skytrax website, which invites comment and criticism on all airlines equally and - whatever you might say about PPRuNe - has no inbuilt anti-RYR bias. I can think of only two potential explanations: Either the anti-RYR brigade files lots of false reports there too, or there is something about RYR customer care that's lacking.

When did your preferred airline last strand you downroute overnight when there was an available alternative carrier on which you could be rerouted?

And has RYR ever done anything for you along the lines of what AA, LH and BA have done for me?

[EI-CFC]

but the major airlines do go above and beyond - and they do it as a matter of routine.

Of course, the above and beyond is factored into the ticket prices also..

[Globaliser]

EI-CFC: Of course, the above and beyond is factored into the ticket prices also.

For sure, but the lowest fare hunter needs to be aware that the RYR/EZY type price is frequently not the cheapest. Over the last year, I've been seeing this regularly as I've been pricing LON-BER for possible trips.

BA, RYR and EZY are on this route. On almost every occasion, EZY and RYR have been fractionally more expensive than BA economy. BA offers a wider choice of flight times so they're almost always better on that score. And in addition, TXL is a better airport than SXF for where I'm going in Berlin.

On one trip that I flew, I did voluntarily pay an extra £32 to go in BA business class, which was all the extra that was needed on those flights.

So for me, the complete package with a legacy carrier is usually better than with a low-fare airline. slim_slag disagrees, which is his prerogative. But the facts are out there to allow everyone to make their own choice.

[EI-CFC]

For sure, but the lowest fare hunter needs to be aware that the RYR/EZY type price is frequently not the cheapest.

Perhaps not on an individual basis, but I would hazard a guess that when taken on an average basis they will be cheaper. I'd imagine the average cost paid per head on Ryanair or easyJet planes will be lower than that of the pax on BA or any other legacy carrier.

[slim_slag]

EI-CFC,

It's very hard to compare Ryanair's average ticket price with the legacy carriers as the older carriers hide behind some 'revenue passenger km' metric.

For Ryanair its reasonable simple to estimate the average ticket price. Look at their most recent financial statement (big pdf) and divide (scheduled revenue) by (number of passengers carried). For the six months ending Sept 2005, total passengers carried is 18m. Look down for scheduled revenue and this comes to EUR816m. So average ticket price is EUR45 or £31.

£31 will be one way, so do you think a company like BA has an average one way ticket price less than £31? Remember that BA has an £8 one way fuel surcharge, so the cost you should compare is £23.

It all depends on whether you think BA's average European ticket price is less than £23, or even £31. I have looked on their website several months out and cannot find a single ticket that is. I have found plenty that are significantly more, and we are talking average here.

The median price is probably more useful, but I cannot work that out.

Better to look at the actual numbers, making things up seems to be a habit on these websites

Edit!

Found one. For March flights BA offer one way LGW-DUB for £15 + £8 surcharge = £23. Not bad at all, shame about the surcharge.

Ryanair have same sector for £3.99 (half the price of what BA charges for it's fuel surcharge).

[Globaliser]

EI-CFC: Perhaps not on an individual basis, but I would hazard a guess that when taken on an average basis they will be cheaper. I'd imagine the average cost paid per head on Ryanair or easyJet planes will be lower than that of the pax on BA or any other legacy carrier.

Yes, that must be right. But each individual pax must decide for themselves whether the price they're being individually offered for one particular package is better value - comparing price to service levels - than the price being offered for the alternative package. It would be a mistake to think that because the RYR price will on average be lower than the BA price, the RYR flights that you need will therefore be (a) cheaper and/or (b) better value than the corresponding BA flights.

So looking at the fares that slim_slag has found, you could do BA for £30 + taxes etc. = £74.40, or RYR at broadly comparable times for £11.98 + taxes etc. = £44.18. Would you pay £30 extra to fly BA? That's a decision for each individual person. I know what my answer would be - I have a view about which is better value.

[DrKev]

For me flying Paris-DUB, I often find that Aer Lingus is cheaper than RYR. Even if it's not, I'd rather pay a little extra for the convenience of flying from CDG rather than travelling to Normandy to BVA. How do RYR still get away with calling it BVA Paris? It's not even in Ile de France, never mind Paris!

I have also noticed from time to time that RYR get 'into trouble' with the Irish Avertising standards people. Fair enough, so do Aer Lingus, usually on the inclusion (or lack of) taxes and charges where internet/email advertising is concerned.

But RYR do, from time to time, claim to have 'sold' 1m free seats in a three month period. Carrying 18m passengers each year, it seems that with the low prices of the other seats, and load factors around the 80% mark (if memory serves me correctly) it would be economically ridiculous to genuinely sell 1 million free seats in three months. Can that possibly be true?

[10secondsurvey]

I have actually met people who harp on about how cheap ryanair is and how good it is, and how the 'legacy' carriers don't offer anything more, but then I find out they have never flown with one of these other carriers, so would never know - unless they are just regurgitating the hype from Ryanair (surely not!).

As globaliser rightly points out, whilst the 'official' terms of travel may be similar with different airlines, he is quite correct in his assertion of the different ways in which these obligations are interpreted and delivered by airlines. It is also correct that very often people like BA or LH are cheaper than easyjet or ryanair. It is the value proposition that is key, would a BA flight costing say 10 quid more than Ryanair be a better value proposition? Probably. The other disadvantage with the likes of Ryanair and easyjet, is they don't offer through ticketing - which limits their usefulness.

As regards Autolanding technology, it really is not much use having aircraft with such technology, when the airports flown to do not have cat3 (of any type) also.

I understand the notion of Ryanair being cheap and cheerful, but the service levels are just not as good as other airlines.

As regards the earlier point about the 'long history' of ryanair, I really think they did not grow much until Easyjet had considerable success. They have existed longer, but really it was Stelios in this country who 'showed the way'. For example, just a few years ago, the website www.ryanair.com did not even exist, it used to be www.ryanair.ie, and this was the case even after easyjet had been running for many years. It was only later on that Ryanair picked up on the e-ticketing/booking thing.

Please understand, I am not saying that is a bad thing, just that whilst Ryanair have been around longer, they were not the 'budget' pioneers they like to remember themselves as. Easyjet showed how to do it properly, and Ryanair copied.

[PAXboy]

Globaliser

BA, RYR and EZY are on this route. On almost every occasion, EZY and RYR have been fractionally more expensive than BA economy. BA offers a wider choice of flight times so they're almost always better on that score. And in addition, TXL is a better airport than SXF for where I'm going in Berlin.

That is for the basic but my understanding of the advantage for the LCC is change of booking. With almost all (not sure of %) the BA low flights are Round Trip and Non changeable.

With LCC carriers, you tend to pay a £10/15 fee and change to another flight as well as any differential between the basic ticket price. For some, particularly business, that will make the decision. Also, if you want to do an Open Jaws, then the legacy carriers are going to offer full price singles.

I agree that the LCCs are not exactly cheaper than BA (as you have to pay more!) but it might make the differance of using your £54 ticket to wherever and throwing it away.

Sorry to complicate the discussion but you know by now that that's what I tend to do.

Sorry to complicate the discussion but you know by now that that's what I tend to do.

[EI-CFC]

have existed longer, but really it was Stelios in this country who 'showed the way'. For example, just a few years ago, the website www.ryanair.com did not even exist, it used to be www.ryanair.ie, and this was the case even after easyjet had been running for many years. It was only later on that Ryanair picked up on the e-ticketing/booking thing.

easyJet started taking online bookings in 1999, Ryanair in 2000. I'm not sure what difference that makes, as both were still taking the majority of their bookings over the telephone at the time. It's only in later years that the swing to online bookings vs. call-centre bookings took place.

[slim_slag]

ryanair.com was registered on 12-Jul-1996. Easyjet.com was registered on 25-Mar-1997. So the assertion that ryanair was behind easyjet on the internet is false, as is the assertion that ryanair.com didn't exist 'even after easyjet had been running for many years'.

Actually I think BMI was the internet booking leader, not one of the flag carriers. Is this important? Total time door to door, and total cost door to door is what is important.

And please don't expect me to believe that what is in the small print doesn't matter. Do you think we are stupid? Maybe you do, we are after all called Self Loading Freight

Next 'regurgitated hype' unsubstantiated allegation please.........

(Agree with EI-CFC that calling Beauvais Paris is a bit of a stretch, but they were doing that before Ryanair came along. I remember being fooled into thinking it was Paris a long time ago by one of these 'decent' carriers, and they didn't have the same transport as they do now. Is London Heathrow in London? Is London Gatwick in London? Is London Luton in London? Is London Stansted in London?)

[Globaliser]

slim_slag: Do you think we are stupid?

No, not stupid - just disingenuous.