The unfriendly skies
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The unfriendly skies
Posted on http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/...20050911a1.htm
The unfriendly skies
As the vacation season fades into fall, travelers have wended their weary way home from far-flung destinations such as Hawaii, Queensland, Europe and beyond. The problem is, the farther-flung the destination, the wearier the returnees are likely to be -- and the angrier. Not because they didn't enjoy their August break at a nice, sunny beach or in some exotic foreign city, but because most of them had to endure discomfort and indignity getting there and back. It has been said before, but it bears repeating until there is some breakthrough on the subject: The current state of long-distance, economy-class travel is a disgrace to the airline industry.
Who besides the fortunate regulars in first or business class hasn't suffered? The litany of woes is numbingly familiar. Too few toilets. Scratchy blankets. Hard, narrow seats apparently designed to ensure that a passenger's head tips ever-so-slightly forward, thereby guaranteeing a crick. Armrests just wide enough for one normal-size arm, thereby guaranteeing that passengers will spend the flight bumping one another's elbows -- and getting increasingly irritated in the process.
But all that pales in comparison to the real killer: legroom, or the lack of it. Riding in coach, you wonder if the airlines have ever heard of the concept. Here, for their benefit, is the dictionary definition: room in which to stretch the legs while seated. The ultimate irony is the playing of videos in which smiling models demonstrate foot-and-leg exercises designed to prevent blood clots -- modest drills such as rotating the foot or raising and lowering the leg a few centimeters. As every economy-class passenger knows, it is impossible to do those things in airline seats as they are currently configured and under which "extra" carry-on luggage has obediently been "stowed."
As for other luxuries such as reading or getting up to go for a walk (also recommended by health experts), economy-class passengers know better than to try. Once the fellow in front reclines his seat, many over age 40 can no longer hold his book or newspaper far enough away to focus. And getting out of the window seat requires literally climbing on the armrests, stepping on one's seatmate's fingers as one teeters in midair. The seatmates of course cannot stand up to make room because they are jammed in so tightly themselves they cannot move, and in any case the aisle is full of trolleys. The ensuing discomfort and humiliation is especially hard on older passengers, who may be both less nimble and more in need of bathroom breaks than they used to be.
It is true that some airlines lately have been touting extra legroom -- or as they call it, "pitch" -- the distance from any point on one seat to the same point on a seat in front of or behind it -- in coach class. But they are talking about a couple of centimeters at most. The industry average for pitch in economy-class seating hovers around 80 cm. Business- and first-class pitch varies more, but business-class passengers get around 150 cm, while the toffs in first class loll about with 200. Yes, we know that they (or their companies) pay ridiculous prices for their spacious seats, and they don't arrive at their destinations any faster, either. But that is hardly the point.
The point is that asking people to sit for eight, 10 or even 12 hours in a space so small that even a short person's knees are touching the seatback in front of him is inhumane -- and that is what happens with 80-cm pitch. It is not even a remotely adequate space in which to travel, unless the airlines think they are transporting chickens rather than human beings.
None of these complaints is new. But none has been addressed by the airlines, either, so it really is up to long-suffering passengers to protest and resist. As the airlines well know, people are unlikely to refuse to fly -- although some will. Most of us have no choice if we want to travel anywhere. But people can refuse to cave into pressure from the airlines and cough up for business-class seats.
And they can protest: by e-mailing, writing letters or calling to register complaints, and by supporting those airlines that make any kind of effort to better the lot of people in their biggest sections, the backbone of customer patronage. Numerous Web sites keep track of such information.
We are well aware of the industry's standard response to such complaints: It is all a matter of costs. Global fuel prices are rising, and the industry as a whole is reeling. Flying full -- and ever fuller -- planes is the only way to stay alive.
The response to that is simple: Treating paying passengers like pieces of baggage is not and cannot be the only way. Do the right thing and figure out a better way.
The Japan Times: Sept. 11, 2005
The unfriendly skies
As the vacation season fades into fall, travelers have wended their weary way home from far-flung destinations such as Hawaii, Queensland, Europe and beyond. The problem is, the farther-flung the destination, the wearier the returnees are likely to be -- and the angrier. Not because they didn't enjoy their August break at a nice, sunny beach or in some exotic foreign city, but because most of them had to endure discomfort and indignity getting there and back. It has been said before, but it bears repeating until there is some breakthrough on the subject: The current state of long-distance, economy-class travel is a disgrace to the airline industry.
Who besides the fortunate regulars in first or business class hasn't suffered? The litany of woes is numbingly familiar. Too few toilets. Scratchy blankets. Hard, narrow seats apparently designed to ensure that a passenger's head tips ever-so-slightly forward, thereby guaranteeing a crick. Armrests just wide enough for one normal-size arm, thereby guaranteeing that passengers will spend the flight bumping one another's elbows -- and getting increasingly irritated in the process.
But all that pales in comparison to the real killer: legroom, or the lack of it. Riding in coach, you wonder if the airlines have ever heard of the concept. Here, for their benefit, is the dictionary definition: room in which to stretch the legs while seated. The ultimate irony is the playing of videos in which smiling models demonstrate foot-and-leg exercises designed to prevent blood clots -- modest drills such as rotating the foot or raising and lowering the leg a few centimeters. As every economy-class passenger knows, it is impossible to do those things in airline seats as they are currently configured and under which "extra" carry-on luggage has obediently been "stowed."
As for other luxuries such as reading or getting up to go for a walk (also recommended by health experts), economy-class passengers know better than to try. Once the fellow in front reclines his seat, many over age 40 can no longer hold his book or newspaper far enough away to focus. And getting out of the window seat requires literally climbing on the armrests, stepping on one's seatmate's fingers as one teeters in midair. The seatmates of course cannot stand up to make room because they are jammed in so tightly themselves they cannot move, and in any case the aisle is full of trolleys. The ensuing discomfort and humiliation is especially hard on older passengers, who may be both less nimble and more in need of bathroom breaks than they used to be.
It is true that some airlines lately have been touting extra legroom -- or as they call it, "pitch" -- the distance from any point on one seat to the same point on a seat in front of or behind it -- in coach class. But they are talking about a couple of centimeters at most. The industry average for pitch in economy-class seating hovers around 80 cm. Business- and first-class pitch varies more, but business-class passengers get around 150 cm, while the toffs in first class loll about with 200. Yes, we know that they (or their companies) pay ridiculous prices for their spacious seats, and they don't arrive at their destinations any faster, either. But that is hardly the point.
The point is that asking people to sit for eight, 10 or even 12 hours in a space so small that even a short person's knees are touching the seatback in front of him is inhumane -- and that is what happens with 80-cm pitch. It is not even a remotely adequate space in which to travel, unless the airlines think they are transporting chickens rather than human beings.
None of these complaints is new. But none has been addressed by the airlines, either, so it really is up to long-suffering passengers to protest and resist. As the airlines well know, people are unlikely to refuse to fly -- although some will. Most of us have no choice if we want to travel anywhere. But people can refuse to cave into pressure from the airlines and cough up for business-class seats.
And they can protest: by e-mailing, writing letters or calling to register complaints, and by supporting those airlines that make any kind of effort to better the lot of people in their biggest sections, the backbone of customer patronage. Numerous Web sites keep track of such information.
We are well aware of the industry's standard response to such complaints: It is all a matter of costs. Global fuel prices are rising, and the industry as a whole is reeling. Flying full -- and ever fuller -- planes is the only way to stay alive.
The response to that is simple: Treating paying passengers like pieces of baggage is not and cannot be the only way. Do the right thing and figure out a better way.
The Japan Times: Sept. 11, 2005
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Interesting article by a japanese paper!
Just two things I'd like to add: apparently people prefer long direct flights against shorter ones with intermediate stops.
And price is often a mayor factor when choosing between different airlines. Anyone who expects lots of luxury while paying a "monkey price" is just a bit naive.
Cheers, jojodel
Just two things I'd like to add: apparently people prefer long direct flights against shorter ones with intermediate stops.
And price is often a mayor factor when choosing between different airlines. Anyone who expects lots of luxury while paying a "monkey price" is just a bit naive.
Cheers, jojodel
The answer is worldwide legislation restricting the minimum seat pitch. Yes, the price of air travel will go up, but on a level playing field for all airlines. Competition will still dictate the price of an economy seat, but not at the cost of leg room.
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What do thses people expect when they are prepared to pay more for a mobile phone ring tone that they are for an air ticket!
Champange costs £50 a bottle sparkling wine costs £3 a bottle!
Basicly you get what you pay for!
Champange costs £50 a bottle sparkling wine costs £3 a bottle!
Basicly you get what you pay for!
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I'd prefer to travel via a cruise ship, however..time can be a problem so if you want cheap fares....you get cheap accomodations....you get what you pay for my friend....what to do????
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The whole point to this is that it is a noted Japanese newspaper where the article appears to have come from. This needs to be taken seriously because, if any of you care to look around, you'll see Japanese tourists travelling to lots more countries in the world than they ever used to.
And I can identify with everything in that article. Many airlines do, if fact, abdicate their responsibility for DVT (and maybe even air rage?) by showing idiotic videos of leg and foot exercises that are, quite simply, impossible to undertake in most cattle class accommodation. Indeed, last month, I had the dubious honour of flying from HKG to LHR, using a well known air carrier, using a popular 4-engined passenger aircraft, where the leg room was just about non-existent.
Yes, indeed, I understand the increasing costs that all airlines face these days. If fares have to go up, to account for a worldwide standard of minimum leg room, passengers would applaud - none more loudly than those who travel on long-haul flights. And I believe that a level playing field in this regard would force greater competition and, therefore, either an airfare increase will be minimal or in-flight services will improve, or a combination of the two.
Maybe this topic would be better received in the Passengers and SLF forum?
And I can identify with everything in that article. Many airlines do, if fact, abdicate their responsibility for DVT (and maybe even air rage?) by showing idiotic videos of leg and foot exercises that are, quite simply, impossible to undertake in most cattle class accommodation. Indeed, last month, I had the dubious honour of flying from HKG to LHR, using a well known air carrier, using a popular 4-engined passenger aircraft, where the leg room was just about non-existent.
Yes, indeed, I understand the increasing costs that all airlines face these days. If fares have to go up, to account for a worldwide standard of minimum leg room, passengers would applaud - none more loudly than those who travel on long-haul flights. And I believe that a level playing field in this regard would force greater competition and, therefore, either an airfare increase will be minimal or in-flight services will improve, or a combination of the two.
Maybe this topic would be better received in the Passengers and SLF forum?
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...economy and height!
I feel treated like baggage in economy long-haul.
It is really awful, and sometimes painful.
It should be made illegal on a health & safety basis (especially for the tall it is definitely unhealthy!!!).
I totally agree with BruPax!
It is really awful, and sometimes painful.
It should be made illegal on a health & safety basis (especially for the tall it is definitely unhealthy!!!).
I totally agree with BruPax!
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I remember not so long ago AA ran an ad campaign showing mechanics pelting rows of seats out the cabin door, and heralding an era of legroom and comfort for passengers.
They were underwhelmed by the response.
Fact is, cheap is where its at, and few if any Y class pax are willing to pay extra for legroom.
They were underwhelmed by the response.
Fact is, cheap is where its at, and few if any Y class pax are willing to pay extra for legroom.
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Well, we/they can't have everything! We/they get what we/they pay for.
Want extra legroom? Pay for premium economy or business (or better still, first) class.
Want comfort but don't want to pay extra for it? Staying in our lounge room would be perfectly comfortable.
When I really didn't feel like being cramped up, I coughed up for business class. Most times, I put up with economy class seats because I don't want to pay a fortune just to go from A to B. I can cope with temporary discomfort to save some $$$. If I find that far too uncomfortable, then perhaps, I shouldn't be flying. Harsh? Yes. Who said the world is a fair place, anyway?
And one could argue that increasing the seat pitch will result in higher price, thus making air travel unaffordable for many, whether a minimum seat pitch is legislated or not. Below a certain profit margin, a business becomes unworthwhile to operate, so there's a limit to how low the fares can go even if there is a level playing field for competition.
Want extra legroom? Pay for premium economy or business (or better still, first) class.
Want comfort but don't want to pay extra for it? Staying in our lounge room would be perfectly comfortable.
When I really didn't feel like being cramped up, I coughed up for business class. Most times, I put up with economy class seats because I don't want to pay a fortune just to go from A to B. I can cope with temporary discomfort to save some $$$. If I find that far too uncomfortable, then perhaps, I shouldn't be flying. Harsh? Yes. Who said the world is a fair place, anyway?
And one could argue that increasing the seat pitch will result in higher price, thus making air travel unaffordable for many, whether a minimum seat pitch is legislated or not. Below a certain profit margin, a business becomes unworthwhile to operate, so there's a limit to how low the fares can go even if there is a level playing field for competition.
Not funny wizofoz. Many cannot afford Business Class, but would pay a little more for some basic comforts. Of course, if airline A offers cheaper fares with less leg room than airline B, most punters will flock to airline A in order to waste, sorry spend, the money saved on fags and booze. That's why I advocate that legislation needs to dictate seat pitch on the grounds of health and safety.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
I'll bet YOU can't afford to PAY for a Business Class seat, Wizofoz - and moreso, especially if one is travelling with family intact.
For singles - no probs.
For wealthy, married, double income earners - no probs.
But simply put, the MAJORITY of us CANNOT afford Business/First Class.
Imho, until the MAJORITY of US STOP accepting being treated like "seat fill", and start actively SUING the airlines for our (perceived or otherwise...it will be up to THEM to prove "otherwise") travel-related/caused injuries, then nothing will change.
They (the airlines) rely on pax making a trip once (or maybe twice) a year, and remaining "ignorant".
For singles - no probs.
For wealthy, married, double income earners - no probs.
But simply put, the MAJORITY of us CANNOT afford Business/First Class.
Imho, until the MAJORITY of US STOP accepting being treated like "seat fill", and start actively SUING the airlines for our (perceived or otherwise...it will be up to THEM to prove "otherwise") travel-related/caused injuries, then nothing will change.
They (the airlines) rely on pax making a trip once (or maybe twice) a year, and remaining "ignorant".
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ZQA297/30 mentioned the AA ad when they increased their Y class seat pitch a year or so ago.
Somebody may know better, but did they not recently REDUCE their Y class seat pitch (though without any ads.....).
Somebody may know better, but did they not recently REDUCE their Y class seat pitch (though without any ads.....).
... and not to mention how SLF are treated in case of delay or flight cancellation, or being bumped off the flight because of overbooking. The seat pitch is directly related to the ticket fare ? I think not. The same plane will be flying with a full load of pax at price x on a sector where there is no competition and at x/2 to a destination where competition is fierce. And the seat pitch remains the same whether the plane is full or almost empty.
ATN
ATN
So BRU and KAP,
The answer is to legislate or sue the airlines into NOT supplying what the majority of travelers want (the cheapest possible fare) becauese it is our RIGHT to have cheap travel but with a high degree of comfort. If you can't afford the Business class and don't like the Economy product- DON'T GO!!
BTW BRU, do BA operate to where you are? They HAVE the "slightly more comfort" for a little more- World Traveller Plus- Do you avail yourself of this, or, don't tell me, take the cheapest fare and then bitch about the legroom!
I'm pretty sure you have to prove that the proponderence of evidence is on YOUR side, not the other way around Kap...
The answer is to legislate or sue the airlines into NOT supplying what the majority of travelers want (the cheapest possible fare) becauese it is our RIGHT to have cheap travel but with a high degree of comfort. If you can't afford the Business class and don't like the Economy product- DON'T GO!!
BTW BRU, do BA operate to where you are? They HAVE the "slightly more comfort" for a little more- World Traveller Plus- Do you avail yourself of this, or, don't tell me, take the cheapest fare and then bitch about the legroom!
perceived or otherwise...it will be up to THEM to prove "otherwise"
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And where do you think suing an airline for
"injury or illness" is going to get the travelling public as a whole Kaptain M ?
Its not rocket science here, airlines are in the transportation biz to make a buck and if they cannot then they will shut up shop.
If airlines were made to increase seat pitch then there will be less bums on seats equals less income and less profit for the shareholders.
Now if you owned shares in a business that was not making a fair return on your investment, what would you do?
Put the ticket price up? yep could do that but then the punters won't travel now cos the seats are too expensive and then they will go and fly with airline B because they can jam more people into their spam can.
The ONLY way to increase seat pitch and still make a profit is to build more efficient a/c and that its a long time process.
Cut costs I hear you say, well how are you going to do that in any meaningfull way?
Fuel is up, salaries are too low as it is so not much scope in those 2 areas.
The only way it is going to happen is to have a swag of 380 size (or bigger) a/c in the sky to reduce seat costs , but that is not going to be viable for short haul ops.
my 2 cents for what its worth.
"injury or illness" is going to get the travelling public as a whole Kaptain M ?
Its not rocket science here, airlines are in the transportation biz to make a buck and if they cannot then they will shut up shop.
If airlines were made to increase seat pitch then there will be less bums on seats equals less income and less profit for the shareholders.
Now if you owned shares in a business that was not making a fair return on your investment, what would you do?
Put the ticket price up? yep could do that but then the punters won't travel now cos the seats are too expensive and then they will go and fly with airline B because they can jam more people into their spam can.
The ONLY way to increase seat pitch and still make a profit is to build more efficient a/c and that its a long time process.
Cut costs I hear you say, well how are you going to do that in any meaningfull way?
Fuel is up, salaries are too low as it is so not much scope in those 2 areas.
The only way it is going to happen is to have a swag of 380 size (or bigger) a/c in the sky to reduce seat costs , but that is not going to be viable for short haul ops.
my 2 cents for what its worth.
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Price levels...
Indeed, I should say that passengers want cheap tickets and will put up with limited space for that.
Now, are the prices of premium seats actually reasonable?
Baseline economy is 31 to 34 inches, usually. Premium economy is 38 to 40 inches. So 12 to 29 % bigger. Width - sometimes premium economy is 8 abreast instead of 10 in Economy, sometimes 7 instead of 8, et cetera.
So, in total, a passenger in Premium Economy occupies 130 to 160 % real estate of an Economy passenger. But they do not weigh 130 to 160%, surely. Therefore their fuel needs are smaller.
Do Premium Economy passengers pay 120-160 % the standard Economy tickets? Or is it different?
Are the Economy passengers paying money for poor treatment so that the upper classes could have large amounts of space for themselves? Or are the wealthy people paying ridiculous sums of money for their tickets so the plebians could travel around at rock-bottom prices?
Who is subsidizing whom?
Now, are the prices of premium seats actually reasonable?
Baseline economy is 31 to 34 inches, usually. Premium economy is 38 to 40 inches. So 12 to 29 % bigger. Width - sometimes premium economy is 8 abreast instead of 10 in Economy, sometimes 7 instead of 8, et cetera.
So, in total, a passenger in Premium Economy occupies 130 to 160 % real estate of an Economy passenger. But they do not weigh 130 to 160%, surely. Therefore their fuel needs are smaller.
Do Premium Economy passengers pay 120-160 % the standard Economy tickets? Or is it different?
Are the Economy passengers paying money for poor treatment so that the upper classes could have large amounts of space for themselves? Or are the wealthy people paying ridiculous sums of money for their tickets so the plebians could travel around at rock-bottom prices?
Who is subsidizing whom?
Faheel,
Now the question is: once the sky is full of bigger planes like the A380 and the tickets costs go down accordingly, will the tickets prices paid by the travellers follow the same path or will the shareholder profits increase further more ?
ATN
Now the question is: once the sky is full of bigger planes like the A380 and the tickets costs go down accordingly, will the tickets prices paid by the travellers follow the same path or will the shareholder profits increase further more ?
ATN