Cancelled VS LHR-JNB ...

[A300Man-2005]

Why is Virgin Atlantic a "banana republic airline"? I am lost on that one.

There was an inflight emergency, and the aircraft and crew proceeded to do everything within the limits of safety and practicality. This is normal, airline every day stuff. Not even newsworthy.

Why is everyone having a go????????

[groundbum]

how about...

if economics were ignored, would the best solution for the passengers have been to try and find a charter plane from JNB to Tunis, taking the passengers with it, then picking up the Tunis people and returning to JNB? The crew stuck in JNB would have been rested and returned to LHR later that day with the JNB passengers? The charter may not take 100% of the passengers, but it could be assumed some people could travel on other carriers..

But I would imagine this would cost the airline real external money to a charter company, whereas what happened in this case doesn't cost any real money, just vouchers, goodwill, staff time and things.

[Rainboe]

One of the problems with these incidents is the profusion of daft ideas that surface. What would the passengers do for 24+ hours in Tunis waiting for a charter aeroplane the right size to be found and negotiated for? They are not exactly lying around waiting for charter like taxys! If they are, they are going to cost big time- someone has to pay for those aeroplanes and crews lying around vacantly waiting for incidents like this! Then add flight time, and your idea is kicked into touch. Then the drama of unloading and loading charter aeroplane and Virgin aeroplane at a place that for all we know doesn't have the right equipment, and possibly a nosy customs!

But carry on thinking it is all a money saving operation out to inconvenience the human race- it is a shame to spoil your beliefs!

[FarTooManyUsers]

Whilst most people realise that operations do go awry from time to time, what really irked the pax was that no solution was forthcoming from VS - whilst an instant replacement aircraft was unrealisteic, there was no hope of ever getting a replacement flight ... Alan's post on v-flyer confirms that VS have no spare/slack ... some passengers were told it might be a week before they got back to LHR (considering all the other post-holiday flights were already full) - surely that is unreasonable ?

The other big problem was the Sunday's pax were told that they were confirmed on the following evening's flight (despite it already being full) - presumably delayed pax are not normally given priority and they should not have been told they would ??

[Rainboe]

People are convinced there is instantly a full back up plan available immediately. They assume the staff handling a situation there and then know what is going on and what is going to happen. It takes main base many hours to go through options and try any recovery plans people come up with. The staff just don't know! People want information now! Aeroplanes can't be magiced up out of nowhere. Extra services can't always be laid on just like that- I don't know what the situation at LHR was- that flight had already left that night. The next nights would leave 24 hours later. Can an 'extra' flight suddenly be put on again next day to operate that flight again? Daytime slots aren't 2 a penny at LHR.

[MarkD]

This is the upshot of the LCC revolution - spare aircraft/crew are deemed "slack" and cut by the beancounters to save $$$. People thought cheap air travel was a free lunch but it's not, not at VS or anywhere else.

[Human Factor]

If VS allowed an unwell person on board, they have only themselves to blame.

Has it occurred to you that sometimes people are fit when they board and fall ill during the flight?

I don't work for VS, actually for their main competition. Suffice to say that describing VS as a "Banana Republic Airline" is a bit much. A friend of mine was flight crew on one of our aircraft a few months ago which had a similar incident, although I think they went into BCN. Anyway, by the time you get the paperwork sorted out, slots, refiling, refuelling, etc. out of the way, time passes. A two sector trip in the middle of the night is somewhat restrictive in terms of hours. The fastest turnround I have seen on an unscheduled diversion (me, to an ETOPS alternate with a medical emergency, in fact) was two and a half hours for a 777. Two and a half hours makes a big difference in the middle of a night.

Just explain to me exactly which airlines have standby aircraft crewed and ready to go at a moment's notice to anywhere in the world? Answers on the back of a postage stamp please.

Speaking for BA, because we have a large fleet, we have the capability to get a spare aircraft out if need be, although we have exactly the same crewing issues as everyone else.

[sammypilot]

Hang about Humon Factor. It is not so many months back that BA were cancelling flights left, right and centre through crewing problems, particulary cabin crew. I don't remember Virgin ever suffering such a problem, probably because they have an enlightened attitude to staff relations.

Given a choice, I would take the Banana Republic Airline, Virgin, against most other airlines in the world.

[Human Factor]

...although we have exactly the same crewing issues as everyone else.

ie. We can't get hold of them just like that. RTFQ.

[Sultan Ismail]

Joburg was not the place to be on Monday

And I didn't even know about the Virgin flight. I checked in at midday on Monday for the 1.40pm flight to Kuala Lumpur (KL) to find the departure had been rescheduled for 8.30pm which eventually became 10.20pm.

Malaysian offered the use of the 'Inn across the road until 6.00pm but I preferred the Baobab lounge. I became aware that another lounge lizard was sitting through the departures of other pax. He had come up from George to connect with SA 234 to LHR, but the connection went pear shaped and he was rebooked on SA 236 at 9.00pm.

To cut to the chase, 9.00pm became 10.00pm and just as I left it became 8.00am and would he like a night in the hotel.

The best part for me was a daylight flight over the Indian Ocean, over Sumatra and then into a fine KL at 34C, eat your heart out Blighty.

The cause of my flight delay is well documented in the Far East Forum.

[PAXboy]

My word, I seem to have struck a record of three people criticising me incorrectly in one day!

frangatang I think that you will find they have been going for over 20 years and in 2004 won awards that included Business Travel Awards: Best Long Haul Business Airline. No, I do not work for them and never have. I have simply been a satisfied customer for 18 years.

Rainboe "Paxboy, the previous post- what is your problem?" Eer, since I was supporting the airline, I'm not sure what your problem is?

Human Factor "Has it occurred to you that sometimes people are fit when they board and fall ill during the flight?" Curiously it did occur to me!! That is why I wrote "If VS allowed an unwell person on board, they have only themselves to blame." But then, if you did not read my post closely enough, you would not have seen that.

[Rainboe]

You are quite correct- I read it the other way. My apology, and I have edited.

[PAXboy]

Thanks Rainboe, at some stage we all do that. I am sometimes half way through composing a thundering reply when I realise that I've misread!! Cheers.

[SQawk77]

Just arrived at this thread and got the flavour of the situation.
Accepting the information currently available, I can't quite understand why they weren't able to continue to JNB. The original duty time would have been in the region of 13hrs or so and with the max. duty time plus discretion the available duty time would have been in the region of 17 - 18 hrs. I would have thought that Grinning Pullover Airways would have expected them to do at least that.
Going back to the comments of 'Sammypilot', the reason why BA have occasional crewing problems and VS don't is that in VS, they are expected to operate (cabin crew wise) three down and often do! And to think we all thought slavery had been abolished...!
That's Sir Richard's ' enlightened attitude to staff relations'...

[Hotel Mode]

Allowable Cabin Crew FDP for a 2 sector operation with a post 1800 check in is 12hrs15, I think VS check in 90 mins before so duty starts at 1930 uk time, giving a latest arrival time in JNB of 0845 local which is actually 30 mins before the STA, (the 2nd sector knocks 45 mins off duty) Under normal circs the duty could be extended because crew will have 3hrs in bunks (the min for extension) But this wouldn't be possible with the shorther TUN-JNB flight time. You can add 3 hrs discretion to that, but that still only permits an absolute limit of 2 1/2 delay to arrival in JNB before the flight is totally illegal.

So with say an hour back from the tunrround point and the hour out of tunis to get back where you started it was a complete non starter. Flight crew would probably be less limiting than cabin crew due longer breaks.

I work for another UK based airline and i'm off to JNB tonight, some LH operations are very tight on duty time, had it been a return flight we would probably have got as far as we could and had a crew pax down to meet us but that cant be done out of JNB due lack of crew or suitable diversions

[Captain Airclues]

Hotel Mode

Flight Crew would probably be less limiting than cabin crew due longer breaks

I'm not sure that this is correct. The flight Crew initial limit for a 2 sector night is one hour less (11hrs15). I believe that VS operate this sector with three pilots therefore on the direct flight they would only get three hours rest each. Probably less than that after a diversion.
I agree with your other points. Even with the maximum extension, continuing to JNB would have been Virgin on legality.

Airclues

[Leezyjet]

SQawk77,

Even if VS did operate 3 cabin crew down, they would still have 1 more than KLM on the 744.

They also get compensated for the fact that they have to do more "work" when crew down, unlike the ground staff who can be 10-20 staff down on check-in and have to actually do more work with no compensation for it.


Andrew.Smith,

Sorry didn't realise you meant Monday night.

[3Greens]

Yeah but they all got hotlines tickets as a nice reward for not taking another sickie over the bank holiday. You're not telling me that 10-20 people down isn't due largely to social sickness.

[skydriller]

How long does a diversion actually take? If the diversion is en-route, aircraft decends & lands, offload the sick pax and then takes off & Climbs back on route again... 2 1/2 Hrs was mentioned by Human Factor, is that the actual time on the ground or the total extra time of the trip. Surely if a Medical emergency, time is of great importance.

Dont want to bash Virgin, genuinely interested in the hassle involved in general as well as for this case if the same crew were to continue on the route.

Regards, SD..

[Rainboe]

You say you're an 'engineer'! I can't believe you made such a naive, unthinking posting. It would have had to refuel to continue. It may have had to fly back to Tunis- the fuel uplift may have been substantial....at an unsocial time with maybe no fueller present, and someone having to pay a lot of money for it. No staff available to meet the aeroplane and handle the sick passenger- Immigration having to get involved and allow the person in, Security taking an interest, Customs wondering over to see what's going on. Are you going to dump the unwell person in the terminal (if you can get in)? How about getting a taxi/ambulance- who is going to pay- who is going to sort out medical costs? The hospital is going to want paying, and know who and how. Maybe problems handling a Flight Plan in the middle of the night- all with little or absolutely no handling staff available- then engineering staff, someone to take the Tech Log sheet, someone to handle the new loadsheet, new fuel plan please.................

If the diversion is en-route, aircraft decends & lands, offload the sick pax and then takes off & Climbs back on route again...

....Ha Ha Ha!