A380 Economy seating
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: not a million miles from old BKK
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A380 Economy seating
The shouting and the tumult dies ... the A380 is officially unveiled.
Now, forget the pretty pictures of bars and gyms and cafeterias and duty free shops. The privileged few in First and Business may get a bit more room but it will be the 'meat and veg' of the industry's customers that will, as usual, suffer.
You can already find the seating plans for the aircraft on the net. It's the same as the 747, 3-4-3 at 32 inch pitch.
Unbelievable. All that extra space and the airlines will gleefully "pack 'em in like cattle" as always.
Personally I think that all aircraft should be 'one class'. First and Business people, if they must be different from the rest of us, can fly in smaller (one class/premium class) aircraft specially equipped for them.
The A380 in Economy class (Main deck) will be in 3-4-3 configuration - it has to be. Its a twin aisle aircraft and that's the only way they can utilise the space. The good thing is that with a 21'7" wide cabin, the seats can be wider and the aisles too, unless they go back to 3-5-3 but I don't think any airline executive could be quite as stupid as that.
If you just increase the seat pitch to at least 36" (40" would be better) and redesign the reclining mechanism of the seats so they don't take away any space from the person sitting in the seat behind, then you might end up with an acceptable economy seating arrangement for long haul flights.
Also, if you make all the seats on the sides (ABC and HJK) facing seats (like a train) there is then plenty of room for people to move about and stretch their legs and the people in seats A and K can get in and out easily, not to mention the cabin crew.
Do the drawing yourselves. I used a 19" wide by 18" deep seat at 36" pitch. A 36 foot section of cabin can hold 120 pax.
But they won't will they? Pack 'em in like sardines. They are only the poor slobs who make the company profits but who cares?
Got to look after First and Business Class first.
Now, forget the pretty pictures of bars and gyms and cafeterias and duty free shops. The privileged few in First and Business may get a bit more room but it will be the 'meat and veg' of the industry's customers that will, as usual, suffer.
You can already find the seating plans for the aircraft on the net. It's the same as the 747, 3-4-3 at 32 inch pitch.
Unbelievable. All that extra space and the airlines will gleefully "pack 'em in like cattle" as always.
Personally I think that all aircraft should be 'one class'. First and Business people, if they must be different from the rest of us, can fly in smaller (one class/premium class) aircraft specially equipped for them.
The A380 in Economy class (Main deck) will be in 3-4-3 configuration - it has to be. Its a twin aisle aircraft and that's the only way they can utilise the space. The good thing is that with a 21'7" wide cabin, the seats can be wider and the aisles too, unless they go back to 3-5-3 but I don't think any airline executive could be quite as stupid as that.
If you just increase the seat pitch to at least 36" (40" would be better) and redesign the reclining mechanism of the seats so they don't take away any space from the person sitting in the seat behind, then you might end up with an acceptable economy seating arrangement for long haul flights.
Also, if you make all the seats on the sides (ABC and HJK) facing seats (like a train) there is then plenty of room for people to move about and stretch their legs and the people in seats A and K can get in and out easily, not to mention the cabin crew.
Do the drawing yourselves. I used a 19" wide by 18" deep seat at 36" pitch. A 36 foot section of cabin can hold 120 pax.
But they won't will they? Pack 'em in like sardines. They are only the poor slobs who make the company profits but who cares?
Got to look after First and Business Class first.
Last edited by Xeque; 19th Jan 2005 at 15:51.
Junior trash
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This will just be an airbus sketch showing how to get most seats on at this stage, There is no doubt another one somehwere with about 150 seats at 9ft pitch with the bars and gyms that we all know wont happen.
I really dont understand why people expect airlines to be generous with seating configs. As far as i know very few airline execs have signed up to the tenets of marxist leninism. You get what you pay for. You wouldnt go to a market stall and pay 1/4 of the amount and expect the same quality as harrod food halls, why with airlines? And with long haul fares at an all time low airlines need as many bums on seats as possible. As for economy making the money, thats simply not true. A £200 economy fare to say JFK only covers the marginal cost of the weight/catering/handling/fuel etc of the pax plus a little extra. The business and First pay for the aircraft, crew, fuel. Why do you think airlines only advertise their business products on tv?
I really dont understand why people expect airlines to be generous with seating configs. As far as i know very few airline execs have signed up to the tenets of marxist leninism. You get what you pay for. You wouldnt go to a market stall and pay 1/4 of the amount and expect the same quality as harrod food halls, why with airlines? And with long haul fares at an all time low airlines need as many bums on seats as possible. As for economy making the money, thats simply not true. A £200 economy fare to say JFK only covers the marginal cost of the weight/catering/handling/fuel etc of the pax plus a little extra. The business and First pay for the aircraft, crew, fuel. Why do you think airlines only advertise their business products on tv?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: not a million miles from old BKK
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hotel Mode: Because no Marketing Executive in his or her right mind would advertise the reality of Economy class.
Let me get this straight. You are saying that the only reason for carrying economy class passengers is to pay for the platform that supports First and Business?
Let me get this straight. You are saying that the only reason for carrying economy class passengers is to pay for the platform that supports First and Business?
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Valley Where the Thames Runs Softly
Age: 77
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you do a quick calculation on seat pitches you can see that to increase pitch by a full ten inches would only put up the fare by about one-third on most airlines. In fact the premiums for more space are way disproportionate.
I am old enough to remember all the guff about the 747 bringing back the golden age of flying, proper beds, lounges and bars, and so on. Into service it went, with less comfort (at least in the middle) than on a 707.
I am old enough to remember all the guff about the 747 bringing back the golden age of flying, proper beds, lounges and bars, and so on. Into service it went, with less comfort (at least in the middle) than on a 707.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: not a million miles from old BKK
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are all sorts of alternative Pprune areas that relate to this. There's a lot of good stuff on Dunnunder and Godzone for example.
Perhaps the moderator could put it all together in one place please?
Perhaps the moderator could put it all together in one place please?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Let me get this straight. You are saying that the only reason for carrying economy class passengers is to pay for the platform that supports First and Business?
That is, I believe, the traditional basics of long-haul economics.
I would think that if it could work another way, then someone would be doing it.
Profits? I'm sure you've heard the old one about the only way to make a small fortune running an airline is to start off with a large one. Look at all the American long-haul carriers, most in free-fall, some in double-chapter-11.
The LOCOs claim to make profits, but I beleive that a certain Irish carrier has yet to pay a dividend, so the shareholders haven't seen any return, yet.
Handling Agents seem to cut each others throats paring returns to the bone
Perhaps the oil companies make a profit out of selling fuel.
The Odd One
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Xeque: Let me get this straight. You are saying that the only reason for carrying economy class passengers is to pay for the platform that supports First and Business?
Current philosophy is that if you fill the Y cabin, you'll pay the overhead costs of operating the aircraft. The premium cabins then provide the profit.
Of course, there's a symbiosis. If you can fill lots of Y cabins, you can offer a higher frequency. If you can offer a higher frequency, your premium cabins will become more attractive to the pax who pay for them, who are largely pax for whom flexibility is important.
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oddone
Microsoft didn't pay a div until recently when it became tax efficient.
Gates and Allen aren't poor are they?
Ryanair don't pay a div for the same reason - capital growth in the share value.
I thought that the "old model" was J and F paid for the aircraft and Y was gravy.
Microsoft didn't pay a div until recently when it became tax efficient.
Gates and Allen aren't poor are they?
Ryanair don't pay a div for the same reason - capital growth in the share value.
I thought that the "old model" was J and F paid for the aircraft and Y was gravy.
Paxing All Over The World
but I don't think any airline executive could be quite as stupid as that.
People want to pay less money. Those in Y want to pay less so that they have more for their holiday. Those who are actually paying for C + F want to pay less for all the usual reasons. Carriers have everybody by the short ones UNTIL there are lots of carriers and seats on offer. So they drop prices to get more punters in and have to squash them in to make some money. Once prices are down, they can be forced back up by a few measures but not many. It can take two or three years to nudge prices up by 10% and only three months of a price war to lower them again.
After all, the A380 is not going to be cheap and the airports are not going to prepare the new docking facilities for free either. The reason for buying this machine is that the carriers believe that they will get new economies of scale, in the way that they did when the 747 and then 767 came on the scene.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: atlanta
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Methinks an important question is raised here. What pays for a flight? Is it the poor old sods in the back, all x00 of them, or the few in J class (often travelling on free upgrades or as staff freebies). Some idiot in airline accounting a few years ago came up with the premise that business class is where the yield comes from. Don't think so, just that your systems have dodgy assumptions. Remember we vote with our feet guys !! Pack 'em in at your peril. VS, Y class can't even get my knees relaxed. Give us a break, we ain't stupid. The smart operator will be an all Y config with sensible legroom.
Junior trash
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Totally depends on the airline, the company i work for makes its money mainly from the front, but our main competitor from the back, our highest config 744 is 14/38/30/269 but most of the fleet is 14/70/30/177 so nearly 40% premium. The other companies lowest config has more seats than our highest, so thats why their fares are sometimes lower because more Y seats to fill. Full fare econ is a money spinner but the discounted rates are nothing more than cost covering.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: not a million miles from old BKK
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At last!
Stagna8 said (I can't get my quote thingy to work):-
The smart operator will be an all Y config with sensible legroom.
Yes. Yes. Yes!!!
An A330, which I am told is one of the most efficient aircraft around these days, will seat 290 pax at 40" seat pitch and 2-4-2 configuration. Now that is not an uncomfortable situation.
I don't believe that 30 or so First and Business pax pay for the flight. That sounds like beancounter yukspeak.
290 people in reasonable comfort paying a FAIR fare (not discounted to the point of absurdity) should be able to generate enough revenue to make the flight viable.
And if the airlines started allowing all of us to book directly through the Internet instead of through Travel Agents, they could make even more.
Stagna8 said (I can't get my quote thingy to work):-
The smart operator will be an all Y config with sensible legroom.
Yes. Yes. Yes!!!
An A330, which I am told is one of the most efficient aircraft around these days, will seat 290 pax at 40" seat pitch and 2-4-2 configuration. Now that is not an uncomfortable situation.
I don't believe that 30 or so First and Business pax pay for the flight. That sounds like beancounter yukspeak.
290 people in reasonable comfort paying a FAIR fare (not discounted to the point of absurdity) should be able to generate enough revenue to make the flight viable.
And if the airlines started allowing all of us to book directly through the Internet instead of through Travel Agents, they could make even more.
Junior trash
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You wont find many people paying for it. If you want that pitch its available in premium economy. Which always fills up after economy. Average Jo wont pay for it, when its available, be a brave man who tried a whole plane like that (might work once a day on a JFK or another frequent route). Airlines work out the yeild per sq m of floor space, in these terms Business normally wins followed by premium the first then econ. Its very route dependant tho.
Paxing All Over The World
290 people in reasonable comfort paying a FAIR fare (not discounted to the point of absurdity) should be able to generate enough revenue to make the flight viable.
And if the airlines started allowing all of us to book directly through the Internet instead of through Travel Agents, they could make even more.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with PAXboy - I'm delighted to travel in F or C when someone else is paying, but otherwise it's the cheapest ticket at the back. Unless you really can't cope with a standard seat (if you're extra tall, extra wide 
), I can think of much better ways of spending a couple of hundred pounds than renting a big seat for a few hours. Perhaps the only other justification is "I've got so much money that I'll never be able to spend it all", but the folks I've met who are in that fortunate position tend to be even meaner than I am!
I was once on holiday with a tour group that included a nice guy in his 80s who was minted - home in Jersey, second house in Gstaad, etc. The courier suggested to him that he upgrade to Club on his flight back for an extra £1500 - he was outraged at the idea of wasting all that money, despite the fact that he could have spent the rest of his life flying in First without making a dent in the interest on his interest.
), I can think of much better ways of spending a couple of hundred pounds than renting a big seat for a few hours. Perhaps the only other justification is "I've got so much money that I'll never be able to spend it all", but the folks I've met who are in that fortunate position tend to be even meaner than I am!I was once on holiday with a tour group that included a nice guy in his 80s who was minted - home in Jersey, second house in Gstaad, etc. The courier suggested to him that he upgrade to Club on his flight back for an extra £1500 - he was outraged at the idea of wasting all that money, despite the fact that he could have spent the rest of his life flying in First without making a dent in the interest on his interest.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Hotel Mode: Airlines work out the yeild per sq m of floor space, in these terms Business normally wins followed by premium the first then econ. Its very route dependant tho.
