What would you have done?
bealine and others,
Thank you very much for the safety perspetive about changing seats. I did use that as a reason a year ago to a lady friend not to let her move next to me but I forgot in the mean time.
HOwever thinking about it now I have serious doubts about how much helpfull is a list assigining pax to seats when you have seats thrown away from the airframe. (maybe it is to "black" question" to ask but nevertheless I would like to have an answer from the PPRuNe.
I had the same problem last April when people came to my seat holding boarding pass with the same numbers as the ones I was holding. Shor flight on an RJ100 I was not at a particular hurry to reach my destination so I offered my seat and moved by the crew few rows back on the same side of the aircraft.
Now if it was a really long haul the upgrade idea would have been nice.. Otherwise if no seats were available I would have volonteer (sp) for catching the next flight.
Rwy in Sight
May I have now an answer to my question?
Thank you very much for the safety perspetive about changing seats. I did use that as a reason a year ago to a lady friend not to let her move next to me but I forgot in the mean time.
HOwever thinking about it now I have serious doubts about how much helpfull is a list assigining pax to seats when you have seats thrown away from the airframe. (maybe it is to "black" question" to ask but nevertheless I would like to have an answer from the PPRuNe.
I had the same problem last April when people came to my seat holding boarding pass with the same numbers as the ones I was holding. Shor flight on an RJ100 I was not at a particular hurry to reach my destination so I offered my seat and moved by the crew few rows back on the same side of the aircraft.
Now if it was a really long haul the upgrade idea would have been nice.. Otherwise if no seats were available I would have volonteer (sp) for catching the next flight.
Rwy in Sight
May I have now an answer to my question?
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This has become quite a fascinating thread - thanks to all who've contributed. I think the moral of the story is to kick up a well reasoned but but firm fuss if there's someone sitting in your assigned seat and get yourself sat up front in business.
I think that was my problem, that I was a bit too calm about it, especially when the late passenger got on board despite assurances from the CC that boarding had finished. Saying that I do recall muttering under my breath 'this isn't funny now' to no-one in particular as I dragged my hand luggage out of the bin. If I'd just wandered through the curtain into business and sat down, I don't think they'd have had any grounds to make me move!
I think that was my problem, that I was a bit too calm about it, especially when the late passenger got on board despite assurances from the CC that boarding had finished. Saying that I do recall muttering under my breath 'this isn't funny now' to no-one in particular as I dragged my hand luggage out of the bin. If I'd just wandered through the curtain into business and sat down, I don't think they'd have had any grounds to make me move!
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BRUPax - I am at a complete loss as to why you find my response "patronising?" Perhaps you would enlighten?
On the other hand, on BA metal, I am quite sure of my ground. Short-haul aircraft have rapid turnaround times (Those in the 737 fleet are allowed 35 mins) so broken seats can, and do, go unrepaired for days, until the aircraft is scheduled for routine maintenance. Before you argue the point further, this is a very frequent occurrence!
Now as far a Rwy in Sight is concerned, I am no Aircraft Accident Investigator. However, the professionals the CAA and the RAF employ to sift through wreckage have a trained eye which, I'm reliably informed, can usually identify seat rows and seat positions from a plethora of clues - even if said wreckage is almost entirely burnt out.
Those who remember Lockerbie will recall the swarms of police, army, CAA and RAF personnel scouring the hillsides. The amount of detail in the report is quite staggering.
http://www.corazon.com/103reportcontents.html
Now, whether other airlines are concerned about passenger positions on aircraft or not is their own affair. BA is a professional organisation and chooses to do so!
With the zealous use of Sky Marshals on board international flights, US carriers also tend to be concerned that pax do not switch seats without authority either!
Get Used To It!
On the other hand, on BA metal, I am quite sure of my ground. Short-haul aircraft have rapid turnaround times (Those in the 737 fleet are allowed 35 mins) so broken seats can, and do, go unrepaired for days, until the aircraft is scheduled for routine maintenance. Before you argue the point further, this is a very frequent occurrence!
Now as far a Rwy in Sight is concerned, I am no Aircraft Accident Investigator. However, the professionals the CAA and the RAF employ to sift through wreckage have a trained eye which, I'm reliably informed, can usually identify seat rows and seat positions from a plethora of clues - even if said wreckage is almost entirely burnt out.
Those who remember Lockerbie will recall the swarms of police, army, CAA and RAF personnel scouring the hillsides. The amount of detail in the report is quite staggering.
http://www.corazon.com/103reportcontents.html
Now, whether other airlines are concerned about passenger positions on aircraft or not is their own affair. BA is a professional organisation and chooses to do so!
With the zealous use of Sky Marshals on board international flights, US carriers also tend to be concerned that pax do not switch seats without authority either!
Get Used To It!
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The most common reason for finding someone sat in your seat is simply they misread the row. When it is pointed out they normally move. If they don't the cabin crew ought to be able to resolve the problem without too much fuss. It can occur that the same seat has been alocated to two people in error, and when that happens obviously one will need to be re-seated.
The fact that this may happen does not "entitle" the subject to an upgrade although that may on occaisions be the response. It most certainly doesn't allow the passenger to award themselves an upgrade any more than they could award themselves a bottle of champagne from the bar ! Your ticket is a contract for a particular product ( class of travel), it does not contract a particular seat and the airline is entitled to allocate any seat in that specific class. If the airline wishes to materially improve the contract by upgrading a passenger that would be deemed as acceptable. If an airline downgrades a passenger that would amount to a breach of contract and be subject to reimbursing or otherwise compensating the passenger for their loss. Even then the contract is likely to stipulate the maximum loss in such circumstances. Purchasing the ticket and /or travelling on it makes the passenger a party to the contract. Almost all contracts are written to protect the seller of a product and this is no exception.
The fact that this may happen does not "entitle" the subject to an upgrade although that may on occaisions be the response. It most certainly doesn't allow the passenger to award themselves an upgrade any more than they could award themselves a bottle of champagne from the bar ! Your ticket is a contract for a particular product ( class of travel), it does not contract a particular seat and the airline is entitled to allocate any seat in that specific class. If the airline wishes to materially improve the contract by upgrading a passenger that would be deemed as acceptable. If an airline downgrades a passenger that would amount to a breach of contract and be subject to reimbursing or otherwise compensating the passenger for their loss. Even then the contract is likely to stipulate the maximum loss in such circumstances. Purchasing the ticket and /or travelling on it makes the passenger a party to the contract. Almost all contracts are written to protect the seller of a product and this is no exception.
I don't want to get into a fight with you bealine. You are well respected by many, including me. However, that doesn't always make you completely right. For your information I am in the business and I fly BA (Citiexpress) regularly. I have never been told by the crew that I'm not sitting in my assigned seat. I grant you that in rare cases identification may be possible by seat location. However, in most cases it will be most unlikely. Perhaps I have no family who care if I'm blubber or not. And, lastly, you still failed to address the point I make about the computer's crappy seat allocation logic on lighly loaded flights. Oh, and believe me because I know, many positioning flight crew do not occupy allocated seats on light flights. They spread out - which is just what I do. 
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BRUpax, "being in the business" you would no doubt also be aware that loadsheets with particular regard to aircraft trim can often be more critical on lightly loaded flights. On a full flight the trim is easier to ascertain. On a less than full flight it is important to know where everyone is sat.
In reality if a few people are not where they should be it is not likely to be critical. Of course I am referring to medium size jets, this might not be the case with smaller commuter type aircraft when it might indeed be critical. The problem comes if others like yourself feel they can ignore the allocation and please themselves. If 12 people do the same that is one tonne of mass that is not where the loadsheet shows it as.
In reality if a few people are not where they should be it is not likely to be critical. Of course I am referring to medium size jets, this might not be the case with smaller commuter type aircraft when it might indeed be critical. The problem comes if others like yourself feel they can ignore the allocation and please themselves. If 12 people do the same that is one tonne of mass that is not where the loadsheet shows it as.
Absolutely correct Bealzebub, and I do take several factors into consideration. Of course, as you rightly point out, if a dozen or so pax were to move about it could have serious consequences. Therefore, to avoid the problem I refer once again to my point about the contributing aspect of computerised seat allocation logic.
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When BA started flying the A320 they managed to issue me with a boarding pass for a seat that was not fitted to the aircraft. The cabin crew virtualy accused me of forging my own boarding pass and marched me off the plane.
It turned out that the seat plan in the system was wrong and the gate staff re-assigned my seat to one that did exist.
It turned out that the seat plan in the system was wrong and the gate staff re-assigned my seat to one that did exist.
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I work as CC for BA and if there is space, I will always allow a passenger to move but only once we're airborne to avoid any issues with the aircraft trim. Of course, I always seek permission from the CSD or flight-deck beforehand, and not once have I been told not to allow a pax to do this.
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I did read your posts carefully BRUpax, and frankly am a little surprised that you" take various factors into account". I presume that one of them is to discuss your reloading arrangements with the Captain ?
Aircraft loading is not always a simple matter of where the passengers are sat, it frequently involves the combined interaction of how freight is loaded and sometimes how fuel is trimmed into the aircraft as a result. From this a stabilizer trim setting for takeoff is calculated. How the passengers are seated in a less than full aircraft is often dictated by the airlines policy which is programmed into the computers for check in purposes. For example it may be preferrable to load passengers in the rear most section of the aircraft before moving forward, and the instruction to check-in would reflect this.
It is not for passengers to decide their own rules as this might well cause problems and in the extreme case might even cause jeopardy to the aircraft. As has been mentioned, once the aircarft has established itself in flight the auto trim ought to make it feasable for the crew to re-assign passengers to other seats. Of course this should only be after consulting the flight crew.
Aircraft loading is not always a simple matter of where the passengers are sat, it frequently involves the combined interaction of how freight is loaded and sometimes how fuel is trimmed into the aircraft as a result. From this a stabilizer trim setting for takeoff is calculated. How the passengers are seated in a less than full aircraft is often dictated by the airlines policy which is programmed into the computers for check in purposes. For example it may be preferrable to load passengers in the rear most section of the aircraft before moving forward, and the instruction to check-in would reflect this.
It is not for passengers to decide their own rules as this might well cause problems and in the extreme case might even cause jeopardy to the aircraft. As has been mentioned, once the aircarft has established itself in flight the auto trim ought to make it feasable for the crew to re-assign passengers to other seats. Of course this should only be after consulting the flight crew.
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Of course another factor not taken into account is that, on a lightly loaded aeroplane, the computer seats pax for fuel efficiency (ie a slightly nose-up attitude). If the pax rearrange themselves willy-nilly, the aircraft might then (in an extreme case - some airlines run on very low budgets) have insufficient fuel reserves to cope with a diversion!
Although we're not casting doubt on passengers intelligence -(please don't confuse "intelligence" with "common-sense" as many people possess the first, but surprisingly few display signs of the latter!) - please give us the credit for knowing more about the business of aviation - it is, after all, our chosen career!
boyo25 - I agree. I have never known a refusal to re-seat a passenger, but, on BA "mainline" metal (dunno about BA Cityflyer or the franchises) it is always recorded somewhere!
Although we're not casting doubt on passengers intelligence -(please don't confuse "intelligence" with "common-sense" as many people possess the first, but surprisingly few display signs of the latter!) - please give us the credit for knowing more about the business of aviation - it is, after all, our chosen career!
boyo25 - I agree. I have never known a refusal to re-seat a passenger, but, on BA "mainline" metal (dunno about BA Cityflyer or the franchises) it is always recorded somewhere!
Guys guys guys, your comments are correct up to a point. However, much of what you say is dependent on the type and actual circumstances on the day too. May I say that if on an EMB145 or CRJ or indeed a small turboprop I don't do it. You have to convince me what difference it will make on a B737 or A319/320 on a short 1 hour hop. Why? Because if you fly on a "light" flight with Southwest (or Ryanair/Easy for that matter) it's free seating and pax spread themselves around. So how do they accurately finalise the loadsheet in these cases? I have been flying for 48 years by the way.
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The situation you describe with certain low cost carriers who apply a policy of free seating is taken into account with their loading proceedures. That is what happens when I have operated flights for them. The trim is calculated from the actual loads in each passenger compartment. If trim is a problem then passengers are moved.
These flights however tend to carry lower volumes of luggage and little or no freight so that may reduce the complication. That however does not allow you as a passenger to set your own loading arrangements in circumstances when you have been allocated a seat since of course you are not privvy to the specific loading arrangements a carrier may have applied on the day.
I appreciate you have been flying as a passenger for 48 years, but that doesn't mean the basic tenats don't apply to you. I appreciate that where one passenger is sat may have little practical impact on most flights, however the same "rational" applied to a group of passengers with similar lack of specific knowledge other than their own interpretation of the physics may well have a serious impact !
I appreciate you want me to say that since you are the only person on a given flight to "re-distribute" themself then hey go ahead do it. The truth is it is not something that can be permitted to occur from a safety standpoint and by doing it you are in the wrong. If you need convincing and this doesn't satisfy you then the arguement is pointless.
These flights however tend to carry lower volumes of luggage and little or no freight so that may reduce the complication. That however does not allow you as a passenger to set your own loading arrangements in circumstances when you have been allocated a seat since of course you are not privvy to the specific loading arrangements a carrier may have applied on the day.
I appreciate you have been flying as a passenger for 48 years, but that doesn't mean the basic tenats don't apply to you. I appreciate that where one passenger is sat may have little practical impact on most flights, however the same "rational" applied to a group of passengers with similar lack of specific knowledge other than their own interpretation of the physics may well have a serious impact !
I appreciate you want me to say that since you are the only person on a given flight to "re-distribute" themself then hey go ahead do it. The truth is it is not something that can be permitted to occur from a safety standpoint and by doing it you are in the wrong. If you need convincing and this doesn't satisfy you then the arguement is pointless.
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The locos do plan for trim - they tend to block out the required rows by loweirng the try tables and then chasing away anyone trying to lift them up and sit there.
Boyo - I once had the experience of a lightly loaded BA 76' on a hop to BRU, where the skipper came on the PA and apologised for cramming everyone together, due to trim considerations - "please don't reseat yourself forward of row XX after takeoff"
I don't fly heavy iron, but you really see the effect of weight and balance on light aircraft with 3 or 4 rows of seats and I am quite prepared to accept that big toys can be sensitive too :-)
Boyo - I once had the experience of a lightly loaded BA 76' on a hop to BRU, where the skipper came on the PA and apologised for cramming everyone together, due to trim considerations - "please don't reseat yourself forward of row XX after takeoff"
I don't fly heavy iron, but you really see the effect of weight and balance on light aircraft with 3 or 4 rows of seats and I am quite prepared to accept that big toys can be sensitive too :-)
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passengers seating in the wrong seat is almost a daily occurrence. However it never happened to me that a pax refused to move to his assigned seat (schedule and charter pax can have very different behaviour). Usually the "offender" realises the mistake and moves, or asks if he can keep the seat because it's near his/her travelling companion's. Often the "standing" pax accepts or spontaneously offers to relocate. When it doesn't happen we politely but firmly ask the other pax to take is original seat and look for an alternative (find 2 vacant seats to allow him/her to seat near spouse or the aisle/window seat he wanted). Those are very tricky situations because they have a lot to do with the concept of "territoriality" and it is very easy for a pax to feel "imposed" and refuse to do something just because it's been asked the "wrong" (not a value judgement, I mean "wrong" in that particular case, in order to obtain the result you were looking for). It is very important for us CC to present the problem in a way to defuse the situation and give the pax the impression he/she's not imposed and not make him/her lose face. Just the day before yesterday, I had a Business Class pax who boarded late (from a connecting flight) call me. He explained in an indignant tone that he wanted to put his trolley in the hatrack, but since they were all full the only place available was possible only by moving the duty free bag of another pax. He told me he had asked the owner (evil look at "the owner") but that he had refused. The guy in question was a big moustached Eastern Europe businessman who was looking at our exchange with a fierce expression. I smiled at him my sweetest smile, and told the indignant pax "Oh surely this gentleman misundederstood your intentions, and didn't understand you just asked him if you could move his bag. Let me ask him in English" Then to Mr Moustache:" Sir, would you mind if I moved your duty free bag just in the hatrack next to this? I can take care of it, you don't need to move. That would be very kind of you and would expedit our departure." More smile. He agreed with a moustached grin, and more grin when I offered another glass of champagne.
Going back to the seat issue, I believe a pax has the right to get his assigned seat if he wants it. In the situation where the other firmly refused to leave it, and no other satisfying solution could be found, I would inform the captain (refusing to comlpy with a request of the crew is stage 2 of indiscipline) and try to sort it out with the help of the ground staff. I don't think we would need to deplane or have the pax carried off the aircraft because I'm sure another solution would be found before, but in no case I would let down the pax who was originally assigned a seat, like it's happened to you.
passengers seating in the wrong seat is almost a daily occurrence. However it never happened to me that a pax refused to move to his assigned seat (schedule and charter pax can have very different behaviour). Usually the "offender" realises the mistake and moves, or asks if he can keep the seat because it's near his/her travelling companion's. Often the "standing" pax accepts or spontaneously offers to relocate. When it doesn't happen we politely but firmly ask the other pax to take is original seat and look for an alternative (find 2 vacant seats to allow him/her to seat near spouse or the aisle/window seat he wanted). Those are very tricky situations because they have a lot to do with the concept of "territoriality" and it is very easy for a pax to feel "imposed" and refuse to do something just because it's been asked the "wrong" (not a value judgement, I mean "wrong" in that particular case, in order to obtain the result you were looking for). It is very important for us CC to present the problem in a way to defuse the situation and give the pax the impression he/she's not imposed and not make him/her lose face. Just the day before yesterday, I had a Business Class pax who boarded late (from a connecting flight) call me. He explained in an indignant tone that he wanted to put his trolley in the hatrack, but since they were all full the only place available was possible only by moving the duty free bag of another pax. He told me he had asked the owner (evil look at "the owner") but that he had refused. The guy in question was a big moustached Eastern Europe businessman who was looking at our exchange with a fierce expression. I smiled at him my sweetest smile, and told the indignant pax "Oh surely this gentleman misundederstood your intentions, and didn't understand you just asked him if you could move his bag. Let me ask him in English" Then to Mr Moustache:" Sir, would you mind if I moved your duty free bag just in the hatrack next to this? I can take care of it, you don't need to move. That would be very kind of you and would expedit our departure." More smile. He agreed with a moustached grin, and more grin when I offered another glass of champagne.
Going back to the seat issue, I believe a pax has the right to get his assigned seat if he wants it. In the situation where the other firmly refused to leave it, and no other satisfying solution could be found, I would inform the captain (refusing to comlpy with a request of the crew is stage 2 of indiscipline) and try to sort it out with the help of the ground staff. I don't think we would need to deplane or have the pax carried off the aircraft because I'm sure another solution would be found before, but in no case I would let down the pax who was originally assigned a seat, like it's happened to you.
