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Economy Class Syndrome

Old 28th Mar 2004, 15:52
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Economy Class Syndrome

Now another aspect.
In todays Daliy Telegraph
How long will it take for the airlines to understand that they cannot, any longer, subject fare paying passenges to the exquisite torture of seat pitches at 34 inches or less,

When will the long suffering travelling public finally rise up and say "enough is enough. Give us a reasonably comfortable jouney"
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Old 28th Mar 2004, 16:04
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maybe when there willing to pay for it.
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Old 28th Mar 2004, 16:30
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Quite....what can you expect for trans Atlantic flights for less than 150 US$?
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Old 28th Mar 2004, 17:25
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Which reminds me of the experience of a fellow controller who, on visiting a certain well-known-British-long-haul-airline flight deck was asked by the captain: "What's it like in bucket and spade?". Thinking his luck was in for an upgrade the poor, wretched, ATCO replied: "Pretty awful". "Oh", said the captain, "just wondered - I've never travelled there myself". End of conversation!
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Old 28th Mar 2004, 18:41
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Bucket-and-spade is luxury compared to the wretchedness of so-called Business Class in the cramped confines of the CRJ 100, 200 or 700 operated by non-low cost carriers such as Lufthansa!
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Old 28th Mar 2004, 18:58
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Consumer choice is generally available, even on BEagle's CRJ sectors, there'll often be a competitor with a "full size" offering.

As a reasonably frequent long haul traveller, I think the balance between space/price/choice is about right. I'd like to travel club, but the price difference is just not worth it to me.

Just travel in a calm frame of mind, otherwise everything will wind you up. After all, even the longest trip is unlikely to be much over 24 hours, and that goes pretty quickly
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Old 28th Mar 2004, 19:11
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What continually perplexes me is that the legroom available on BA's A320s is more than they offer on their 747s. Am I dreaming?
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Old 29th Mar 2004, 13:00
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How long will it take for the airlines to understand that they cannot, any longer, subject fare paying passenges to the exquisite torture of seat pitches ...
Simple. They can do so for as long as people pay the price! When I travel long haul on my own account, I go in Premium Economy (or similar). Friends of mine wonder why I pay extra whilst complaing about the smaller seats but they will not pay for larger. QED

If the thread title was remaking the link between DVT and economy class seating, don't forget that there is no link. The other week, a woman I know died of DVT and had not been near an aeroplane in months. She had high blood pressure and was being treated for stress.
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Old 29th Mar 2004, 13:19
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Gentlemen

Fly MAS or SQ whenever you can, lots of leg room back there, and the service you probley know about !

Have found an upgrade works sometimes (in fact quite often) with a business card passed to the man up front !
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Old 29th Mar 2004, 13:22
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DVT can be caused by many many things -- too many years on the pill can be one cause -- which is not the same thing as no link between it and flying. I know someone who died of lung cancer who never smoked. By your logic that proves there is no link between smoking and cancer.

And the 34 inch debate is not simply about price. Obvously, if you pay more, you get more, but it is the standard that should change. 34" just isn't enough, especially long-haul. And if the standard were bigger would airline economics go all to pot? Don't think so.

Recall also the Charlotte Beech 1900 crash, in the wake of which (although it was not related to the cause of the crash) FAA realised they had to recalculate average human weight for load calculation purposes. People are getting bigger, not just Americans. So, either bigger seats or free shoehorn with every boarding card.
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Old 29th Mar 2004, 14:53
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Hmm......if the 'standard' legroom offered goes up to 34in then the 'standard', i.e. average, price will go up.

With airline economics razor-thin as it is, the removal of a row or two of seats will make the difference between profit and loss.

Why don't people understand this? If you want more space, pay for it.

Personally, I'd rather walk around the cabin for a bit and go for a brisk jog at the other end. And I'll have more spending money to play with on holiday.........
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Old 29th Mar 2004, 15:04
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This link gives a comparison of airlines differing seat pitches. Maybe useful if you're on the tall side, like me

And another one here
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Old 29th Mar 2004, 15:32
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Thread semi-hijack: BN, thanks for the links. The first one gives this statement (below the table of seats)
Virgin Blue Pay the extra $50 and get a "Blue Seat" which a pre-booked exit row. [sic]
Cannot say that thrills me too much. We have debated this problem in SLF forum. If you can pay extra money to get the 'exit row' what saftey precautions are being taken?
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Old 29th Mar 2004, 16:01
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PAXBoy,
If you can pay extra money to get the 'exit row' what saftey precautions are being taken?
Good you ask! None. Or little.

BahrainLad,
If you want more space, pay for it.
Things aint quite that simple. There is, indeed, a difference between 150$/Euros and, say, 500. Still, you will be sitting in the same row. I cannot really understand the policy behind these extreme discount fares. Stop offering them, and you miiigghht eventually be able to remove a seat row or two.

BEagle,
ever sat in a ERJ (as pax)?
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Old 29th Mar 2004, 19:32
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Whinge! Whinge! Whinge!

Presumably these people complain after buying a car that the boot is too small and the legroom inadequate. "Why shouild I have to pay more to get a better car!" they will scream at the dealer.

You pays your money and you takes your choice...as they say. I am now relegated to the SLF and have just bought a real ticket to the States with Continental for £200. I regard that as such a bargain that I will be surprised if it includes toilet privileges. Will it be cramped? You bet it will, but that is the deal that I am on.

Later in the year I will probably take Mrs Scannon with me who is more particular. It will cost around £2000 for a business class seat for each of us.

I just hope that they don't upgrade one of the whingers to keep them quiet!
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Old 29th Mar 2004, 21:40
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The policy behind "extreme discount fares" is basic airline economics.

An airline seat is not like a Mars bar (although a certain Mr. Batt might disagree) that can sit on the shelf until it gets used. Once the door shuts, the seat is gone. If you can fill it with a punter flying for $150, isn't that better than flying the seat without an occupant and getting $0?

You could always fly American; more room throughout coach.

But then again, the cabin crew will treat you as a terrorist, the inflight service is invisible and they'll charge you £3 for a beer.

I'd take my chances with Virgin or BA if I were you.......
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Old 30th Mar 2004, 02:35
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With most First Class cabins being effectively very expensive staff canteens with the odd upgraded passenger thrown in, wouldn’t it make economic sense for an airline to be brave enough to buck the present trend and dispense with 1st Class and use this space to increase ‘back end’ seat pitch?

Personally, I travel on TG primarily because their seat pitch of 34” is greater than most other carriers. No pun intended, but a few extra inches makes all the difference
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Old 30th Mar 2004, 03:08
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According to this logic, last-minute airline fares should be cheaper, as the airline ought to be willing any payment, no matter how low, before shutting the door and allowing the plane to take off with an empty seat that could have been occupied.

Yet we know that fares get more expensive as time of departure approaches.

There is a logic behind this, but I forget the nuances. Possibly something to do with instant gratification ie. you can wait for the next plane/time slot that is cheaper. If you can't wiat, then you pay a premium.

---------
An airline seat is not like a Mars bar (although a certain Mr. Batt might disagree) that can sit on the shelf until it gets used. Once the door shuts, the seat is gone. If you can fill it with a punter flying for $150, isn't that better than flying the seat without an occupant and getting $0?
----------
Upper class tickets cost seven to ten times as much as a discount economy class ticket. Let's say there are six rows in first class, four berths in each row ie. 24 total. That's equal to 240 economy passengers. Assume a plane is configured for 320 economy passengers, and that the first class section occupies 25% of the length of the plane.

To keep the math simple, assume each economy class seat costs $1 and each 1st Class seat costs $10. Assuming 75% occupancy, you would get $180 out of first class and $240 out of economy or $420 total.

Now, if you remove upper class, and used all the space to stretch out the remaining seats, you would have 240 seats to make $420 ie. each seat would have to cost 75% more.

Would you be willing to pay 75% more for about 25% more legroom? I probably wouldn't, as I find economy class seats to be adequate. Not luxurious, but for the most part, adequate.

Would appreciate it if someone in the know could fine-tune my numbers.

Last edited by tvrfreak; 30th Mar 2004 at 03:29.
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Old 30th Mar 2004, 06:51
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Aileron Roll says:

"Fly MAS or SQ whenever you can, lots of leg room back there, and the service you probley know about !"

I beg to differ. I admit I've only flown Business Class long haul on MAS but as for SQ....LHR / SIN / LHR last summer in 'Y'. The seat pitch was no better than on a My Travel charter a year earlier LGW /SFB /LGW. At meal times the seat had to be upright or no-one could get to their meal. I'm only short but even my legs touched the seat in front. As for the service - I've had better on GB Airways from LGW to various destinations in the Med. You can't tell me that the SQ idea of a bar round consisting of beakers of orange juice or beer served from a tray is any sort of standard to go by. Even UK charter carriers use bar carts with a full range of drinks on offer.
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Old 30th Mar 2004, 07:07
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They can do so for as long as people pay the price!
So, because I have happen to have naturally grown to 6 foot 5", I should be out of pocket to ensure my comfort?
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