US Visa Waiver Programme?

[OFBSLF]

Final 3 Greens:

That and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee. Looking at this from the practical side... you may not like our laws. I may not like some of them either. Neither of our opinions are likely to get them changed, let alone changed in time for climbnormal's visit to the US. The US laws and regulations are what they are. So climbnormal's choices are 1) knowingly violate our laws and risk the consequences, 2) obey our laws and do what that entails, or 3) take a holiday somewhere else.

As for the UK's decision to deploy troops to Iraq -- first, that's a different issue and has nothing to do with US visa regulations, and second, that's between you and your Prime Minister, isn't it? If you don't like his decision, toss him and/or his party out at the next election.

As for someone needing an "attitude adjustment," we'll have to agree to disagree on just who needs such an adjustment.

[climbnormal]

Thanks everyone for the input.

Please don't let it develop into the usual PPRuNe US vs. UK slanging match. Things are the way they are and we have to live with that. I suppose it's fair to say though that there isn't much difference between the US parties when it comes to foreign policy so voting one lot out wouldn't necessarily make that much difference. On the other hand, of course, New Labour didn't seem much different from the last Tory government up until very recently when they began to significantly increase public spending. Oh dear, I've drifted my own thread now.

My latest thinking is that in my relatively trustworthy position as a pilot, it's important to keep previous misdemeanours way back in the past rather than add to them by lying my way into another country. Although, according to current predictions I'll never get a long-haul command so permanent exclusion from the US wouldn't much matter, you never know when the CRA might increase to 60 or 65. There could even be a period of world stability and the airline industry expand by 15/20%! Thus, I shall be exploring somewhere else in the world in Jan and investing some effort next year into gaining the extra passports to allow us to wait whilst visa applications are in the post in future.

I can't help wondering what the wording of the I-94W (VWP) form that is given out on flights is though. A friend thinks it may just ask whether you have been convicted of serious offences such as fraud or terrorism, in which case I could give the right answers without actually lying. I suppose that this wouldn't really overcome the fact that you are not allowed to enter visa free if you have a criminal record, although I could plead ignorance/insanity (ah... I think insanity makes you inadmissable too, best stick to ignorance then).

Whichever way you look at it, it has to be best to stick to the rules I guess. Humbug! Obviously, there's a little bit of the rebel still in me that would like to take a chance and enjoy beating the system.

[Boss Raptor]

Have you ever been arrested or convicted for any reason other than minor traffic offenses, and/or have the intention of violating the law in U.S.? Have you ever participated in any way in terrorist activities or activities related to the overthrow of the U.S. Government by force? Are you a drug user, addict or have trafficked or assisted in trafficking illegal drugs (controlled substances)? Between 1933 and 1945 were you in any way involved in the persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies?...and do you have a communicable disease?

Comments from the accompanying article, very true...

Is the INS attempting to trap Nazi war criminals or terrorists off-guard, tired after a long flight, hoping they'll accidentally confess? - "Hitler alive and caught - ticks 'yes, I am a Nazi war criminal' on visa waiver form" Or if they can't secure a conviction for a terrorist, at least they can charge them with something - "Osama bin Laden fined for misleading information on INS form."

[OFBSLF]

Or if they can't secure a conviction for a terrorist, at least they can charge them with something - "Osama bin Laden fined for misleading information on INS form."

I'd guess that it is more along the lines of if they lied on the form, then they can be deported more easily. Once someone is inside the US, it can be very time consuming and difficult to deport them. I'll try to remember to ask my BICE aquaintance.

Then again, who knows what "logic" drives bureaucrats...

[Boss Raptor]

I tried to find a copy of the form but it is not pictured on the INS website although many others are.

I recall some rather strange wording as for the conviction part 'have you committed or been convicted of a xxx 'Something' xxx' and it is a word we dont use in British English in that exact form and isn't in a British English dictionary?

Anyone recall?

Climbnormal - you mention yr wife is Spanish? then she also qualifies on the Visa Waiver programme under normal circumstances.

[climbnormal]

Yes BR, apart from the little confession I made on her behalf upon opening this thread, which sadly falls foul of the 'have you ever been arrested' question.

If your memory of the wording on the I-94W form is correct then it appears to mirror exactly the wording on the normal non-immigrant visa application form. Indeed, why wouldn't it?

It seems that if you have been arrested but not charged, it is acceptable to just state the circumstances on the visa application form, but if you have been charged or convicted you have to send the court papers with the application.

Anyway, it looks as if I'll have to stick to the rules, so that rules out going to the USA on 9th Jan. I would be unable to get everything done in time. Got any ideas for where else to go this time of year? Amazingly the missus is bored with the Caribbean! What's Singapore like this time of year?

[OFBSLF]

What's Singapore like this time of year?

If you're headed that far, why not go to Tahiti? Or New Zealand?

[Final 3 Greens]

BR

Moral Turpitude is the term you are seeking.

[Boss Raptor]

That's the one...'Moral Turpitude'...I had never heard of it before as had about every other Brit on the flight...and we asked the American Airlines F/A and she didn't really know but just said and I quote 'just tick no anyway'

[Final 3 Greens]

BR

It means moral depravity or wickedness

[Boss Raptor]

A rather wide question/definition that one...clearly for catching war criminals etc...and interpretation applied according to the local direction...or as you say a few more could fall foul of that one...

Bloody stupid question

I like the bit on the form which is the 'cost' of filling it in calculated by the Bureau of Paper Pushing...a classic

I was not aware until I discovered yesterday that US Immigration charges the airline (for that read the pax.) $6 for each I-94 and I-94W that is filed. I have never come across any other immigration body charging directly to allow a passenger to enter..so not only do you have to put up with their attitude we have to pay for it as well

[watergate]

Wife and I discussed going to NY next summer for our holidays because of many good memories from previous visits.
However, because of the American attitude problem towards foreigners dropped the idea.
Going to Greece instead.

[OFBSLF]

I like the bit on the form which is the 'cost' of filling it in calculated by the Bureau of Paper Pushing...a classic

That statement is required by US law. IIRC, the thinking behind the law was to remind the petty bureaucrats that every form they create costs taxpayer money. I think it was a vain attempt at behavior modification.

[PAXboy]

A friend of mine (sadly now dead) was a professor of music at a college in the USA. As he had permanent tenure in his post, the only excuse they had to chuck him out was 'Moral Turpitude'.

We spent many happy hours debating how much turpitude he would have to endure before being removed from his post. He became highly inventive at devising what was the manner of the turpitude in which he would be discovered ...

[pilotwolf]

Copied direct from the Visa Waiver form in front of me..

B. Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral acctivities?


Also notice that it was confirmed on the news that the UK will porvide details of every pax name, address, DOB, criminal record to the US authorities on every trip across the Atlantic.

PW

[Boss Raptor]

Thanks for that...

In which case Climbnormal and his wife seem to pass the requirements as their offences dont constitute 'the two or more offences aggregate sentance etc.'

[Lily Rowan]

From my reading of the question, it appears that Climbnormal is in the clear.

Unfortunately, his wife, having been arrested for a violation relating to a controlled substance, would have to check the “Yes” box if she chose to answer truthfully.

[climbnormal]

Thanks for the wording piltowolf,

It certainly does seem to allow some leeway, which I suppose is where I was coming from in the first place. Odd really as the US Embassy in London's website clearly states that you cannot travel visa free under the previously discussed conditions. It looks as if they are confused themselves!

Anyway, all inclusive holiday booked to Tobago instead now (how bad is that?) ... Will see about getting second passports and proper (= honest) visas for later on in the year. When in doubt, take the safest option.

[OFBSLF]

It looks as if they are confused themselves!

Not surprising. Laws and regulations are often so poorly written that nobody reallly knows what they mean. My wife often deals with state regulators and on more than on occasion, when she has asked about a particular regulation, the government drone on the other end has said "Good question. I don't know. What do you think?"

In many of these cases the blame belongs not on the bureaucrat pogue trying to figure out the laws/regulations than on the idiots who wrote them in the first place.

[1]

I won't go to the US for holidays anymore. Those guys are completly crazy. I mean... similar to Russia in the KGB days I would say ... fingerprints upon arrival ... com'on ...