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-   -   Radio/ATC etiquette and professionalism (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/654130-radio-atc-etiquette-professionalism.html)

jasonrf 10th Aug 2023 06:57

Radio/ATC etiquette and professionalism
 
Random topic up for discussion or your views would be appreciated

What do you think makes the airline industry have amazing radio etiquette and professionalism?

Would it be the training provided? The professionalism/ideology held in aviation? Comes down to the person?

And do you think if you aren't professional on the 2-way how can it be instilled into a person?


Thank you

parishiltons 10th Aug 2023 07:39


Originally Posted by jasonrf (Post 11482179)
Random topic up for discussion or your views would be appreciated

What do you think makes the airline industry have amazing radio etiquette and professionalism?

Would it be the training provided? The professionalism/ideology held in aviation? Comes down to the person?

And do you think if you aren't professional on the 2-way how can it be instilled into a person?


Thank you

Clearly you're not referring to practice in the USA.

More seriously, it's safety. Using ICAO standard phraseology gives a better chance of everyone understanding each other, including people who use English as a second or professional language.

Also with the increasing use of CPDLC, voice comms are gradually reducing and most datalink messages are preformatted to ICAO standard, with limited freetext.

maggot 10th Aug 2023 07:46

Behind, line up behind, behind.

Checked.

Gne 10th Aug 2023 07:58


Originally Posted by parishiltons (Post 11482196)
Clearly you're not referring to practice in the USA.

More seriously, it's safety. Using ICAO standard phraseology gives a better chance of everyone understanding each other, including people who use English as a second or professional language.

Also with the increasing use of CPDLC, voice comms are gradually reducing and most datalink messages are preformatted to ICAO standard, with limited freetext.

When we were working on the initial message sets for CPDLC (South Pacific FANS1 1993-96) the most exciting part was that, at last, there would be a standard set of phraseology that could not be "tailored" for personal wishes. Of the four airlines involved (NZ, UA, QF and CX) guess which one voiced concern the the free text option was difficult to access.

Gne

CaptCloudbuster 10th Aug 2023 09:35


What do you think makes the airline industry have amazing radio etiquette and professionalism?
What’s with all the East Coast clowns making sheep noises constantly on 121.5?

Clare Prop 10th Aug 2023 09:38

I hear some pretty bad RT, one of my pet hates is "Affirmative" and people broadcasting in the third person "ABC lines up" etc


It's not difficult to learn and all in the AIP.

SixDemonBag 10th Aug 2023 09:44

Meow.

:ugh:

TimmyTee 10th Aug 2023 10:24

VIA THE STAR DAMNIT

BraceBrace 10th Aug 2023 11:28


Originally Posted by jasonrf (Post 11482179)
Comes down to the person?

People are copycats. If only one generation starts to be "correct", the next generation will follow. So as long as American instructors are "coming down" with the transponder and "howzdaride-ing", American students will copy the cool instructors and captains without hesitating. He's cool, he's doing it, I'm doing it, now I'm cool as well.

Doesn't take out the personality psychology: some people just like standards less than others.

Not meaning to bash on the American culture specifically by the way, every culture has their "I'm part of the gang"-slang.

Equivocal 10th Aug 2023 11:47

Many years ago I used to do ATC. I will admit to being a bit 'relaxed' on the radio on occasions when I knew it would not cause any problems for anyone and was equally happy if those on the other end of comms were similarly relaxed at times. Life without a little bit of variation or fun can be decidedly dull.

However, when it got busy, there were non-native speakers on frequency or someone had a problem, I went 100% standard phraseology as did the vast majority of others on frequency. For me, it's a matter of professionalism - knowing when it has to be done right....and doing it right. Some may differ and believe that it should be done right all the time, and I really couldn't argue with that position. But not recognising when it need to be done right, or simply never doing it right, is unprofessional.

BraceBrace has it correct when it comes to monkey see, monkey do, and if someone never learns what is correct in the first place, they will never be able to demonstrate professionalism when it is absolutely necessary.

Chronic Snoozer 10th Aug 2023 11:57


Originally Posted by Clare Prop (Post 11482243)
It's not difficult to learn and all in the AIP.

Even the sheep noises?

Stuart Sutcliffe 10th Aug 2023 12:18


Originally Posted by jasonrf (Post 11482179)
What do you think makes the airline industry have amazing radio etiquette and professionalism?

Would it be the training provided? The professionalism/ideology held in aviation? Comes down to the person?

Firstly, professional flyers will (should!) have had formal training and testing, so that is the foundation. Secondly, I believe, it is because there is an international, standardised phraseology and structure. Simultaneous two-way conversations aren't possible, so practicality (and etiquette?) necessitates one transmission needs to clearly finish before the other half of the conversation can respond.

As has already been hinted at here, a notable number of the radio users of one nation don't seem to be capable of sticking to standard phraseology or brevity. They remind me of people hunched over a bar counter, yapping excessively and mindlessly. Such verbiage is often replete with truncated phrases and colloquialisms, that often need effort to decipher, and this can certainly hamper those whose first languge is not English!

Some of the ATCOs of the same nation also appear to revel in trying to talk at the speed of light, creating a difficult time for those on the receiving end of the transmissions. Once again, it creates an issue for many, and a real problem for second-language aviators.

I accept that there will be occasions when a situation demands going outside the standard phraseology, perhaps in an effort to clarify intent behind an instruction, or resolving a particularly unusual situation. Sometimes a measured, calm, conversational, plain English sentence or two can provide comfort to someone in peril. But the majority of transmissions should really use ICAO standard words, phrases and structure, so that all on the frequency can modify their situational awareness, as required.

I won't get started on another nation that appears to believe that it's citizens can dispense with waiting their turn, continually butting in to transmissions already in progress.

cLeArIcE 10th Aug 2023 13:55


Originally Posted by Equivocal (Post 11482306)
Many years ago I used to do ATC. I will admit to being a bit 'relaxed' on the radio on occasions when I knew it would not cause any problems for anyone and was equally happy if those on the other end of comms were similarly relaxed at times. Life without a little bit of variation or fun can be decidedly dull.

However, when it got busy, there were non-native speakers on frequency or someone had a problem, I went 100% standard phraseology as did the vast majority of others on frequency. For me, it's a matter of professionalism - knowing when it has to be done right....and doing it right. Some may differ and believe that it should be done right all the time, and I really couldn't argue with that position. But not recognising when it need to be done right, or simply never doing it right, is unprofessional.

BraceBrace has it correct when it comes to monkey see, monkey do, and if someone never learns what is correct in the first place, they will never be able to demonstrate professionalism when it is absolutely necessary.

Now now.... Surely you're not suggesting that we all apply a bit of commen sense to our daily operations.... and suggesting that at times it's okay to be relaxed , enjoy our work but, (obviously) there are times when that's not appropriate???
Sir (mam)..? umm .. There is nothing written in my space shuttle launch manual for what you describe.

inbalance 10th Aug 2023 14:01


Originally Posted by jasonrf (Post 11482179)
What do you think makes the airline industry have amazing radio etiquette and professionalism?

Not all of them.
Most of the guard police are airline pilots.
That behavior is unprofessional and Superfluous

Rick2023 10th Aug 2023 15:09

“Roll the trucks”. What the actual phuck? Anytime I hear some moron say that during an emergency I think “what kind of airline industry allows that sort of clown culture to exist?”

‘Murica. ‘Nuff said yanks.

KRviator 10th Aug 2023 21:43


Originally Posted by jasonrf (Post 11482179)
Random topic up for discussion or your views would be appreciated

What do you think makes the airline industry have amazing radio etiquette and professionalism?

Would it be the training provided? The professionalism/ideology held in aviation? Comes down to the person?

And do you think if you aren't professional on the 2-way how can it be instilled into a person?


Thank you

I'd say the ongoing sim checks and standardisation. Try some of the truckie UHF banter on a sim check and see how well you do. If you wouldn't do it in the box, you won't do it on the line. Usually. Pilots are usually fairly sensible and safe operators by their nature, and when told to do something 'for safety reasons' (ie standardised radio phrases and the like), readily accept that as part of their SOP's.

That being said, there is a place for a 'relaxed but not unsafe' culture on the radio where situations permit, but it needs to be tempered with caution, in my experience. Those ATC'ers are usually a damn sight faster-thinking than yours truly, so it's pretty hard to get one over on 'em if you're gonna have a lark, but simple politeness "BN CTR, good morning Alpha Bravo Charlie maintaining FL170" costs nothing except an extra second of airtime, even though it's not in the AIP. "Center on 123.75, 'ave a good one, g'day" likewise. "BN CTR Alpha Bravo Charlie request...." again, not strictly in accordance with the AIP, but it lets the ACTO get ready for a 'non-standard' phrase about to come their way and can avoid you having to repeat it, and if your request is granted, a thank you with your acknowledgement is deserved. Again, not per the AIP, but it takes all of 1 second and lets the lass/lad at the other end know you're appreciative of their efforts.

The concern I have is if they're not professional enough on the radio, what else in their role aren't they taking seriously - and how do you police it? The ATCO's don't have the time to 'dob in' every unprofessional weekend warrior on the radio, and even in a two-crew operation, no one wants to be 'that person' who dobs in their fellow crewmember.

C441 10th Aug 2023 22:17


Of the four airlines involved (NZ, UA, QF and CX) guess which one voiced concern the the free text option was difficult to access.
Sometimes the text option can be handy….. The default option only gives you answers relevant to the question.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....544a0af90b.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....6e8583e2d0.jpg


NGsim 10th Aug 2023 23:34

“United 941, Qantas 429 on guard…..”
”You’re on guard” 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

ACMS 11th Aug 2023 10:18


Originally Posted by NGsim (Post 11482659)
“United 941, Qantas 429 on guard…..”
”You’re on guard” 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


Ummmm there’s a reason it’s said that way and if you got down off your high horse you’d see it.


pssst…we can me monitoring 3 VHF frequencies at once and it’s handy to know which one they are calling on isn’t it :D

ACMS 11th Aug 2023 10:20

What is it about the NSW and QLD areas with all the stupid Cat and Sheep calls on 121.5………sounds like a turboprop aircraft radio to me…….come on grow up people…….

apologies this has been covered above but it really pisses me off the stupidity and childishness of some “professional Pilots”

Stop it, you know who you are.

Capt Fathom 11th Aug 2023 10:59


Originally Posted by ACMS (Post 11482858)
Ummmm there’s a reason it’s said that way and if you got down off your high horse you’d see it.

I think you missed it ACMS!

ACMS 11th Aug 2023 13:20

The way I read it he was poking fun at the QF guy for transmitting on guard and saying “on guard”, he was implying it wasn’t a needed comment hence he put the slapping face emoji in there……..
I don’t agree with his assessment and I’ve stated why.

he is being a smart ass basically.

NGsim 11th Aug 2023 19:17

Well you read it very very wrong.

Una Due Tfc 11th Aug 2023 19:25

Best bit of advice I got from my on the job instructor when doing my initial ATCO training was "the busier the sector, the slower you need to speak. It reduces repeats/corrections, and gives you time to think".

Rick2023 11th Aug 2023 21:33

Also sticking the microphone inside your throat or up against your lips may feel comforting but it just results in comms that are overloaded with interference and basically unintelligible.

Ever seen someone push the mic closer to their mouth and exasperatedly exhort their precious words even more badly?

That's hhwwhaaat I'm talking about.


ACMS 11th Aug 2023 23:17


Originally Posted by NGsim (Post 11483158)
Well you read it very very wrong.

Well then you need to express yourself a little better I’d say.

NGsim 12th Aug 2023 00:39


Originally Posted by ACMS (Post 11483250)
Well then you need to express yourself a little better I’d say.

Cpt. Fathom seemed to pick up what I was saying with relative ease.
But correct, it’s all me good sir……

421dog 12th Aug 2023 02:51

Just flew across the central third of the US today (about 930 mi) with a bit of weather diversion) on a single leg, and heard what sounded like the same guy say “On guard” three times while I was monitoring 121.5 when I wasn’t doing anything else over the 3.5 hr flight.
Radio works fine, never heard any other Guard transmissions, center didn’t seem to be looking for anybody.
(Truly, the biggest reason I monitor [other than regs] it is to help center find the RJ’s that miss their handoffs)

Should we consider the term “Radio Karens”?

421dog 12th Aug 2023 03:01

Parenthetically,
i would Postulate that “Position and Hold”

(After stating “ready for takeoff”)
is more descriptive than “Line up and Wait” (which might indicate to the uninitiated to do something else before getting out on the runway as instructed)

Captain Dart 12th Aug 2023 04:39

Got called by an Asian Air Defence controller in a reasonably sensitive area on Guard one day. I started to respond with position and details (all legit). Could hardly get a further word in edgeways after the Guard Police erupted 🙄.

ChrisJ800 12th Aug 2023 06:04

Always used to recognise Niki Lauda when he flew into Sydney...

Lead Balloon 12th Aug 2023 07:17


Originally Posted by 421dog (Post 11483295)
Parenthetically,
i would Postulate that “Position and Hold”

(After stating “ready for takeoff”)
is more descriptive than “Line up and Wait” (which might indicate to the uninitiated to do something else before getting out on the runway as instructed)

I thought the FAA changed from "Position and Hold" to "Line up and Wait" over a decade ago because the former phraseology was causing confusion. For my part, "Line up and Wait" makes a lot more sense than "Position and Hold".



421dog 12th Aug 2023 07:52


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11483340)
I thought the FAA changed from "Position and Hold" to "Line up and Wait" over a decade ago because the former phraseology was causing confusion. For my part, "Line up and Wait" makes a lot more sense than "Position and Hold".

They did, presumably because of the confusion it was causing the non-FAA pilots who were coming over and flying in our airspace 😎

They also took away our succinct flight plan forms (for domestic use) and imposed universal ICAO idiocy about the same time.

Lead Balloon 12th Aug 2023 08:07

I'm not saying ICAO is perfect - far from it - but...

When we analyse basic grammar, the words "position" and "hold" are capable of a variety of meanings - they can be nouns and verbs - but the words "line up" and "wait" have fewer meanings. English-speaking countries are generally the worst at it, these days.

421dog 12th Aug 2023 09:19


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11483363)
I'm not saying ICAO is perfect - far from it - but...

When we analyse basic grammar, the words "position" and "hold" are capable of a variety of meanings - they can be nouns and verbs - but the words "line up" and "wait" have fewer meanings. English-speaking countries are generally the worst at it, these days.

yep.
But we have more ops than the rest of you guys combined, and somehow “english” ended up as the international language of aviation, and everybody wants to fly in our airspace, so we’ll do our best to accommodate you.


Lead Balloon 12th Aug 2023 10:33

This is where people from English-speaking countries would say: "I couldn't care less", because the rules about aviation air-to-air- phraseology turn out to be what they happen to be from time to time and we'll all just get on with complying with them.

But in the good ol' USA, I'm apparently supposed to say: "I could care less", in order to convey my intention that I couldn't care less. Go figure.

Eric T Cartman 12th Aug 2023 11:16

Potential for error if used casually ?
Position and hold > Position and roll
Line up and hold > Line up and roll
Line up and wait > Line up zero eight

Mogwi 12th Aug 2023 12:10

One of the worst cases of R/T indiscipline I heard was one dark and busy night at JFK when the ground controller shouted
“OK, EVRYBODDYSHADDUP!!!!!!”
Said it all really.

Mog

Katamarino 12th Aug 2023 13:05


Originally Posted by ACMS (Post 11483250)
Well then you need to express yourself a little better I’d say.

I think the problem is with you. What he wrote was perfectly clear.

ehwatezedoing 12th Aug 2023 15:40


Originally Posted by 421dog (Post 11483384)
yep.
But we have more ops than the rest of you guys combined, and somehow “english” ended up as the international language of aviation, and everybody wants to fly in our airspace, so we’ll do our best to accommodate you.

Nah! The other way around, it's the rest of the world who is trying to accommodate you by using English as international language :p



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