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-   -   Forced Landing on Collaroy Beach NSW (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/640682-forced-landing-collaroy-beach-nsw.html)

KRviator 27th May 2021 05:26

Point of order, the original one was, however, Senor Crawford signed another self-repealing version into force 25 January 2021, that expires 31 January 2024, or earlier of the Part 103/105/131 amendments kick off. From what I can tell, it's still current. Here it is.

This Order:
(a) commences on 1 February 2021; and
(b) is repealed on the earlier of the following:
(i) the day of commencement of Schedule 1 to the Civil Aviation Legislation Amendment (Parts 103, 105 and 131) Regulations 2019;
(ii) the end of 31 January 2024.
It still refers to "Single-Place" or "Two-Place" which, as CAO 20.16.3 stipulates, does not mean "Single-Person" or "Two-Person".


Originally Posted by mcoates
Commercial aircraft have different rules.... some people just don't get it and I'm glad that I'm not flying anywhere near you if your understanding of the regulations are so poor.

Could it be it is not my understanding of the regulations is poor. You forget, I'm the one who argued their own rules against them and got my RV-9A registered with RAAus - and as a two seater too - when everyone else "Knew" you couldn't register one with them because "you won't meet the HP/Seat formula" or "Your stall speed is too high" or "You can't carry two adults"...I showed RAAus - and the naysayers where they were wrong. I've asked you to show me where I am wrong - because all you've done thus far is make a vague reference to "it's in the CAO's" while not understanding the very CAO under discussion applies to all Australian aircraft, rather, you've confused it with only applying to Commercial aircraft.

I wonder if I could get my two rugrat's in the RV now it's been re-registered VH? I'm not limited by a 600Kg MTOW anymore! :}

Ia8825 27th May 2021 05:37


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11052177)
Point of order, the original one was, however, Senor Crawford signed another self-repealing version into force 25 January 2021, that expires 31 January 2024, or earlier of the Part 103/105/131 amendments kick off. From what I can tell, it's still current. Here it is.
It still refers to "Single-Place" or "Two-Place" which, as CAO 20.16.3 stipulates, does not mean "Single-Person" or "Two-Person".

You are, as per usual, correct. And the RA AUS part 149 exposition refers back to it. However as I believe you and I have both pointed out, it only limits the number of seats in a recreational aircraft, not the number of passengers.

The Bullwinkle 27th May 2021 05:57

You’d like to think that the CEO of RAAus knows what he’s talking about.

https://www.australianflying.com.au/...-seaters-raaus

Recreational Aviation Australia (RAAus) CEO Michael Linke has told Australian Flying that the organisation has no interest in administering four-seat aircraft.

RAAus has a submission with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) to raise the maximum take-off weight of recreational aircraft to 1500 kg, sparking speculation in the industry that the organisation is chasing the right to administer four-seaters.

Currently, recreational aircraft can carry only the pilot and one passenger.

"We've put the submission in, but we've been very careful to address the risk factors, the inertia factors, being heavier aircraft they're going to have different handling characteristics, different stall characteristics and different maintenance requirements," Linke said.

"The one thing we're not doing is increasing the number of people in the aircraft, seeking more passengers. That's not what RAAus is. We're about one person flying with a single passenger. We're not about carrying people around, it's not sightseeing; it's purely recreational with a pilot and passenger."

CASA is believed to be still considering the submission after RAAus responded to some questions the regulator wanted answered.

Ia8825 27th May 2021 06:01


Originally Posted by The Bullwinkle (Post 11052192)
You’d like to think that the CEO of RAAus knows what he’s talking about.

https://www.australianflying.com.au/...-seaters-raaus

Recreational Aviation Australia (RAAus) CEO Michael Linke has told Australian Flying that the organisation has no interest in administering four-seat aircraft.

RAAus has a submission with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) to raise the maximum take-off weight of recreational aircraft to 1500 kg, sparking speculation in the industry that the organisation is chasing the right to administer four-seaters.

Currently, recreational aircraft can carry only the pilot and one passenger.

"We've put the submission in, but we've been very careful to address the risk factors, the inertia factors, being heavier aircraft they're going to have different handling characteristics, different stall characteristics and different maintenance requirements," Linke said.

"The one thing we're not doing is increasing the number of people in the aircraft, seeking more passengers. That's not what RAAus is. We're about one person flying with a single passenger. We're not about carrying people around, it's not sightseeing; it's purely recreational with a pilot and passenger."

CASA is believed to be still considering the submission after RAAus responded to some questions the regulator wanted answered.

Then he may want to make the regulations match what he is saying then. Because at the moment they don’t match with him.

mcoates 27th May 2021 10:04

you cant argue with stupidity... Just wait for the court case, simples

L'aviateur 27th May 2021 10:42

Regardless of the passenger questions, thats one seriously good effort in achieving such a positive outcome from a forced landing, especially in that location. Good effort.

KRviator 27th May 2021 10:59


Originally Posted by mcoates
you cant argue with stupidity... Just wait for the court case, simples

Or you could actually do your own research and attempt to verify your claims with references and data rather than try to show what a hero you are by playing the man, not the ball...

Originally Posted by L'aviateur
Regardless of the passenger questions, thats one seriously good effort in achieving such a positive outcome from a forced landing, especially in that location. Good effort.

Just make sure someone is there to film the takeoff. See if they do any better than the Jab did...


Squawk7700 27th May 2021 11:24

That’s a quote from the “ex” CEO BTW.

mcoates 27th May 2021 23:05

When in doubt call the source....

Confirmation is, only 2 people can fly in an RA-Aus registered aircraft. No infants or 3rd person under any circumstance.

No dogs, unless you have a written exemption from CASA to carry the dog, and then it must be caged, there must be no chance of dog wee going anywhere in the aircraft.. my words not theirs, and the cage must be securely mounted.

Checklist Charlie 27th May 2021 23:31


there must be no chance of dog wee going anywhere in the aircraft.
Apparently this from the same source (aviation regulator) that had a CAO that said you could carry swine as long as it was restrained in a cage/box that would prevent escape by rooting.

Now they are worried about a bit of water. The same sort they seem to be full of!

CC


KRviator 28th May 2021 00:04


Originally Posted by mcoates (Post 11052685)
When in doubt call the source....

Confirmation is, only 2 people can fly in an RA-Aus registered aircraft. No infants or 3rd person under any circumstance.

No dogs, unless you have a written exemption from CASA to carry the dog, and then it must be caged, there must be no chance of dog wee going anywhere in the aircraft.. my words not theirs, and the cage must be securely mounted.

And the reference for this un-named persons opinion is.....?

mcoates 28th May 2021 02:12

RA-Aus of course 02 6280 4700

Ia8825 28th May 2021 02:50


Originally Posted by mcoates (Post 11052726)
RA-Aus of course 02 6280 4700

Ok so at best that's half an answer to KRAviator's question. WHO at RA Aus? Given phone numbers themselves aren't terribly good at providing air law advice I have to assume you spoke to a person. And frankly the air law knowledge of some of the senior operations staff at RA Aus isn't that flash either, given some of them don't know their own Ops Manual, and I have had some rather senior people say the AIP doesn't apply to RA pilots.

mcoates 28th May 2021 04:43

it's easy to see that a couple of the people here no more than the regulators.

The RA-Aus are delegated by CASA to register and license this end of the market segment. They should know their own rules and they were very clear with what they told me.

Maximum of 2 people in an RA-Aus aircraft at any time, no 3rd person is allowed regardless of size or age.

I have to do acknowledge that they know what they're talking about because they are CASA delegated authority to this end of the industry.

They are not aviation lawyer wannabes.

As I said earlier, you can't fight with stupidity!

Just wait-and-see what happens, it'll either go away by itself because no offence was committed, or action will be taken.

It wasn't you flying the aircraft was it ? and that is why you are so defensive ?

mcoates 28th May 2021 04:53

honestly, it is pointless communicating with some of you guys. To avoid any confusion I contacted the CASA appointed body that controls Recreational Aviation Australia. The control is delegated to the RA-Aus by CASA.

They should know everything about flying aircraft registered with them. The answer I got was an explicit NO, only 2 people in an RA-Aus aircraft, no children, no infants

KRviator 28th May 2021 05:37


Originally Posted by mcoates
honestly, it is pointless communicating with some of you guys. To avoid any confusion I contacted the CASA appointed body that controls Recreational Aviation Australia. The control is delegated to the RA-Aus by CASA.
They should know everything about flying aircraft registered with them. The answer I got was an explicit NO, only 2 people in an RA-Aus aircraft, no children, no infants


Originally Posted by mcoates (Post 11052755)
it's easy to see that a couple of the people here no more than the regulators.
The RA-Aus are delegated by CASA to register and license this end of the market segment. They should know their own rules and they were very clear with what they told me.
Maximum of 2 people in an RA-Aus aircraft at any time, no 3rd person is allowed regardless of size or age.
I have to do acknowledge that they know what they're talking about because they are CASA delegated authority to this end of the industry.
They are not aviation lawyer wannabes.
As I said earlier, you can't fight with stupidity!
Just wait-and-see what happens, it'll either go away by itself because no offence was committed, or action will be taken.
It wasn't you flying the aircraft was it ? and that is why you are so defensive ?

So, again, what reference where you provided?

You haven't even documented who you claim to have spoken to, apart from "RAAus". Was it the Tech Manager? Was it the CEO? The Chairman? Or the admin staff who answered the phone? You try to belittle other PPruner's by 'arguing against stupidity' but you yourself cannot provide a single reference to substantiate your position, only an obscure comment about a telephone call to someone in RAAus. :rolleyes:

As much as I would like to believe those in RAAus know what they're talking about, prior personal experience, documented both here and on other forums, demonstrate that is not always the case. I refer you to RAAus violating their own privacy policy by disclosing members addresses to aerodrome operators, before their (amended) privacy policy allowed it. I also refer you to a post of mine from 2014 where RAAus refused to allow my RV-9A - which met the requirements of CAO 95.55 - on to their register because their then-tech manager was sure he knew the legislation that administers their operations. And you know what? He was proven wrong, and for 4 years, I flew an RV-9A under RAAus administration, registered as a 2-seater, with a BEW of 445Kg and a 600Kg MTOW limit.

As you've said, you'd like to think they know what they're talking about - but if they can't even understand CAO 95.55 - arguably the most common piece of legislation that administers their operations - what hope do you think they have of understanding a relatively obscure CAO?

Head..er..wind 28th May 2021 06:56


Originally Posted by mcoates (Post 11052761)
honestly, it is pointless communicating with some of you guys. To avoid any confusion I contacted the CASA appointed body that controls Recreational Aviation Australia. The control is delegated to the RA-Aus by CASA.

They should know everything about flying aircraft registered with them. The answer I got was an explicit NO, only 2 people in an RA-Aus aircraft, no children, no infants


The person who seems to be creating the confusion while having no idea what communication is, is you Michael Coates. Perhaps if you simply provide the information that has been asked of you, then people might trust what you are saying. So far you have merely provided arrogant petulant comments; rather like a politician actually.

Squawk7700 28th May 2021 07:53


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11052771)
where RAAus refused to allow my RV-9A - which met the requirements of CAO 95.55 - on to their register because their then-tech manager was sure he knew the legislation that administers their operations. And you know what? He was proven wrong, and for 4 years, I flew an RV-9A under RAAus administration, registered as a 2-seater, with a BEW of 445Kg and a 600Kg MTOW limit.

What a useless aircraft! 2 x 70 kg's crew and 15 litres of fuel. Based on that, you wouldn't even be able to fit a tie-down kit.

No wonder they tried to stop you... it doesn't pass the sniff test and based on history of other operators that put RV's on the register, they frequently flew over-weight, so I'm not surprised they did what they did.

Are you suggesting that you never flew that aircraft over 600 kg's?



sagesau 28th May 2021 08:03

Unfortunately we live in a society that continues to insist on making increasingly complex and expensive legislation because of an obsession by some to operate in a loop hole. What we need is legislation that defines an intent rather than an action then we'd only need one piece of legalise, "don't be a smartarse".
[edit] I hereby plead guilty :ugh:

Ia8825 28th May 2021 08:55


Originally Posted by Squawk7700 (Post 11052831)
What a useless aircraft! 2 x 70 kg's crew and 15 litres of fuel. Based on that, you wouldn't even be able to fit a tie-down kit.

No wonder they tried to stop you... it doesn't pass the sniff test and based on history of other operators that put RV's on the register, they frequently flew over-weight, so I'm not surprised they did what they did.

Are you suggesting that you never flew that aircraft over 600 kg's?

It seems a bit out of line to be accusing someone of breaching the rules with no evidence other than your calculator. Perhaps KRAviator only wanted to fly single person, day VFR for shorter flights with the minimum of fuss and bother on the paperwork side. Given he has indicated it is no longer RA Registered then perhaps as their mission changed then they changed to VH reg to remain compliant with the regulations?


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