ASIC - Surely this must be the end
 

Soooo.... there are now no RPT aircraft servicing most aerodromes in Australia (or shortly there won't be).

Can we now, as some kind of quasi organised internet blogging aviation interested bunch get a message to the Attorney General to finally drop this idiotic scheme?

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What an awesome example of prioritisation.

Yep, while the government is stretched to the limit, officials swamped in both health and economic concerns, lets use THIS period of world history to push the anti ASIC agenda.

I hate paying for fee too but there’s a time and a place and this ain’t it.

I think all people are doing is observing that ASICs are irrelevant in a post pandemic world......along with a heap of other regulations.

Yes Junior,
I was just getting started. While some run around buying up dunny rolls... Priorities eh?
I hope you're ready for the brave new world, there is a lot of shedding going to happen. And while on the subject of history, the governments around the world including this one have used 'challenging' situations to push exactly the agenda they liked... without fear, recourse or consultation. How and why did we get the ASIC in the first place? And the only place I ever got checked was... wait for it... Connellan.

Now is exactly the time to shed the cobwebs.

But then it's interesting to note all defence leave has been cancelled...
How exactly is the government stretched to the limit? I don't see any public servants worrying too much, what I'm hearing is "I'm glad I've got a government job".
I guess (but I don't know)... you'll be ok Junior

Any changes at all will be driven by a long term reduction in the National Terrorism Threat Advisory. The Department has been pretty clear with industry that there will be no lessening of security requirements at all in the wake of Covid19.
Flippant and childish statements like that do little to give your argument any weight.

Plenty of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs. What is wrong with a bit of social interaction online discussing something that has irritated every aviator for a very long time?

I do notice Junior, that you are VERY opinionated on what people should or shouldn't discuss on here. You're by all means entitled to voice such opinions but please take a moment to reflect on yourself.

Roy it is "oft" stated "thank god I have a Government job" in times of lay off's. I don't see this situation being any different to previous ones. I have family members and friends in these near unsackable or great severance jobs.

There’s nothing wrong at all with wanting to get rid of ASICS, I hate them as much as anyone, they’re nothing but cash rort that do nothing to improve security.

I question the timing.

That said, in a time where aviation is hurting so much, maybe the savings will help.

Thank you Junior, that's like lighting up the runway in Nowra :D

Thanks for the clarification Roy. Though the statement was neither childish nor flippant, rather a true reflection of attitude among some mandarins within my sphere. I watched Get Smart last night with my daughter, the first and second sentence are like Get Smart and Yes Minister having sex in the back of the panel van.

Must get out my shoe phone......

Sprocket, I could think of so many responses on so many levels but it's clear I may as well talk to the cat.
Petition away champ.

It may be that, having wielded practically unfettered powers during this crisis, various pollies and bureaucrats will have ‘got the taste’.

Will be interesting to see how all these rules are going to be enforced. How do heavy fines alter the behaviour of people who have no money? Where will the new gaols be built and who will run them?

What practical security or safety purpose will be achieved by arresting or fining me for arriving at an empty airport with an expired ASIC?

There are plans to turn the airports into makeshift hospitals.

Typical Australian responses here about flaunting the rules. Bit like those who head to Bondi Beach and jump over the barriers.Fight for food and TP in supermarkets.

On Sunday I lost a great friend in Italy to this scourge. He was a national aerobatic pilot and warbird owner and flyer plus supported aviation. His son is a corporate pilot in Italy too.

Let's focus and work to get over this. Medical staff and responders need our support.

BS about ASIC cards etc etc is just that

It’s not about “flaunting” the rules. It’s about critically analysing the rules compliance with which is and is not going to help get us through the crisis.

What practical security or safety (or health) purpose will be achieved by arresting or fining me for arriving at an empty airport with an expired ASIC?

Walk me through the purpose of allowing school kids to be within 1.5 metres of each other at school (and within 1.5 metres of teachers who may be grandparents), but banning them from being within 1.5 metres of each other at the beach or in parks and keeping them away from their grandparents, and allowing them to go home each day to their parents who are nurses, doctors, fire fighters, policeman, ADF members etc.

Thread creep. Population of India 1.3 billion. Cases of virus 330, deaths 4. Now we know everything you read or get off the net is "110%" accurate however it does beg the question what are the first world countries doing wrong. Vietnam pop 96 million, over 100 cases no deaths (as yet) and appears to be business as usual (no economic close downs) but everyone wears a mask, everyone washes hands, every taxi is cleaned after use, every seat in every restaurant/café is cleaned after use etc. I don't believe these countries have a far better medical system than other parts of the world so what is the message?

Dont worry...the control freaks in this very authoritarian country will make sure the ASIC (their 'job') and revenue continues.
No RPT at yr regional airport any more? An ASIC will be reqired if there are any charter operators there.
No charter operators in existence?. An ASIC will be required if there are any pvt aircraft parked there.
If the airfield is abandoned and everyone has cleared out, an ASIC will be required to set foot on any airport property.
If you've given up aviation because there isnt any, you will still be required to get one because you had one before. And the ASIC is the only way to find out if you've been a very naughty boy or girl.

Your employer should be paying for it! Not you!

Funny man............................you live in the real world?

I know of many companies that reimburse their pilots for the ASIC. I guess it is the same as the argument over paying the award. Plenty do above and beyond, but there are also those who we all know don't.

Roy:
In terms of petitioning anything from our bureaucracy, I have about as much faith in that as I have of me walking on Mars. Especially when I would most likely be petitioning you, who has absolutely no interest in hearing it.

Anyway, why did you choose my thread to post your only two comments in 18 years of hanging out on PPRUNE?

Fair question..!

i reckon you could be making a call a bit early on this one - my guess is that it is only very early days in India and this virus will absolutely explode there. Just my 2 cents! I’ll buy you a beer if I’m wrong - when the pubs eventually open again!
Anyway, ASICs - absolute waste of time and money...

It's the same reason why they don't get 'Bombay belly' (or the Bali belly equivalent when in Bali) but we in the west do. Their immune systems are probably a lot more robust than ours because of their greater exposure to less hygienic surroundings.

re India - numbers reported would be the results of COVID testing (both numbers of cases and deaths). You would have to know how widespread their testing is before comparing numbers between countries. Many countries have very limited testing ability at the moment so confirmed cases and deaths will be under reported.

For those who think the data out of India reflects the reality there, I have shares in a certain bridge that I’ll sell you at the equivalent of the Virgin Australia share price. I hope I’m wrong and Indians have some miraculous resistance that will be discovered shortly.

Back to the topic: I think the pilot population is such an easy - now even more weakened - and lucrative target for the ‘security’ bureaucracy that it won’t give up the ASIC system without a fight. Indeed, a ‘dedicated’ bureaucrat might suggest to his or her bosses that the ASIC system could be used to regulate the flights of private and charter pilots in the interests of the health of the community in the current emergency.

Security and health! Who’s going to argue with that?

Yeah yeah, the ASIC is a pain.

So is the annual medical.

And the sim checks/ APC/ BFR or whatever other checking regime you are a part of.

Come to think of it, the theory exams are just plain onerous.

Get rid of the lot. First person to the machine gets the seat. Should go well....

You’re suggesting that activities and processes that contribute to competence and therefore safety have an equal value as activities and processes that contribute nothing to competence or safety or security? Interesting perspective.

I think it is an interesting perspective that you think background should not be part of the overall picture regarding aircrew suitability.

But you do realise it’s possible to jump into an aircraft and fly it into an airport without being the holder of an ASIC or even a pilot’s licence?

There is no bubble around security controlled aerodromes that is impenetrable to an aircraft flown by a person who has no ASIC or pilot’s licence. People like “terrorists”.

And those people are not going to land and wait for the AFP to turn up and check. They just crash the aircraft into the PM’s taxiing jet.

If you don’t mind the cost and inconvenience of the facade, good for you. Others mind.

Of course that is possible and largely out of our control.

Why not apply due diligence to the part that IS under our control?

What you call “appl[ication] of due diligence to the part this IS under our control” others like me call “a tax on the law abiding”. We are presumed terrorists and spend our time and money to prove that we are not, and those who aren’t “under our control” couldn’t be bothered and don’t need to be if they want to achieve something bad.

Interested to hear what your position is on Blue Cards for persons that work with children and the vulnerable.

Or, do you background check your prospective employees?

Or run a DAMP programme?

All of those presume something too.

Again, false equivalence. Terrorists don’t need to submit themselves to these processes in order to achieve their aims. The ‘lawbreakers paradox’ doesn’t apply to people who are prepared to do anything, irrespective of the cost, monetary or personal, and irrespective of the criminal sanction.

But you need not worry: Pilots continue to be an easy and weakened target for the ‘security’ bureaucracy.

Got news for you Lead, you will not even get a job at a servo these days without a current police check.

Does nothing to prevent someone coming in off the street and robbing the place.

But it does alleviate some of the risk from having an enemy within.

Anyway, answer the question...

The problem, Currawong, is that the ASIC is a legal figleaf for the Government, nothing more. As others have pointed out, it is not an obstacle to terrorist activity unless it is actively policed and that doesn’t happen outside airports that have no GA operations anyway (eg. YMML).

The assumption is that the majority of terrorists are like pedophiles. They will be repeat offenders hence a record check will stop them. The reality is terrorists are “one off” offenders and an ASIC check will not find the really dangerous ones - just the occasional idiot who mouths off in some mosque.

So we are stuck with something that isn’t policed. That isn’t going to identify dangerous terrorists. In other words can’t prevent an attack outside YMML, YSSY, etc. In other words an ineffective waste of time and a huge cost burden on law abiding people.

It is one of a range of “initiatives “ that protect the Government “brand” that have huge, expensive, unjust and counterproductive consequences right across Australian society.

Examples? The entire “domestic violence” industry for starters. Then there is the “consorting” laws that prevent me from ever talking to a black sheep nephew with a view to his rehabilitation because doing that would immediately prevent other relatives in the legal industry from ever talking to me. There are dozens of “catch 22” laws like that and the ASIC is in my opinion just another one.

Your assumption is that the ASIC programme is directed only at terrorism.

It is not.

Check Aviation security relevant offences in your regs.

Of course it has little hope of detecting a clean skin.

But it does go some way towards detecting those that are not.

Would you be happy to see a recently returned Jihadist airside? Or someone just out of a life sentence?

Currawong, stop posting before you make more of a fool of yourself. Leady has already moped the floor with you. Get off the internet and walk it off.

Currawong is entitled to his "Opinions", good grief our whole industry is governed by opinions, our regulations are written in such a way that the opinions of the governors is paramount. Try arguing with an FOI over a safety issue some time, your opinion means nothing to them other than a nuisance they will not tolerate.

Its the way these things get inflicted upon us that rankles.

Someone within the ruling class has a brain fart and puts forward their opinion. Does anyone within the bureaucracy do risk analysis? cost analysis?examine other jurisdictions? Is the proposal fit for purpose?

An ASIC will not in any way prevent a determined terrorist from committing mayhem even with ASIC. There are far easier means at their disposal for committing mayhem than aviation, a forty ton semi into lunchtime crowd for example. Do all truck drivers require an ASIC?

I imagine a cost analysis by a bureaucrat would largely be "what's it going to cost us to implement" against "how much return can we gouge to recover that cost with a tidy profit or an income stream for someone, as they say "a nice little earner".There would be very little consideration of the impact on those they are inflicting their brain fart on.

The country with the largest aviation industry in the world has not been inflicted with an ASIC requirement, even after suffering the most grievous aviation related terrorist act.

I have heard many opinions around the industry on how an ASIC could be made more useful and thus less onerous and perhaps a better tool for those who monitor security. One I heard was to include biometric data on the card with the ability to swipe it to open access to GA ramps at airports, thus recording who and when someone accessed the ramp. The flaw of course would be a stolen ASIC could be used, that risk could be negated by a pin code assigned to each card entered for each swipe.

Then again all of that could be accommodated in a pilots licence with photo ID along with everyones licence details such as ratings etc, rather that the back to the future paper document we have to lug around now.

As far as Currawong's opinion goes I respectfully disagree, the ASIC is not fit for purpose, there are other less onerous and less expensive ways to achieve the allusion of security.

Regarding DAMP.

I have been told more than thirty million dollars was expended to implement it, just for the regulator alone. A lot of money to address a risk that may or may not have existed. Does a DAMP manual of biblical proportions prevent or deter a determined alcoholic pilot? How many alcoholic pilots are out there? In my career I have known many pilots who like a beer, I've never encountered one who flew under the influence, then again I'm probably naive.

I've never quite understood why, other than to add some income to testing facilities, a pre-employment drug and alcohol test is required. To prove what? At that time, on that day someone was sober? I know people can be stupid but it's beyond stupid to turn up for a known test under the influence.

Could just the threat of random testing achieve the same deterrent effect without the complicated extremely expensive DAMP system?