Sunfish..........
Despite your overwhelming logic and evidence all you will get is excuses. The only defence I've seen so far is; -Who's going to pay for it? -Nobody wants to pay for it. |
I will not post any of this here. Been there and done that. If you PM me your email address, I'll lay it all out for you |
I will answer this the best I can.
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10698708)
‘Let me get this straight. ADS-B was rammed down the throat of IFR Aircraft owners and operators, five years(?) in advance of the U.S. mandate. This was done at huge expense, not to mention inconvenience.
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10698708)
Yet now OCTA, you purport to tell the Australian aviation community, that ADS-B was not expected to produce a safety benefit at all, “below 5000ft” and not in class G airspace anyway because Airservices just passes traffic and has no responsibility beyond that.
=13.33px
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10698708)
This is despite the known fact that most mid air incidents happen in the vicinity of the circuit.
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10698708)
I therefore ask the question: Could the Aviation community be justified in forming the impression that CASA and Airservices are total frauds? They have foisted and continue to foist useless technology on the Aviation community that cannot produce a measurable increase in aviation safety at all considering the way it is employed and is never going to?I won’t ask the next question; why were they so keen to do this?
As for ADSB, calling it useless is unjustified. Like any technology, it has limitations. The people relying on it have to know the limitations to know what it can and can’t do. The more appropriate question would be did the benefit justify the cost. When ADSB mandate first happened and ADSB cost $40k or more to fit? My answer would be no. In the next few years as the install cost falls, the technology and system improves, and coverage gets better, absolutely I think ADSB is appropriate. The answer to your final question that you weren’t going to ask but then half a sentence later asked would be I don’t know any better than you do. |
Originally Posted by Hoosten
(Post 10698549)
You might be surprised at my work history, my aviation experience and qualifications.)
Originally Posted by Hoosten
(Post 10698703)
And there we have it. All of the 'holier than thou' hyocrites. Pontificating about name calling and put downs. Good onya mate, that's what they say down there right?
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Sunfish. The answer is ADSB-In.
Work with what we’ve got, as in the system we have. Don’t try to reinvent the wheel. ADSB out has been chosen. Spend your own money to be as safe as you can, because other than your loved one, nobody else really cares if you live or die! The same goes with cars. Buy the biggest most heaviest and safest car with the most airbags, because if you buy a tiny little thing, the laws of physics are not on your side! |
Track Shortener, this may sound strange but I am on your side. When you look at incidents involving CTAF or uncontrolled aerodromes it muddies the water.Benalla and Hotham come to mind. This incident is enroute with active IFR flightplans in the system. I am asking, is it possible for the system to be a bit more active using the data available? Otherwise Squawk7700 is on the money, look after yourself first, put in the tools and maintain your own SA...DTI breaks down with exactly this situation, one or both aircraft actively changing altitude in proximity.
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is it possible for the system to be a bit more active using the data available? |
Thank you for your considered answer OCTA and Squawk. I am debating with myself the advisability of spending about 2k to give me complete ADS-B in and out. I already have the transponder.
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Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, two pilots who have been given traffic on each other could communicate and self separate.
Or does Hoosten and squawk think pilots aren't able to do this? |
iron jayeh , Pilots are capable . But when you’re in an RPT and the traffic is a 200 hour Private Pilot with sweat on his brow in a non-towered environment the risk is real.
ATSB files are full of such incidents . See my previous link. Its a fail-dangerous system , pure and simple. We have been very , very lucky. |
You say pilots are capable, then you say they aren't. I only have about 100 hours and I can stay out if the way. Surely ifr pilots are capable
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Originally Posted by George Glass
(Post 10699378)
iron jayeh , Pilots are capable . But when you’re in an RPT and the traffic is a 200 hour Private Pilot with sweat on his brow in a non-towered environment the risk is real.
ATSB files are full of such incidents . See my previous link. Its a fail-dangerous system , pure and simple. We have been very , very lucky. Also the main solution everyone on here seems to want to propose is class E down to 1200ft. Which is not going to protect you from that VFR pilot. In fact to an extent it may make it harder. The solution for this would be a tower. In most occasions that would be overkill. Iron, yes IFR pilots should be able to separate themselves. At the worst just fall back to putting 1000ft between you and the other guy until you have something else. |
Not just PPL OCTA Aus. I’ll rummage around and see if I can find my copy of the ASIR I lodged when I , commanding an RPT Jet , almost came nose to nose with a light aircraft doing a scenic at Ayers Rock . Thankfully he had his transponder on . I had a chat to him on the ground . He could hardly stand , his knees were shaking so much . Turned out he was simply looking in the wrong place. It was his first professional job. He had a CPL and 300 hours.
Sounds like your are with the Department , OCTA Aus. Its a pity you guys don’t get to spend much time in the jumpseat anymore. Guess it costs too much. I recall AirServices did a review recently on airspace around Ayers Rock and decided , once again , not to instal a tower. A courageous decision . Hope another shoe doesn’t drop. By the way I have other ASIRs like that as well. We have been very , very lucky. Robust systems tolerate failure. Fail-dangerous systems fail to disaster. What sort of system do you think non-controlled CTAFs are OCTAS Aus ? |
So George pilots can't separate themselves?
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I guess it boils down to how many times you want to roll the dice with RPT jets with150 plus pax on board.
AirServices review of airspace around Ayers Rock is a revelation into the way they think. Fortunately , in some cases such reviews have reversed previous idiotic decisions such as the reopening of the tower at Karratha. But its still rolling the dice. Personally I think all non-radar CTAFs servicing RPT jets with over 100 seats should have a tower. Period. But , of course , this is Australia. Its never going to happen. Until.............. |
Re rpt jets, maybe you're right, because they aren't only mixing it with other ifr pilots but people like me in a tecnam.
However that is consistent separate from this incident involving two small ifr aircraft. Again are you saying that given a similar situation, two ifr pilots don't have the knowledge to self separate ? The more cta you put in, the less airspace I can use etc. That then creates what Dick calls roadblocks in the sky. Which then forces other aircraft into unsafe situations. |
Originally Posted by George Glass
(Post 10699430)
I recall AirServices did a review recently on airspace around Ayers Rock and decided , once again , not to instal a tower.
I wish I had a dollar for every pilot who doesn't know the division of responsibilities between the two, and thinks Airservices decides classes of airspace and level of ATS. I take direct debit, or Paypal :) https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/defaul...ember-2018.pdf |
buckshot1777 , you are right . Happy to be corrected. I just did a google search and didn’t pay enough attention to the header.
By the way I don’t think too many Pilots really care much about bureaucratic architecture. |
True. My post was in the interests of directing blame where it is due :)
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Understood
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In the '80s there was a government policy that there should be a tower at every aerodrome with jet RPT services. Those services spread faster than the Tower program! The tower at Gove was built but never manned. Dick Smith took control of the CAA and started the cost benefit analysis of towers resulting in the closure of many including Mt Isa, Wagga, Karratha, Port Hedland (until the Shire offered to pay to keep it open), closure of briefing offices, closure of Flight Service etc. This eventually resulted in development of a structured approach to airspace collision risk analysis, involving ALL sectors of industry. An evolved version of that process is now used by the Office of Airspace Regulation, within CASA but with its own establishing legislation and Ministerial direction.
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Yup
And we have been living with the consequences ever since. |
Originally Posted by iron_jayeh
(Post 10699445)
The more cta you put in, the less airspace I can use etc. That then creates what Dick calls roadblocks in the sky. Which then forces other aircraft into unsafe situations.
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And that in a nutshell is it , OCTA Aus.
The operation was a success but the patient died. The bureaucratic organisation was a triumph but the outcome was a disaster. Could only come from a Public Servant. |
Originally Posted by Vag277
(Post 10699494)
In the '80s there was a government policy that there should be a tower at every aerodrome with jet RPT services. Those services spread faster than the Tower program! The tower at Gove was built but never manned. Dick Smith took control of the CAA and started the cost benefit analysis of towers resulting in the closure of many including Mt Isa, Wagga, Karratha, Port Hedland (until the Shire offered to pay to keep it open), closure of briefing offices, closure of Flight Service etc. This eventually resulted in development of a structured approach to airspace collision risk analysis, involving ALL sectors of industry. An evolved version of that process is now used by the Office of Airspace Regulation, within CASA but with its own establishing legislation and Ministerial direction.
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Originally Posted by iron_jayeh
(Post 10699371)
two pilots who have been given traffic on each other could communicate and self separate.
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Originally Posted by Super Cecil
(Post 10699509)
Was there going to be a tower at Mangalore?
Just before my time though - 60's - early 70's I think. Reintroduction of one since has never arisen. |
Originally Posted by Super Cecil
(Post 10699509)
Was there going to be a tower at Mangalore?
CASA provides the guidance as to when a Tower should be established, unfortunately MNG would be well below it. Of note, it is not Airservices, but CASA (previously OAR) that provides direction about airspace classifications etc, in conjunction with your local RAPAC. If you want to influence change, that's who you should be talking to. |
Still OAR that operates within CASA
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Yet the OAR used to be within Airservices.
Although it may be ostensibly amusing or educational for the bureaucrats in CASA and Airservices to point at each other while the ping pong match of responsibilities leaves the industry in a state of confusion in this case, that approach is unlikely to contribute positively to air safety. |
LB
OAR. has been in CASA for 13 years and ICAO airspace classifications for more than 20 years. The only excuse for confusion is failure to pay attention!j |
Spoken like a true bureaucrat, Vag!
Those who haven’t failed to “pay attention” for the last couple of decades or so know why the airspace regulation hot potato/ticking parcel/stinking turd is in the lap of CASA. |
Not a bureaucrat, just stating facts.
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PM me your email address, the reason being I have absolutely no trust in your good self with your postings thus far. |
We have a saying about that down here in Aus. Its something to do with pots calling kettles a certain colour. |
Or does Hoosten and squawk think pilots aren't able to do this? Appropriate airspace for the density of traffic. |
Ah yes the good old they only have a PPL, they must be incompetent. I remind you that 200 hours is enough to be in the right hand seat of an RPT jet, so that pilot is not inexperienced. Also the main solution everyone on here seems to want to propose is class E down to 1200ft. Which is not going to protect you from that VFR pilot. In fact to an extent it may make it harder. The solution for this would be a tower. In most occasions that would be overkill. |
Coming from another country with similar airspace usage vs coverage issues (Canada, for those wondering), it's been absolutely shocking to find out how silly the airspace is here.
It has been equally silly to see that there isn't such a thing as Mandatory Frequency airports, as there are in Canada As an aside, NavCanada - Canadian equivalent of AirServices - puts those in at airports that are a) busy enough for a plain uncontrolled airport to be unsafe, but b) not busy enough for a tower. Staffed by an FIS (either on-site or remote), you have to have made contact prior to zone entry (typically 5 minutes prior), and have to declare intentions. The argument in Canada is often on whether that thresholds are set too high, but at least you have a minimum level of service. Oh, and for the busier ones, they are typically inside class E airspace (but don't have to be). Something like it seems like it would be a good in-between solution for busier airports that don't meet the bar for a tower, while also mandating some infrastructure is available for FIS/ATC to be able to at least get ADSB data down to ground level... And, from having spoken to a number of people here, seems like that was a thing here for a while, but then it wasn't? |
I think the ultimate problem in Australia is that if you treat pilots like criminal children they will act that way [.
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Originally Posted by Hoosten
(Post 10699665)
uhmmm, what? Your response doesn't make any sense. But then again, none of the others have so why stop. It has been a while since you last posted, I think people thought you got the point and disappeared. It had almost turned into a civilised discussion. While I can’t fully decode what was meant here because it’s not quite written in English, the general idea is they are calling you a hypocrite. Probably something to do with the fact that you were calling someone out for telling you how good they are literally one post after you told everyone how good you were. |
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