Quote:

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I also read the words “free speech” in there of which we are all entitled to.

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In Australia, you are not entitled to 'free speech'

Beg to differ tio, I'd go so far as to say rubbish in fact, you might wish to cast about on Pprune Rotorheads for discussion on the Kobe S-76, S-92 SAR in Ireland for how professional aviators discuss fatal accidents. Then you have the Pelair ditching at Norfolk, Shoreham air show Hunter, AF447, MH370, MH17 etc etc. None of these to be discussed until the coroner makes his/her report? Pprune would collapse for lack of discourse. If you know people involved it is always particularly stressing

Don't expect a report any time soon.

The oldest incident on the ATSB website that the report is still yet to be released is this tragedy:

Collision with terrain involving Cessna 441, VH-XMJ, near Renmark Airport, South Australia, on 30 May 2017.

=13pxThere are older incidents on the ATSB website without final reports, but the release date is either N/A, or the investigation discontinued.

I note with interest that an accident at YLEC last winter that resulted in two deaths has been handed back to the RAus to investigate, which left me gobsmacked.

RA-Aus are more than capable of investigating this crash.

I suggest petty squabbles be fought out via private messages. It would be a shame for this thread to be closed so soon.

Rubbish. This is exactly where it belongs.

Quite apart from anything else, if this sort of discussion was banned on Pprune then the only source of information for the media would be Geoffrey Bloody Thomas.

ATSB said they would help with the investigation if asked. Obviously they weren't.

DF.

Yes indeed it does. I knew CG from my Air BP days. :(

DF.

dont shoot messengers
 

Hey Rubber Duck,

You dont think we can comment about what was an obvious breakdown in the system?
Four pairs of eyes ears four radios, adsb.
I fly that vor every year to renew have 30 renewals.
I fly MTG vor three times a year never have issues with inbound REX rpt get told about them 50 miles out.
So what went wrong with seperation standards?
The route SHT MNG WNG very busy weekdays
lots of ctaf frequencies and yes the radio chatter is loud but you must deal with it and as casa keep harping develope a situational awareness.

I am worried, concerned and need to know what went wrong.
Might be my mistake next, so what was the mistake.
So far at mng had near miss with a croppie, missed by 200 feet
but ifr to ifr collision?
unheard of.
Bendigo guy check captain thousands of hours..
other guy
CFI Tyabb.
thousands of hours experience but it did not save them.

why?

Forget the Rubber Ducks and associates above. They pop up for their sad attempted relevance in these sorts of discussions on a regular basis.

I’m as concerned as you are. But I have little faith in the time it’s going to take to get an answer. 30 Day/12 Month Investigation should be mandated in such series cases. Common in the USA, and even some deprived Asian neighbours. 30 Day Prelim report. Full Report at 12 months. If things are dragging on they pump in more resources to get it done. When these sort of events happen, they are also very quick with the media and public around this. See you in 30 days.

Others adhere to these timeframes because they have solid resources behind the investigations. There is no extensions, the times are the times. We get the answers.

I have recently been involved in a report dating back 5 years. We provided all the details and interviews etc 5 years ago. Between my machine and the other guy it was 500 odd pax between us, so fairly important I thought. We heard nothing until 5 years later when started sending nasty emails to them after ongoing excuses of delays due to no logical reason. The reason appears to be they have no staff. My employer also got nothing. What really got me was they had a estimated time of completion, yet that time had passed by 10 months. The end result was beyond laughable. Nobody learnt anything aside myself and my FO, we came to our own common sense conclusion, but the other guy who stuffed up learnt sweet all and still buzzes around us today.

Expect a report in the year 2022.

We were let down when bureaucracy and cost cutting reduced the airways work load with the killing of flight service and associated services

The CTAF system for airports in busy airspace and the risk of missing radio calls whilst aircraft are on different frequencies was bound to cause a mid-air.

General Aviation is seen as nuisance to Air Services despite the fees we pay. Our airways system is not as safe as it once was.

My thoughts are with everybody who is in mourning right now with this unthinkable accident.

Ultimately some bureaucrats have blood on their hands ..

There's your bull **** quote of the year. You have again used an incident to push some agenda that is completely unrelated. You know virtually nothing.

Might as well blame the chick serving maccas on their way to the airport.

Don’t give them ideas....

There are really only 2 questions that need to be answered:
Were they both IFR?
Were they in class G airspace?

If the answer to both is yes, then this is the Australian system Working As Designed.

We know aircraft in IMC cannot adequately self separate - that is why ATC was invented. We get away with it in Australia most of the time because IFR traffic is relatively low. We have rejected Class E (radar or procedural) designed to prevent this type of accident.
We knew the risk was there. We knew a collision between IFR aircraft in Class G would happen eventually. We know it will happen again eventually if the current system is maintained long enough.

We also know the solution: Class E airspace. Or perhaps these days a technology solution would be appropriate - make some form of TCAS mandatory for IFR aircraft.

A 3 year inquiry might find something the pilots did or didn't do that might have prevented the accident. But that would be a distraction. The real issue is we have IFR without ATC separation, and that means collisions will occur.

One option would be instigated by a body that has millions of dollars in capital, the manpower and the expertise to quickly implement the solution.

The other option will force GA operators and private owners to spend more money (just like ADSB) to upgrade their aircraft in a market where they’re already ripped off. Thus grounding IFR fleets everywhere and further crippling the industry.

Let me guess which way the government will go....

Threw together a 3-D rendering, southerly view, looks like JQF was flying level, AEM descended into him...

Oops-
Can't post images yet, here's a link to a image host-

i.imgurDOTcom/WEo5Bvl.jpg (Replace 'DOT' with period '.' )

That is amazing when you look at it graphically as you have done with the plots.

If there was just two seconds either way with either aircraft, 20 feet different in altitude, then we wouldn't have had this accident.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....77bb894a5c.jpg

The last ADSB data from AEM shows it passing 4250' and descending at 1216'fpm at 190kt gs. The stamp before was at 4500' descending at 832' fpm .
The last ADSB from JQF was level at 4100'. 2 stamps before it was climbing at 1152' passing 4000'

No doubt some of you will be seeing some of the images of the people killed by 3rd world airspace popping up on facebook, the media etc. Ignorance, belligerence, political incompetence and outdated, cheap and nasty airspace now has a human face. Four of them. Take a good look at them. Killed by indifference.

Devastating to see the smiling faces of people who've had a positive impact on those around them. I knew one of them, I knew of two others. and another foreign student going home in a box.

Correct.

And then there’s all those RPT operations in and out of aerodromes in G....

There's five to ten seconds between the timestamped data frames for both A/C. ADS-B Out transmits ~TWO data frames per second. FR24 strips out 95% of the frames to save bandwidth, and because they're not needed for normal everyday plane spotting which is fine. So there's probably five or ten additional data points not showing. It would be nice to have the complete raw data when these incidents occur. Oh well, it is what it is...

The fact that these 2 aircraft crashed while one was descending and the other was climbing is extremely rare (and extremely low probability) most crashes occur because 2 are at the same level like cct height or an inbound point or another is passing through one of these levels. The chance of 2 aircraft being at Circuit height, for example, is fairly high - the change of 2 aircraft being at around 4100ft not so much.

I added the timestamps to the last two data points for both A/C. 2 seconds and 2600 ft. between the two...



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....00bebea565.png

Well said, my concern as well.
Given the ATSB's very thorough report will take a number of years before being released, it might be useful for the knowledgable sirs on this forum to perhaps brain storm the sorts of hazards and risks that can catch out even highly experienced pilots regarding traffic separation in OCTA IFR ops around CTAFs. What sort of situations have we found ourselves in over the years, where we got a bit of a scare regarding traffic separation, and how did we cope, or not cope?

I agree with the quote from andrewr: Most importantly, there is no “standard” for separation of IFR aircraft in Class G airspace. Presumably the “standard” of separation is set by the least experienced pilot.

The Stage 4 AMATS changes of June 1993 here would have brought Class E airspace down to 1,200 feet at Mangalore. In this case, the Seminole might have had to wait on the ground for 3 or 4 minutes for a clearance, but the flight could have been undertaken safely.

I entirely fail to understand how such an accident is possible. What are Airservices doing? Aren't IFR aircraft supposed to be separated from each other by the controllers? Wouldn't both aircraft have appeared on radar? Doesn't that expensive radar system employ conflict alerting? Didn't Australia mandate the fitting of ADS - B equipment to IFR aircraft precisely to ensure this accident couldn't happen? I mean flightradar24.com can see it happening why can't Airservices? Whats the point of ADS - B if Airservices ignores the data it provides? Why are we paying billions to Airservices? For what? If they can't keep two light IFR aircraft apart, how can they keep Qantas and similar large aircraft apart?

Being selfish, what is to stop an IFR aircraft from running into me in my bugsmasher?

Should we have confidence in ATSB? Airservices? CASA?

No, not in Class G airspace. They get traffic information on the other aircraft, and are then responsible for separating themselves.

Qantas and other large aircraft typically operate in class C airspace where ATC do separate the aircraft. However there are places where they operate in Class G and have to provide their own separation. They do have TCAS as a backup.

Assuming you are operating VFR, see and avoid (which is much easier than IFR can't see and avoid) with TCAS as a backup if you have a transponder.

It was class G Airspace, which is uncontrolled... Is it the concept of operating in class G airspace you cant grasp, or is it the meaning of the word "Uncontrolled"? Either way the problem can be solved by either reading AIP or the dictionary.

Quite possibly not, even with ADSB coverage is still far from 100% at low levels. Even with the FR24 feed the departing aircraft only appeared moments before the collision.

Yes, with limitations, such as the aircraft must both be in surveillance coverage, and there are STCA inhibition areas in the vicinity of aerodromes

Because FR24 can get an ADSB feed from some guy sitting in his house with an ADSB receiver and an internet connection. Airservices need an ADSB feed that has integrity and redundancy for surveillance services. This means multiple channels for transferring the data. High speed connections to ensure the data meets the updating requirements. Some method of checking the integrity of the data both from the aircraft and also from the ADSB site. At a guess I suspect an ADSB site would run into the millions. Airservices don't have endless resources.

You operating in accordance with the VFR, see and avoid, alerted see and avoid, traffic displays on the modern EFB's, and while its a crazy idea, maybe some form of ADSB in traffic system for your aircraft? There are lots of options... like any system though its not foolproof.

A question for any controllers out there. If we can see these two aircraft on FR24 I presume they appear on an ATC screen. Would the close proximity of two aircraft set off an automatic alarm for the controller if the aircraft are in class G airspace? Would the same scenario set off an automatic alarm for aircraft in class C/E airspace?

Your assumption isn't correct. The ADSB coverage in FR24 isn't representative of the ADSB coverage that ATC gets. Yes the STCA works in Class G airspace (the ATC system itself doesn't actually know what class of airspace the aircraft is in), however it has its limitations. The STCA has a 90 second look ahead, and its looking for if the aircraft getting to within 4.8NM of each other and 1000ft. It will only work if at least one of the aircraft is coupled up to a flight plan, and will only work if both aircraft are the same type of surveillance (ie ADSB/ADSB, or SSR/SSR, not one ADSB and one SSR). There are STCA inhibition areas around aerodromes, as aircraft are regularly operating very close there and we would constantly get false alerts. Most controllers try and keep an eye on IFR aircraft at an uncontrolled aerodrome and will give a safety alert if the aircraft look like they may collide, however when you are monitoring 1000 square miles of airspace with dozens of aerodromes you cant possibly be watching everything at once. Also operations in class G airspace tend to get very close to each other, so you get used to seeing aircraft in very close proximity.

someone has already answered this

That's very much for your reply.

Ballina, Ayers Rock, Proserpine, Maroochydore when the tower is closed, Hobart when the tower is closed, Launceston when the tower is closed, Avalon when the tower is closed and thats not including any of the airports in WA! At those places TCAS is not a backup, it becomes the primary method of separation if the conditions are IFR and that is assuming there is no VFR scud running who is not using a transponder. If Ballina keeps some of the airline COO's awake at night this accident should make them catatonic with sleep deprivation.

If it is keeping them awake at night due to the risk then I would suggest they cease operating into those places. A tower very well may be a smart idea in those places however no one seems willing to pay for it.....

Its what has been told to them many many times...

Buy the Oz runways “ADSB in” blue tooth receiver and use that. It’s better than nothing I would think.

If I was flying IFR OCTA I’d use one.

From what I saw in my PPL training days, many instructors are using tablets with EFBs.

Correct me if I'm wrong: traffic shown on Ozrunways is not shown on AvPlan if not using additional ADSB hardware. Why is this not in the interest of both program developers?

Commercials.

You can’t rely on it, as it’s simply not safe to do so.

If everyone had ADSB out and a receiver such as a Stratux or Ping into the EFB (for a budget solution), or one of the more expensive Garmin type units, you’ve got half a chance.

These should do the job well enough.....The Dynon DRX looks ok.

https://www.ozrunways.com/store/adsb/