Gawd, Andrew. This has been done to death many times.
VFR aircraft entering Class E do not have to contact Centre. VFR entering and operating in Class E must be able to communicate on the Class E frequency. |
The trap Andrew is at the Southern end of the Avalon airspace where the lower level changes from 2500 to 1500 where you least expect it.
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 10709940)
VFR aircraft entering Class E do not have to contact Centre. VFR entering and operating in Class E must be able to communicate on the Class E frequency.
What is "Continuous 2 way" radio communication? I fly around in Class G listening on Area, but I would not call that 2 way. My understanding of 2 way is that ATC must be able to direct communication to you specifically via your call sign and know you are listening i.e. it requires a check in. That is spelled out explicitly for Class D. Or are different definitions of 2 way communication used for Class E and Class D, and e.g. IFR in Class G? |
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10710510)
The trap Andrew is at the Southern end of the Avalon airspace where the lower level changes from 2500 to 1500 where you least expect it.
A CTA base 1500FT (or thereabouts) step is common adjacent to most CTRs, to contain aircraft in CTA on descent and climbout. Its a matter of reading the charts. Continuous two-way comms for Class E means capable of continuous two-way comms, but don't ask me where the distinction is in AIP. FWIW almost all aircraft call AVV APP transiting the Class E there, probably not a bad thing due to the amount of PTO and IFR training aircraft. |
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10710510)
The trap Andrew is at the Southern end of the Avalon airspace where the lower level changes from 2500 to 1500 where you least expect it.
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Originally Posted by buckshot1777
(Post 10710660)
Continuous two-way comms for Class E means capable of continuous two-way comms, but don't ask me where the distinction is in AIP.
VHF radio required for OPS above 5,000FT AMSL and at aerodromes where carriage and use of radio is required Presumably that also means a radio capable of 2 way comms but the requirement is worded very differently. If you were accused of entering Class E without contacting ATC and establishing 2 way communications what evidence would you use to argue that it wasn't required? |
I think that there should be a brown line along the 8nm Avalon arc, on the VTC, to emphasise that there is a change to the E airspace. There are green and blue lines for G and C/D, why not brown?
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Originally Posted by uncle8
(Post 10710675)
I think that there should be a brown line along the 8nm Avalon arc, on the VTC, to emphasise that there is a change to the E airspace. There are green and blue lines for G and C/D, why not brown?
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Re ‘continuous 2-way comms’ for VFR in E, I spend quite a bit of time VFR in E and have yet to be ‘chipped’ by Centre for not establishing comms before entry. However, I’ve ‘piped up’ when contacted or I consider it may help turn me from ‘unverified’ altitude traffic to ‘verified’. But you could give it a go, Andrew, if you are worried you won’t be able to prove you weren’t required to establish two way comms.
ABC: “Centre this is Alpha Bravo Charlie” Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie” [chirping crickets] Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie?” ABC: “Centre this is Alpha Bravo Charlie” Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie, what do you want?” ABC: “To establish two-way communications”. Centre: “Mission accomplished, Alpha Bravo Charlie”. Re Avalon, ERSA used to say contact APP (or was it TWR?) before transitting the E VFR, but I guess someone pointed out that it’s either E or it isn’t. (Make up your mind OAR....) The charting of the E boundaries (or more accurately, the gaps in and the missing brown lines) are bound to confuse. Why does Point Cook justify a Romeo? |
Originally Posted by Mr Approach
Captain Bloggs - You ask "Did the inventors of IFR Pickups actually think sane pilots would just go VFR, look out the front and hope that she'll be right??"
Yes - that is exactly what they do, see this You Tube video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJcEeKzeb5A> The Premier jet departs uncontrolled airport MIles City VFR and at 9000 feet requests an IFR clearance to Vancouver from Salt Lake (ATC) Centre. In the US it is not called an IFR pick up, as I recall Dick Smith invented that term so that Australians might understand the process. To an American pilot it is an activation of his/her filed IFR flight plan and can take place through a Tower in Class C or D airspace, |
There is of course the airspace label there specifying the LL & UL and the CASA airspace review does mention clarifying the airspace information
https://consultation.casa.gov.au/sta...eview_2019.pdf If/when it goes from E to D I guess the matter will be sorted anyway. The restricted areas at PCK activated by NOTAM are there for the RAAF Museum displays. |
Originally Posted by Lead Balon
ABC: “Centre this is Alpha Bravo Charlie”
Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie” [chirping crickets] Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie?” ABC: “Centre this is Alpha Bravo Charlie” Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie, what do you want?” ABC: “To establish two-way communications”. Centre: “Mission accomplished, Alpha Bravo Charlie”. What about "Centre, Alpha Bravo Charlie, Radio check" "Loud and Clear" "ABC". |
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 10710721)
Seriously??
What about "Centre, Alpha Bravo Charlie, Radio check" "Loud and Clear" "ABC". |
The restricted areas at PCK activated by NOTAM are there for the RAAF Museum displays. ERSA says R330A is “TUE,THU,SUN 0315-0345 (1HR EARLIER HDS) or as amended by NOTAM“. Looks to me like there’s a “default” period which applies unless amended by NOTAM. (Three half-hour displays each week must be exciting!) |
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 10710734)
Is it really “activated” by NOTAM?
ERSA says R330A is “TUE,THU,SUN 0315-0345 (1HR EARLIER HDS) or as amended by NOTAM“. Looks to me like there’s a “default” period which applies unless amended by NOTAM. |
Originally Posted by andrewr
(Post 10710656)
That's what I would have said. But then I looked it up in AIP and it didn't say what I expected and now I don't understand. AIP ENR page 1.4-9 says VFR in Class E requires continuous 2 way communication.
What is "Continuous 2 way" radio communication? I fly around in Class G listening on Area, but I would not call that 2 way. My understanding of 2 way is that ATC must be able to direct communication to you specifically via your call sign and know you are listening i.e. it requires a check in. That is spelled out explicitly for Class D. Or are different definitions of 2 way communication used for Class E and Class D, and e.g. IFR in Class G? |
Originally Posted by andrewr
(Post 10710671)
If you were accused of entering Class E without contacting ATC and establishing 2 way communications what evidence would you use to argue that it wasn't required?
I now call up Avalon App with my intentions, if just for good practice. |
That may have been back in the day when there was a requirement (or maybe a ‘recommendation’) in ERSA to make contact before entering the Avalon E?
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 10710752)
That may have been back in the day when there was a requirement (or maybe a ‘recommendation’) in ERSA to make contact before entering the Avalon E?
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Originally Posted by Stickshift3000
(Post 10710772)
It was 2018...
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