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Who made the decision on the ASIC?
I have been doing some research to try to find out which Minister or which particular bureaucrat came up with the idea of the ASIC. As most know, an equivalent card is not required in the USA – the home of September 11.
Does anyone know which particular individual or group came up with the requirement and whether they did any type of safety case on it? |
You have to hand it to lil Johnny Howard, since they bought in the Asic and all those useful airfield fences that go to 100 metres past the terminals there has not been one Terrorist attack at a local airfield. |
Not that there had ever been a terrorist attack... Howard has a lot to answer for. |
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
(Post 10597144)
I have been doing some research to try to find out which Minister or which particular bureaucrat came up with the idea of the ASIC. As most know, an equivalent card is not required in the USA – the home of September 11.
Does anyone know which particular individual or group came up with the requirement and whether they did any type of safety case on it? That being said, the ASIC requirements and application is a joke. I particularly love the fact that it can’t be used as any official type of ID. |
Hey the ASIC serves atleast one useful purpose, it really satisfies our inherent Australian bootlicking and authority craving desires.
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I'd like to meet the bloke or blokette concerned somewhere private. ASIC is tip of the iceberg. Every time a tradie or a truck driver comes onto a security controlled airport its a total faf requiring the lodgement of a first born child, reams of sensitive information handed over, and a shadow in the form of an ASIC holder who'd rather be somewhere else. Total unmitigated, unnecessary, expensive, intrusive, time and resource wasting CF of biblical proportions. Sick 'em Dick.
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I think it was with the Aviation Security Regulations 2005. John Anderson was the Minister from 1998 to 2005, followed by Warren Truss...
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It to matters none anyway which fool/s dreamed the ASIC up we are stuck with it, the general public feel safe right?? -:( |
It gets even worse IHMO. Have a read of the Av Security Act....slipped in there a couple of years ago? is that yr Flying Licence is now a security document !!!
After 8 months of regurgitating all his past history which they have had for the last 15 years he got his ASIC...but had to go with all the ID stuff he had sent them, to collect it from somewhere else, in person . THREE weeks after it had supposedly been sent . During this long wait he was advised, altho his PPL is all current, that he cannot fly his a/c without an ASIC.!! Good grief !!.. there are thousands of pilots like me without an ASIC because I have no need to go to an airfield where RPT/ Security Sensitive area exists. In his previous battle for an ASIC some lady wrote advising him he could not even TAXY his own aircraft.! If you do an act considered to be "terrorism" or offences against the Act..there goes both yr licence and yr ASIC. So why dont make them/ yr LIcence ASIC one and the same, perpetual until you lose it or give it up. Aww thats right ,....revenue and employment. To get this card is more onerous and time wasting than getting a passport ffs...the ID document you travel overseas with,! And you cant use it as an ID. CAsA people do tho, to identify themselves, why not us??? We really are going down the Nationalist Socialist path...little by little = a lot, our rights and liberties are being eroded away by bureuacraps trying to keep themselves in a job. I had to laugh when given a card by the AFP airport visitor...that said on the back You are the eyes and ears of yr airport, advise any suspicious activity. Thats exactly what the US Govt told aviators there after 9/11. But in the Land of the Free, the citizen aviator doesnt have to go thru all the BS we do. And every TWO years. Those that give up some liberties for a little temporary security , deserve neither liberty or security. B Franklin, was it ? |
To the ASIC I also say Baaa humbug. But as one of the flock of aviators on this country we ALL need to flatten the bureaucratc fence and escape.
Go Dick, yes, but also every other man/ woman and sheep dog. A petition to Parliament? ..where we the people are supposed to be heard. Something has to change. And quick. |
My guess would be a very convincing paper created by a security expert. A great business plan, the “experts” tweak the requirements periodically to boost the profitability of their scheme / scam. |
Originally Posted by roundsounds
(Post 10597209)
My guess would be a very convincing paper created by a security expert. A great business plan, the “experts” tweak the requirements periodically to boost the profitability of their scheme / scam. |
Surely Minister and Cabinet will approve anything if an "expert" slaps the words "safety" and "security" on it enough times.
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What is your alternative? No security checks at all because it offends your precious sensibilities? Was the Etihad incident out of Sydney not enough to make you aware there may be the odd threat out there? The knife attack on a kiwi aircraft a few years back? Threats to the MCG? ANZAC day? just to name a few. Is putting on 4 bars you bought from the pilots shop a free ticket? Please tell me what you think should be done or just waste your time finding out who signed something into being 15 years ago so you can stamp your feet like little toddlers. |
Originally Posted by ozbiggles
(Post 10597289)
Please tell me what you think should be done or just waste your time finding out who signed something into being 15 years ago so you can stamp your feet like little toddlers.
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Ah Yes, Mr Biggles, as an aging toddler it is great to see someone retaining some level of responsibility. However I wonder why the humble passport is no longer a class 'A' document. Finding an 'original' Birth Certificate to prove I is him took me over a month. I am still waiting for my renewal.
Mind you, I have had a nasty security scare. I had a cargo plane loaded with explosives for a mining charter to Port Moresby. They took my yogurt off me (my breakfast) because it was a 'liquid or a gel'. T'was a near thing I tell you. But we arrived safely in the end. |
I never said it wasn’t a pain in the backside...but I think that’s the idea. As for the passport, well the Israelis managed to copy a few Australian passports for ‘spy’ activities a few years back and they are meant to be on our side. |
well the Israelis managed to copy a few Australian passports for ‘spy’ activities a few years back I and many others have already voiced our concerns at what a useless and practically ineffectual document this ASIC is. You have our utmost support Dick in naming and shaming the jobsworth that introduced this bogus security measure which doesn't actually do anything. |
Your alternate? |
Only for non commercial operations, it appears by implication that an AVID will suffice. On the CASA website, which directs you to an ASIC application, there is mention of settling for an AVID if one does not require frequent access to a security controlled airport. By implication, an AVID should be good intermittent access to a security controlled airport.
I have recently resumed flying in Oz after a 30 year hiatus, I only have an AVID but have not tested it at a point of entry airport yet. It will be interesting to see if the jobsworthies with fat belts and room temperature IQs will draw their taser on me. 30 years living and flying all over the world and I have only ever encountered the obsessive security as we have here in China. The USA by contrast is relatively relaxed for crew, for pax - not so much. You have to laugh when somewhere like Thargomindah is listed as a security controlled airport thus requiring an ASIC. There are some seriously intellectually challenged people in positions of power when it comes to “security”. The Youtube video depicting a CASA employee discussing the introduction of the ASIC is pure comedic gold. Well worth a look. |
Oh I don't know, I would have thought that if any country would require such a security measure introduced as a result of 9/11 it would be the US?
But no! Whenever I've had cause to enter an airport either airside or as a passenger in the US, or it be an airport that handles 'jet transport pilots' or GA or some of the bigger airports that handle substantial jet traffic, I haven't had a nazi approach me once. I've had fellas come up and say hello, checking in a friendly way why I'm there or if they could help me. Hell, I even know a bloke that has a hangar for his RV at an International Airport. He swipes a card to get into his hangar from a gate on the opposite side of the terminal. I get over there pretty regularly, I've not had one poor experience with the TSA, not one. And they haven't 'randomly' checked me for explosives once with some drumstick with a chux on the end of it. But I reckon they'd know tout de suite if I was packing one. The ASIC, I faithfully take it every where with me, wishing upon wish that someone will ask me for it at Warnambool. Just one day, it would make it all worthwhile. |
Your alternate? |
Was the Etihad incident out of Sydney not enough to make you aware there may be the odd threat out there? The knife attack on a kiwi aircraft a few years back? Threats to the MCG? ANZAC day? just to name a few. I reckon the Australian agencies have done a pretty good job picking up the vast majority of terrorist plots that have gotten to advanced planning stages. Do you reckon any of these plots have been picked up by any of these agencies checking whether any of the numpties held an ASIC or had applied for one and failed the application? |
Whilst it doesn't answer Dick's specific question as to who in particular suggested or signed off on the introduction of ASICs, this Parliamentary Report provides some info on the various discussions that took place soon thereafter.
By implication, an AVID should be good intermittent access to a security controlled airport FWIW, I once forgot my ASIC and hired an aircraft that was on the GA side of a major international security controlled airport. No one batted and eyelid. :) I know of another instance though where an airport was undergoing a security audit at the time and a small regional airline had one of their pilots land..... without his ASIC. The airport got the NCN from the regulator - go figure. |
Originally Posted by On Track
(Post 10597165)
Not that there had ever been a terrorist attack... Howard has a lot to answer for. |
Originally Posted by vee1-rotate
(Post 10597727)
So do we wait for one, and a potential mass loss of life before we implement something, or......?
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Originally Posted by Cedrik
(Post 10598061)
And implementing an ASIC and 100 metres of fencing at every regional terminal stopped a terrorist attack?
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Any person with a pilot licence in Australia has an ASIO file, any person with a legal firearm or explosives licence in Australia has an ASIO file. How does making pilots apply for another plastic card through a non government private entity make the world a safer place?
If Australia had a decent card licence with photo ID that could be used for security. Ask any pilot what they think of the current licence format. |
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
(Post 10598062)
How do you know it didn’t ? |
In answer to the question of what an ASIC does for security. it acts as a deterrent. The person behind it has been a through a painful process to prove they are who they say they are and have a reason to be where they are and if someone doesn’t have one it acts as a red flag if they are somewhere they shouldn’t be. Again I ask the question what do people complaining about it say should be done instead? Or do we just trust everyone in a pilots uniform wearing gold (or pink) bars? |
As I said Biggles, pilots could use their licence..............................if it was a useful photo card licence instead of the idiotic paper sheet.
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People with malignant intentions will happily go through the painful process of obtaining an ASIC if it allows them unfettered access to carry out whatever it is they intend doing. Forging an ASIC well enough to get past some guy with a big belt and trousers tucked into his boots at a gate surely can’t be all that difficult. Please don’t make the mistake of believing that an ASIC is a silver bullet to save us from terrorists. At best, it’s an easily overcome inconvenience to them. |
I don’t think people quite understand what “security” means. To achieve true security you require defenses in depth - multiple checks with multi factor (ie different) forms of checks. An ASIC on its own is useless. It needs to be checked EVERY TIME by someone with armed immediate backup to provide just one level of defense. The second level is to require a valid reason to be in the security zone at all. The third level is physical security of the zone itself - fences, razor wire, alarms. The ASIC on its own is useless, any idiot with a laser printer and a laminating machine (or better still, screen printing capability) and the imagination to dress the part is in. |
Originally Posted by Sunfish
(Post 10598085)
I don’t think people quite understand what “security” means. To achieve true security you require defenses in depth - multiple checks with multi factor (ie different) forms of checks. An ASIC on its own is useless. It needs to be checked EVERY TIME by someone with armed immediate backup to provide just one level of defense. The second level is to require a valid reason to be in the security zone at all. The third level is physical security of the zone itself - fences, razor wire, alarms. The ASIC on its own is useless, any idiot with a laser printer and a laminating machine (or better still, screen printing capability) and the imagination to dress the part is in. So you’re proposing someone checks the ASIC at the airport and behind that person checking is some kind of armed security officer? Which department will provide such a service and under what regulation or crimes act would that be implemented? Oh and what would their powers of arrest be and what National IT system would they use to check said ASIC holder’s personal records? (The same check that takes a week or two in order to obtain an ASIC) All this talk of arming, fences, razor wire, alarms and other security scary stuff is putting me off wanting to visit the airport for the purposes of work or leisure travel. |
The ASIC on its own is useless, any idiot with a laser printer and a laminating machine (or better still, screen printing capability) and the imagination to dress the part is in. |
Where does it say that a PPL must hold an ASIC?
I understand that the old plastic licence will not return. CASA now looking at a phone app that will include your licence details....! Where is the standardisation that gives guidance to rurual airfield operators as how they facilitate GA ops by pilots that do not hold an ASIC? |
Where is the standardisation that gives guidance to rurual airfield operators as how they facilitate GA ops by pilots that do not hold an ASIC? So after reading the comments here I am wondering what was the purpose of Dick's question? I suppose he could point the finger at the GG of the time who signed off on the Aviation Transport Security Act 2004. What does it matter who played what part? |
Originally Posted by Cedrik
(Post 10598078)
As I said Biggles, pilots could use their licence..............................if it was a useful photo card licence instead of the idiotic paper sheet.
USA? No, plastic but no picture Europe? No, no picture and paper sheet. Canada? No, picture but 24 pages booklet Others? |
Pretty simple really, if you want to have access at a security controlled airport that has screened services - ASIC 24/7. Airports without screened services you can apply Regulation 3.03. The sticking point there though is that many airports specify ASICs at all times regardless. Would be a very interesting test case. |
Cogwheel, has anyone yet been thrown in handcuffs for diverting to an airport when they don't have an ASIC. I think you are looking for an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.
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