Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp
Any news/rumours on the progress of construction and arrangements for the new Qantas Group Pilot Academy at Wellcamp, Toowoomba in conjunction with L3 Commercial Aviation?
The second academy site appears not to have been named at this stage. |
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 10431988)
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Pretty sure L3 have walked away |
Pretty sure L3 have walked away CC |
From the Qantas web site today
Qantas has appointed Flight Training Adelaide (FTA) as the training provider for the Toowoomba site. |
The Qantas Group Pilot Academy FAQs state:
4. If I successfully graduate from the Academy will I be guaranteed a job at Qantas? No. However, after graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s talent selection pool... Have I got that right? |
Christ I hope BDG doesn't end up a training site, it's a painful place now as it is with the yellow perils doing jet circuits & QF already going there!
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Originally Posted by BuzzBox
(Post 10483888)
The Qantas Group Pilot Academy FAQs state:
That seems quite different to the current Virgin scheme, where, if I'm not mistaken, cadets are paid a salary during the course, are 'guaranteed' a job if they pass, and are then bonded to the airline for a period of three years. Have I got that right? With this new program it’s quite vague. There’s little concrete info about what happens on completion of the program. As the first course won’t graduate until the end of next year they still have time to define a more accurate pathway regarding what happens upon graduation. |
Your first line is spot on, as for the rest? Well yes as you mentioned you do have a drinking problem...lolol |
With previous cadetships, jobs weren’t “guaranteed” but it was assumed that if you passed the course to a high standard, didn’t prove yourself to be a knob on the course and the company was recruiting when you graduated that you would be would be on hold for a start date. You really have to wonder why anyone would take the risk on a QF cadetship. Hardly the best value for money flight training going around. |
FTA also train Virgin cadets:
All Cadets are employed directly by Virgin Australia and paid a competitive remuneration package for the duration of the Cadet Training Program. This remuneration package is to assist with FTA accommodation and food costs. Our Cadets will also have access to benefits which include access to the Virgin Australia staff travel program and assistance with obtaining your Commercial Pilot’s Licence. Following successful completion of the Cadet Training Program and meeting all the requirements of the role, you will be offered a permanent role within the Virgin Australia group and will be employed under the applicable pilots’ agreement. With zero progression to Qantas or Jetstar and only vague prospects with QLink the QGPA doesn't offer much |
Originally Posted by cmcmon
(Post 10483139)
From the Qantas web site today
Qantas has appointed Flight Training Adelaide (FTA) as the training provider for the Toowoomba site. |
https://australianaviation.com.au/20...lcamp-academy/
Capacity of 250 cadets per year. Original plan talked up eventual capacity of 500 per year. So, someone check my numbers here. Say 200 cadets doing 150 CPL course initially. That is 30,000 hours. Over one third of which are solo hours but for those an instructor is "supervising" on the ground or contactable by electronic means. They are going to need a lot of instructors. |
"“After graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s pilot talent pool and have access to opportunities with other partners which will help fast track placement in the aviation industry,” Qantas said." Read to me as no direct employment afterwards and a need to go out and gain actual hours somewhere before being able to come back in a GA industry that is being strangled by CASA. I'm pretty sure I've heard this one before, I believe Griffith University had a partnership a while ago with Qantas, Students were interviewed, placed in the "Talent Pool" then told to go out and gain a thousand hours before they were qualified and from memory not a lot of those Pilots ended up actually getting in for various reasons.
As Icarus said, that's a lot of instructors as well, though I think Icarus is a bit light on the numbers, 150hr CPL course, they need ME-IR as well, even with a really well integrated course I'd day say closer to 170hrs on average times 250 students, 2/3 solo 28,050hrs means at least 50 instructors though more like 60 to allow some fat in the system? Has anyone seen any advertisements for the providers looking to increase their numbers? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for something like this, I've long wondered by Qantas and others haven't tried to set this up to have more control over numbers and quality coming in but this feels like more smoke and mirrors to me. |
Originally Posted by Ixixly
(Post 10490900)
"“After graduation, students will automatically join the Qantas Group’s pilot talent pool and have access to opportunities with other partners which will help fast track placement in the aviation industry,” Qantas said." Read to me as no direct employment afterwards and a need to go out and gain actual hours somewhere before being able to come back in a GA industry that is being strangled by CASA. I'm pretty sure I've heard this one before, I believe Griffith University had a partnership a while ago with Qantas, Students were interviewed, placed in the "Talent Pool" then told to go out and gain a thousand hours before they were qualified and from memory not a lot of those Pilots ended up actually getting in for various reasons.
As Icarus said, that's a lot of instructors as well, though I think Icarus is a bit light on the numbers, 150hr CPL course, they need ME-IR as well, even with a really well integrated course I'd day say closer to 170hrs on average times 250 students, 2/3 solo 28,050hrs means at least 50 instructors though more like 60 to allow some fat in the system? Has anyone seen any advertisements for the providers looking to increase their numbers? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for something like this, I've long wondered by Qantas and others haven't tried to set this up to have more control over numbers and quality coming in but this feels like more smoke and mirrors to me. Caveat Emptor. No doubt the glossy brochure has an A380 with gender fluid new hire endorsing the product. The small print will tell a different story, flung to a 'subsidiary' at a non-market IR driven rate, with much accumulated debt over one's head. |
A glossy brochure suggesting one thing, for the fine print to deliver another is an abuse. It is deemed misleading and deceptive conduct.
Therefore, 'applicants' ought consider carefully the fine print before deciding. To give them a job at Qlink ,likely flying a Q400 upon graduation |
Originally Posted by Telfer86
(Post 10490975)
Imagine that , it's just so so terrible
What a terrible abuse of our precious young people To give them a job at Qlink ,likely flying a Q400 upon graduation After 18 months they will only be grossing $95 to $115K , getting staff travel , be able to put in EOIs to join mainline This is reprehensible treatment of young Australians , totally used and abused and we as Australians ought to hang our heads in shame Imagine that having the gall to employ people who hold the uber high qualification of a "year 12" and they have done an entire 54 of training & we are only going to pay $100,000 There will be riots in the streets when the public gets wind of this outrageous treatment of young Australians by a horrible mean corporation |
Imagine that , it's just so so terrible What a terrible abuse of our precious young people To give them a job at Qlink ,likely flying a Q400 upon graduation After 18 months they will only be grossing $95 to $115K , getting staff travel , be able to put in EOIs to join mainline This is reprehensible treatment of young Australians , totally used and abused and we as Australians ought to hang our heads in shame Imagine that having the gall to employ people who hold the uber high qualification of a "year 12" and they have done an entire 54 of training & we are only going to pay $100,000 So-called cadets will just pay alot for flying training and be looking for a gig in GA with everybody else. You would be more competitive going to uni, doing flying training elsewhere, and doing GA, than being taken to the cleaners by this mob. |
The greater risk here is the damage to the flying schools who would normally have trained the 250 / year students. |
In some ways,it is this sort of behaviour by airlines, is indicative of the genesis of the problem; Labour relations.
A transparent and upfront program may help to address what is a growing and increasing issue, but this is not it. |
Do the "cadets" have access to HEC's.? Maybe the Irishman see's the academy as a profit centre.
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Originally Posted by thorn bird
(Post 10491696)
Do the "cadets" have access to HEC's.? Maybe the Irishman see's the academy as a profit centre.
Could be a nice expansion for the value adding 'inclusivity and diversity management' Empire building being what it is, diversity training and inclusivity for the newly 'indentured' cadets could deliver substantial empire building benefits. A nice distraction from actually doing something and a bit of corporate welfare to boot. |
Originally Posted by Rated De
(Post 10491708)
Chairman's lounge memberships, upgrades and soft corruption couldn't quite deliver AUD$ 3billion of taxpayer assistance in CY13, so why not try another angle.
Could be a nice expansion for the value adding 'inclusivity and diversity management' Empire building being what it is, diversity training and inclusivity for the newly 'indentured' cadets could deliver substantial empire building benefits. A nice distraction from actually doing something and a bit of corporate welfare to boot. |
Originally Posted by thorn bird
(Post 10491696)
Do the "cadets" have access to HEC's.? Maybe the Irishman see's the academy as a profit centre.
Yes and yes. The latter a matter of public record. Tootle pip!! |
Whole academy seems pretty useless if there is no "guaranteed employment upon successful completion". That would be the whole purpose of training with a Qantas program. The skippers aviation cadetship that MFS run even seems like a better option when compared to this. :eek:
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Can someone direct me to somewhere where the word "cadet" is even mentioned?
Seems like a lot of assuming going on where QF ever said that they would be training pilots specifically to fill their own seats. And seems more like QF are just sticking their fingers in the training pie. The students wouldn't even come out with trainee first officer mins. 250-500 students shelling out $100,000+ each in Fee HELP - and you can be sure the gov't pays their bills on time - equals a lot of zeros.. of the 22,000 who have registered interest I'd say 21,900 are expecting a job at the end of it. |
Originally Posted by AviationReviewWA
(Post 10491894)
Whole academy seems pretty useless if there is no "guaranteed employment upon successful completion". That would be the whole purpose of training with a Qantas program. The skippers aviation cadetship that MFS run even seems like a better option when compared to this. :eek:
Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it?? Going back to the -50's/60's, as far as I recall, QF cadet schemes, by whatever name, never offered "guaranteed" employment on successful graduation. Tootle pip!! |
Originally Posted by LeadSled
(Post 10492527)
ARWA,
Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it?? Going back to the -50's/60's, as far as I recall, QF cadet schemes, by whatever name, never offered "guaranteed" employment on successful graduation. Tootle pip!! |
Originally Posted by LeadSled
(Post 10492527)
ARWA,
Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it?? Going back to the -50's/60's, as far as I recall, QF cadet schemes, by whatever name, never offered "guaranteed" employment on successful graduation. Tootle pip!! Here, British Airways among other airlines have no problem ensuring a career path for the graduates from their program. |
ARWA, Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it?? Going back to the -50's/60's, as far as I recall, QF cadet schemes, by whatever name, never offered "guaranteed" employment on successful graduation. Tootle pip!! |
Why would Qantas saddle themselves with an employment guarantee when they can fill courses without it?? |
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
(Post 10492784)
My bolding. That remains to be seen doesn't it.
In fact, most Qantas "cadet" graduates were offered job, the exception being, in at least one economic downturn, when all pilot recruiting stopped ---- but all were subsequently offered jobs. Just no "cast iron guarantee". Tootle pip!! |
Why do people expect a guaranteed job at the end of the course? No university course does that once the degree is completed and costs over a 4 year degree will, in total for a "real degree", be as much with no guarantee from anyone? Does aviation suffer from an "entitlement" mind set?
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Costs for a degree are not dissimilar, I agree. What is different is that flying is pay as you go generally. The degree does not have to be paid for until you are gainfully employed and earning over a certain threshold. They are being called cadets for want of a better term, potential pilots, student pilots, pilots in training, take your pick. I just cannot see them attracting anywhere near 250 a year, not even half that. The "expression of interest" that the QF PR machine keeps quoting was easily explained. You could cut that number in half immediately as people with a vague interest in being a pilot and their only commitment was to supply an email address. |
I just cannot see them attracting anywhere near 250 a year, not even half that. The "expression of interest" that the QF PR machine keeps quoting was easily explained. You could cut that number in half immediately as people with a vague interest in being a pilot and their only commitment was to supply an email address. Is a fourteen year old school kid an 'applicant' having expressed an interest? |
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
(Post 10493334)
Costs for a degree are not dissimilar, I agree. What is different is that flying is pay as you go generally. The degree does not have to be paid for until you are gainfully employed and earning over a certain threshold. They are being called cadets for want of a better term, potential pilots, student pilots, pilots in training, take your pick. |
Originally Posted by Vag277
(Post 10493294)
Why do people expect a guaranteed job at the end of the course? No university course does that once the degree is completed and costs over a 4 year degree will, in total for a "real degree", be as much with no guarantee from anyone? Does aviation suffer from an "entitlement" mind set?
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Hi all, wondering if anyone has been through the selection day at the Toowomba site? Any info on the structure of the day and specifics on phase 1. Computer-based testing (CBT), Phase 2. CBT Assessment, Pilot Aptitude Assessment (PILAPT) and Interview and the Flying aptitude testing Phase? I do have the email correspondence from QG so it is more of the 1st hand experience I am seeking?
Thanks in advance. |
Originally Posted by Icarus2001
(Post 10490871)
Capacity of 250 cadets per year. Original plan talked up eventual capacity of 500 per year. So, someone check my numbers here. Say 200 cadets doing 150 CPL course initially. That is 30,000 hours. Over one third of which are solo hours but for those an instructor is "supervising" on the ground or contactable by electronic means. They are going to need a lot of instructors. - Theres only 5 class rooms, and only 2 of those can hold classes of more then 15-20ish people. - They dont have the aircraft... There were multiple days where flights would be cancelled just due to the lack of aircraft, and theres not much room to put any new aircraft. I believe we only have 5 or 6 ME aircraft as well, so having more people would basically hault MEA and MECIR - Weather: Toowoomba definitely does not get 300 days of good weather a year. Winters are wet and rainy, and summers are full of storms. Every course has numerous that fall behind due to it and aircraft availability, with the most recent course only having 15% of the cohort making CPL on time. - Instructors: They're extremely short staffed in QFI's, with more/most leaving in the near future. - Accomodation: Although they say you don't need to live on campus, It's pretty much drilled into you that you should. The closest houses are 20-30 minutes drive. And the current campus only hold 144 people, with more houses being built bringing it to 228. Currently like 90% of students live on campus. As for other posts regarding Qantas and the jobs and stuff, yeah, its pretty vague. Nothing's gauranteed. All the QGPA does is get you direct entry into the Qantas Future Pilot Program unlike people at other universities which have to apply. QFPP consists of 5 modules, with team meetings at each one, followed by quizes/assessments for each one. You get a mentor too, but thats about it. Once you finish all the modules, if you have over 80%, you can continue on to a meeting with QFPP, once you pass that you do a medical and some simulator assessments. Once you pass that you go onto the hold file for Qlink. But all of that can also be achieved at any one of the approved QFPP universities, you just need to apply, its the only difference. Apparently there are talks of creating another Flight instructor pathway, which would consist of students getting their FIR after they graduate, then Instructing at FTA for a minimum amount of time (Unknown how long yet), before being moved to Jetstar on the 787 as an SO, but thats still just rumors. I only picked QGPA because it was quicker then other courses and I could still put it on HECS. Uni courses are all 2 years for an Associates Degree, while this is only 13 months, and you skip all the random university subjects that get added on. Overall though I really wouldn't say its world class training or anything like they like to say. There's alot of management issues and random trash that goes on. There would definitely be better programs out there. |
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