Missed Approach - when to climb?
 

Good airmanship would suggest you should immediately climb to the published missed approach altitude while maintaining track towards the missed approach point and subsequent missed approach track. Never count on breaking visual.

That would be my interpretation. The regs state a "Missed Approach must be executed . . .". And if you read any IAP plate, it usually says something like "Track, climb" or "Track, at XXXXFT turn here/there".

My understanding is that in executing a Missed Approach under 1.10.1 (a) or (b), you must immediately track and climb as directed by the plate. However, I have been told there is nothing in the regs that strictly prohibits you from levelling out in the hope of breaking visual. The logic is that by levelling out, you are not continuing the approach, but rather conducting the Missed Approach by tracking for the MAPt and then climbing where indicated by the plate (dash line).

I guess this isn't an airmanship argument, but rather "if the regs don't say you can't, you can" type argument. I'm just curious what everyone else's opinion is.

Sometimes the initial missed approach alt is below your current alt so you have to carry on down

Absolutely NOT!

Under (a) You must follow the track down to the MDA level, and then climb as directed. It may be a level segment, it may be a direct climb, but you still drive down to that point.

You can go missed at anytime during final segment, so to go missed early and direct climb, you may have issues with driving into the DEP ac, or ac crossing procedures.

In case (b) the assumption in the regulation is that you were on the flightpath, and after the MAP/MSA, the radio aid fails. (note during an instrument approach). If this is the case, you are outside of the parameters of what is on the plate, with the missed approach criteria.

You cannot level off below the MDA before the MAPt, if that is what you are saying, you are outside the criteria to be able to climb and have obstacle protection. Want to meet the Tower?

Going missed below the MDA/DA is balked, and outside criteria. As the question is open to the level below MDA, best to get directions from ATC rather than the plate and hope.

Where the heck are you reading that?

It is plainly stated that you are OUTSIDE the nav tolerance, and are NOT permitted to continue the approach, and definitely not descend to MDA (because you are no longer in the protected area), so pour on the coals and climb out of there, and follow the tracking directions on the plate.

Again, where are you seeing that? The aircraft is probably below the 10nm MSA, but not yet reached the MDA or MAP, and the aid fails or becomes suspect. Again, you cannot be sure where you are, and the only place you want to be is NOT where you are. Make Mister Proach.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - no wonder there people struggling with IFR and IREX.

(Most of) IFR is quite logical - if you KNOW you are safe, proceed; if you can't be SURE that you're safe, go somewhere safe.

On an approach, the only place that you KNOW is safe, is within tolerance on the approach. So if you're out of tolerance (so god knows what's in front of you now), or if you think the aid might be wrong (god knows where you actually are), you go somewhere safe - UP - NOW.

AIP actually makes it clear, but only in one or two places, CASA drafting :ugh:. Go up now, continue tracking to the MAPt, then do the rest of missed approach.

Underfire
No way - don't know what you guys do special over there, but if you do that here, you won't be working for me.

I guess the question is, what does "execute a Missed Approach" prior to the MAPt mean in terms of the regs? We know it means immediately track to the MAPt and carry out the published MA.

But does it also mean immediately begin your climb prior to the MAPt?

My instincts would tell me if I was no longer offered the protection of the steps along the IAP flight path, it would be a good idea to start climbing

The reason I ask is because you might be surprised how others I've spoken to have interpreted the regs.

What's with the large font?

As others have wisely stated, the correct (and only correct) answer is abandon the approach and climb immediately.

Let me simplify it with you with this question:

You are on approach in IMC and you don't have a clue where you are. Yes, go around. But if you don't know where you are, then how the hell are you going to track to the missed approach point? Guess where it is? Descend down to DH/MDA and then perform a go around? Maybe CFIT?

So there you have it, as soon as you're not sure, TOGA and climb! Don't forget power then pitch!

Climb to the Missed Approach Altitude ASAP! You no longer "know here you are" with respect to the procedure tracking requirements, so get the hell outta there.

Underfire appears to be on something.

Do you really think ATC would clear an aircraft for an approach and not consider that said aeroplane might give the approach away and climb to the Missed Approach Altitude at any point?

Give us an example of where an aeroplane doing a missed approach could conflict with a departing aircraft.

Quite obviously that is not what he is saying.

Simplicity and don't hit the hard bits which might be to either side of the prescribed tracking details .. Centaurus has been missing the hard bits for a very long time ... I would heed his counsel. Likewise Ascend Charlie and a couple of other posters.

My understanding is that in executing a Missed Approach under 1.10.1 (a) or (b), you must immediately track and climb as directed by the plate.

.. providing you are intending to maintain the prescribed plate tracking throughout.

However, I have been told there is nothing in the regs that strictly prohibits you from levelling out in the hope of breaking visual

The OP's question relates to a situation where the approach has been screwed up for one reason or another .. unless you can positively maintain the prescribed track you are entertaining a CFIT note in the daily papers. Some approaches wend their way amongst rocky bits ... the question poses the problem that you have lost your way.

"if the regs don't say you can't, you can"

The Regs prescribe minimum standards ... commonsense ought to require something better, one thinks ?

Sometimes the initial missed approach alt is below your current alt so you have to carry on down

You don't have an instrument rating, do you ? Unless you are on the prescribed track, etc., you are not permitted to "carry on down". I do hope that your comment was tongue in cheek

You can go missed at anytime during final segment, so to go missed early and direct climb, you may have issues with driving into the DEP ac, or ac crossing procedures.

Below MSA you must stay on the prescribed track (think about it .. rocky bits to the sides ?) while climbing. Unless you know where you are, you follow the missed right there and then ... climb while tracking to the MAPt and then the prescribed missed approach tracking details.

Separation is a normal management thing so the radio is your friend.

You can give the approach away at any time. For instance, during my initial GA rating test I screwed up the DME letdown and gave it away early, climbed back up and did it right second time around. The DCA examiner (who was a bit of a pedantic chap, if rather affable) wasn't in the least bit concerned. I suspect that, had I tried to salvage it first time around, we might have been going back for a debrief and some more training.

Main thing is .. if you are below the prescribed safe altitudes, one must treat it as a critical terrain avoidance issue.

In case (b) the assumption in the regulation is that you were on the flightpath, and after the MAP/MSA, the radio aid fails

Very well behaved radios in your machine, I would venture.

Reminds me of a tale from one of the initial Ansett DC9 endorsement chaps in the States. The IP pulled an engine on the first takeoff ... when my colleague raised a concern later about this .. the IP observed .. "Well, son, we don't know just when the engine is going to fail over here .."

So what do you suggest you might do if the aid has the temerity to fail during the initial parts of the approach ?

You cannot level off below the MDA before the MAPt, if that is what you are saying, you are outside the criteria to be able to climb and have obstacle protection

So long as you are maintaining the prescribed track and observing minimum altitudes, there is no problem with flying level or climbing ... the obstacle protection is lateral.

best to get directions from ATC rather than the plate and hope

Hope should be the province of religious folk, not pilots. Knowing is better than hoping. What use is ATC unless they have radar data to assist in terrain separation ?

if you KNOW you are safe, proceed; if you can't be SURE that you're safe, go somewhere safe.

Now, that's not a bad attitude, methinks.

Just occasionally you come across a thread on Pprune that you can't believe is an actual discussion and well.. here we are.

I'd go along with that ..

The reason I ask is because you might be surprised how others I've spoken to have interpreted the regs.

The Regs are all well and good .. but sound risk management, if that suggests something more conservative ... is the way to go. Anyway, the only folk who are able to interpret the Regs are the legal eagles. The rest of us use them as a starting point for sensible risk management decision making.

You are on approach in IMC and you don't have a clue where you are. Yes, go around. But if you don't know where you are, then how the hell are you going to track to the missed approach point?

Some places overseas, due to surrounding mountains, you can't do your own thing .. you have to do whatever you can to maximise the probability that you are remaining within the protected areas .. called DR as I recall. Certainly, we are rather fortunate in Oz with terrain .. but, as more than a few over the years have proved ... treat the risks with abandon and the outcome may not be pretty.

There are very few absolute guarantees in flying .. but heaps of risk management decision making ie commonsense.

Sorry, browser settings didn't show it. Fixed now, hopefully.
Well yes. How do you track to a VOR if your radio nav aid fails and you only have one? You could try the GPS, I guess, but are you going to start mucking around with it at such a critical time (assuming it wasn't already tuned to the VOR in this example)?

Not a bad idea, don't need my glasses... :D

If some of those posting on PPRuNe actually get a job in the airlines & then get a command, I think it will be time to start catching the train! Unbelievable!

I'm assuming that most are getting concerned about this advice - I'm hoping that we are misinterpreting this advice as it's not completely clear (to me!) what he is saying - is underfire suggesting to continue descent?

If someone needs a regulatory reference to tell them to climb if the navaid is dodgy or they're off track, they should hand their licence back in.

As the OP has requested a reference though, try looking at CAR 178. Amazing how many IFR pilots are not aware of this regulation, or cannot apply it correctly.

If you're not flying in accordance with an IAL (that requires flying within specified tolerances using serviceable navaid), and none of the other circumstances in 178(4) apply, then you must fly not below a published or calculated LSALT - which means climb immediately.

In addition, there are some plates like YSRI RWY 28 ILS that have notes like:

This indicates they are expecting you to climb if you initiate missed approach before the missed approach point, but just don't want you to go all the way to 3,300 until after the missed approach point, presumably due overlying airspace. But the point is they know you'll climb straight away.

jesus wept.

Maybe I need to qualify what is being said: that if there are no known obstacles (you're out bush etc), there is nothing in the regs to prevent the option of leveling out while tracking to the MAPt (presumably dead reckoning, as your radio aid/navaid has failed, or you're out of tolerance to the point you're not quite sure where you are) in the hope of breaking visual. Not a blanket action in any approach, but rather a legal option based on regulatory ambiguity and circumstance.

Take CAR 178 for example:

(4)An aircraft may be flown along a route segment at a height less than the height that is applicable under subregulation (1) or (2):
(b) (ii) in accordance with any instructions published in AIP; or
(c) during an authorised instrument departure procedure or authorised instrument approach procedure

A missed approach is an authorised instrument approach procedure. And I agree, some plates do explicitly direct you to climb before the MAPt or other point. But most just say "Track, climb, turn" etc.

Common sense may tell you to climb immediately, but the regs don't. As far as I can tell. Which is the reason for this thread.

Maybe I need to qualify what is being said: that if there are no known obstacles (you're out bush etc), there is nothing in the regs to prevent the option of leveling out while tracking to the MAPt (presumably dead reckoning, as your radio aid/navaid has failed, or you're out of tolerance to the point you're not quite sure where you are) in the hope of breaking visual......

This passage may well be the scariest thing I have ever read on here. You seem hell bent on finding a legal way to kill yourself.
Climb as high as you can, as quickly as you can, ANY time you are uncertain of you navaids or position.

You've made the decision to go missed, so go missed. What is one of the instructions in any missed approach procedure? Climb to xxxx. So climb.

Don't stay level "in hope of getting visual", that's just stupid.

The MDA or DA is only valid assuming you are on track. If you are not on track, e.g., out of tolerance or navaid failed, then you are no longer established on the approach and the MDA/DA is no longer valid for your position. You are now in a position where you no longer have assured obstacle clearance. You climb straight away because you must get clear of the ground. You track to the MAPT and then track via the missed approach so that you follow the ground track the procedure designs came up with to keep you clear of hills, restricted areas etc.

If it doesn't specifically say in the regs that you must climb immediately it's because nobody ever conceived that anyone would think otherwise.

If it was ok to do as you suggest then the MSA would allow it.

LOL! I'm not trying to kill myself. If you read the start of the thread, the proposition was put that depending on how you interpret the term "execute a missed approach" (as per the regs) it is conceivable you could level out track to the MAPt and then start your climb in the hope of breaking visual.

I'm not arguing whether it is the right thing to do or not (I've already stated my opinion on the matter), I'm just asking how others interpret the regs and if there are, in fact, any regs that stipulate you must climb immediately.

Call it a hypothetically argument, if you like - though I have heard opinions from both sides.

Well, some have thought otherwise. But I agree with everything else you've written.

If they're hoping to break visual then they're not flying a missed approach. Once you start flying the missed approach, you've stopped "hoping to break visual".

Maintaining altitude and hoping to break visual is just continuing the approach.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm not. And if you read my posts, that's pretty obvious. I put a proposition, and I asked for opinions on the regs. But this being the prune, I expected to get more than I asked for . . . and I wasn't wrong. :}

Sometimes the initial missed approach alt is below your current alt so you have to carry on down

You don't have an instrument rating, do you ? Unless you are on the prescribed track, etc., you are not permitted to "carry on down". I do hope that your comment was tongue in cheek

Didn't read the original question properly!
We did some sim training, on ils with initial miss app alt 1500'
Given go around from tower about 1800'
This was to get us to understand how to get aircraft out of ils mode so it would level at 1500' to a defined dme on the plate, then continue the misap procedure.

We did know where we were though

What happens if, for example, you go out of tolerance/the aid fails, you start to conduct the MA (climb, track) and you suddenly break visual? Are you not now legally entitled to conduct a visual approach (circling or straight in, assuming you're not too high)? I believe that's where this whole idea stems from . .

GA single or multi.

What the hell happened to the Professional in PPRUNE?

This does bring up all sorts of issues, especially the guidance for immediate climb when you dont know where you are?!?!

What does it say about the Missed Approach Point? On an instrument approach, does it say you should, or you SHALL use MAPt as the beginning of a Missed Approach?
How many Missed Approach Points are shown on the plate?

Where does a missed approach procedure and guidance begin? Does it begin just after the the FAF, or just anyplace on the glideslope? It begins at the MAPt. The plates are very clear when you begin climb. Not before, not after. If you need to climb after, you are out of the parameters of the prescribed missed approach procedure.

Bloggs, even at the all hallowed MEL, there have been many incidents where the ac on GA have encrouched on ac on DEP from RW16. I suppose you dont remember the 744 on DEP from RW16, and the 322 that was on final to RW16, did a GA and ran up the backside of the 744? (This is why many plates worldwide, have you turn before the end of the runway)
MEL has crossing procedures that are perpendicular to RW16/34. GA, and simply pull up may also cause a conflict and loss of sep.
As search of the library with incidents involving departing aircraft with aircraft on GA shows over 300 reported loss of seperation incidents since 2000.

This is the benefit of having a coded missed approach, everything has been sorted out. There are no coded missed approach tracks that begin anywhere other that the DA/MDA. You want to go missed, you engage, it will track the ac down to the waypoint, and begin the missed approach procedure, just like anyone should when deciding to go missed. Pull up and pray when you dont know where you are?

What happens if, for example, you go out of tolerance/the aid fails, you start to conduct the MA (climb, track) and you suddenly break visual? Are you not now legally entitled to conduct a visual approach (circling or straight in, assuming you're not too high)? I believe that's where this whole idea stems from . .

Once you begin the missed approach the first thing you do is re-configure the aircraft. Therefore you would no longer meet the stableised approach criteria. To me there is no chance of a straight in landing.... join the circuit and continue VMC? That's an airmanship question.

Terminal section says that if a missed approach is conducted from circling, It is assumed you will initiate a climbing turn towards the aid. Missed approach tracking commences at the missed approach point, climbing up to lowest safe commences as soon as you decide to discontinue the approach. If altitude restrictions apply for the climb obviously the need to be complied with. But there is absolutely no requirement to continue down to DA/MDA before climbing.

Can you let us all know who you fly for? Then we can add that organisation to the avoid list.

The instructions for the missed approach may be assigned by air traffic control (ATC) prior to the clearance for the approach. If ATC has not issued specific instructions prior to the approach and a missed approach is executed, the pilot must follow the (default) missed approach procedure specified for the approach.

Is the plate a published missed approach procedure?

The literal approach is to do what the plate states and shows to do for a missed approach. It is that simple.

Slezy,
KLAX ILS or LOC RWY 24R
FAF = 2,200 ft
MA ALT = 2,000 ft
It seems you're not quite the oracle yet.

edit
As per the OP.
Only in the context of a non-precision approach, it makes for an interesting discussion.

You don't continue descending though, as you stated in your first post, you climb straight away while tracking to the MAPT, then you commence tracking via the procedure.

Slezy, there is nothing wrong with what Trent is saying. If the missed approach altitude is below the altitude you go missed at, then you need to descend to it. Otherwise what altitude would you climb to? 5000? 6000? Some other random number?

Underfire, AIP ENR 1.5 2.6.3 specifically allows climb before the MAPT. This paragraph is basically stating that if you begin your climb before the MAPT you must continue to the MAPT and then follow the procedure; or in other words don't follow the lateral tracking instructions from prior to the MAPT.


As for traffic at MEL etc? Just say your callsign, "going around" and what you are doing straight away (ie prune 123 going around climbing 5000", let ATC do the rest. If you are coming up the clacker of another plane, they'll probably tell you to turn- "or as otherwise directed by ATC", remember that?


Here's another thing to think about. What is the go around/missed approach procedure in your aircraft manual? Does it tell you to stay level or descend? No, it tells you to climb.


I think all the smart people who know what they are doing (and are safe operators) are all saying CLIMB, don't remain level and hope.

Yep, fair call.

I mis-read what was written.

Sorry.

So what happens on 34R at SYD then? Assuming you go around 4 miles out, do you track to the MAP before turning or do you turn at 600'?