Unintended 457 consequences could ground airlines
 

In a comment piece in this morning’s aviation section in The Australian by Mike Higgins, Chief Executive of the Regional Aviation Association, Mike objects to the change in 457 visas which, it appears, will now exclude pilots and avionics engineers totally, while airframe and engine engineers are only eligible for temporary visas without any access to residency.

Can someone put me in the picture here? By the look of it there is a real shortage of pilots locally. Does that mean we solve that problem by having to bring in pilots from overseas? Is there any way of training more pilots in a short time here, or is that not possible?

Will this mean in the years to come that even airlines like Qantas will be forced to have Chinese and other nationals as pilots?

I would love to have some really good comments on this.

There's no shortage of pilots.

What there is, is a shortage of pilots prepared to work for the wages and conditions that are on offer.

What De_Flieger said.:ok:

A company can cry "no pilots, we need 457s" when what they mean is :
" there are no pilots with X number of hours on Y type aircraft prepared to work for $Z."

Plenty of pilots here willing to be endorsed on any aircraft type they wish to use, for a reasonable pay and conditions.

If the companies get their way in reducing conditions then in the future I can see Australia importing pilots while ours work in China for the dollars! :ugh:

I see Sydney Seaplanes is also making noise ....

"Seaplane Owner Will Struggle"

There has never ever been a shortage of pilots in Australia, that's for sure. But the ridiculously high costs involved with learning to fly frightens people away. For example the costs of an MCC course typically $6000 is phenomenal and that is for a few days of lectures and sitting in a simulator learning how to read a checklist, talking to a simulated ATC, a simulated cabin crew, simulated ground company etc. In other words play acting. The MCC course was never a previous requirement. You learned on the job within a few days of flying in an airline. But $6000 up front is a real hit.

Have a look at all the new flying instructors hanging around flying schools waiting for a new prospective student to walk through the door. No doubt they would like to get into Regional Airlines. But those airlines copy the main airlines with exhaustive aptitude tests that have no real bearing on flying an aeroplane. Those aptitude tests knock many young pilots out even though they may good flying ability. And they even have to pay money to do the aptitude tests. Do the RAAF charge prospective candidates to undergo their aptitude tests. No way.
It is also certain that the Part 61 introduction has greatly increased the costs of obtaining pilot licences. Yet even so there is no shortage of qualified pilots in Australia. Ask a major airline like Qantas how many applications they have on their books. Probably a thousand or more?

Flying seaplanes sounds like a thoroughly enjoyable job, and I've looked into getting my seaplane endorsement. The problem is, every single job ad I have seen for seaplane operators requires a couple of hundred hours on type and a few hundred water landings.

That, and most likely a wage for line pilots (not the Chief Pilot or business owner) that means that a career in seaplanes ensures you can never afford a house in Sydney and will be renting the rest of your life, with all the follow-on effects of housing insecurity and relying on a pension in retirement, make it a much less appealing proposition. Sydney? A median house price somewhere around a million dollars, with a commute taking up a couple of hours of every day, because you certainly can't afford to rent long-term close to the harbour on a GA-type wage, means you'll add a couple of hours onto every work day and then slump face first into your two minute noodles from exhaustion every night. Or do a degree in Commerce, work at a bank 5 days a week and have your evenings free, and you can afford to hire someone to fly you around the harbour in a seaplane whenever you see fit - you can even drink champagne while someone else does the work!

To answer your question, one has to ask another question... why are regional airline pilots in Australia packing up and dragging their family to the sandpit to work for Emirates?

Therein lies your answer, Dick.

+1 for De Flieger, who put it so accurately and succinctly.

Beancounters with short arms and long pockets
 

In days gone by, organisations would put resources and funds into training people. These days it is a simply a rush to import someone who has already been trained elsewhere, rather than investing in personnel training. Aviation is one of the worst industries in this regard. There are plenty of junior pilots and pilot aspirants who would dearly like to be trained, but the beancounters with short arms and long pockets rule the day and insist on self-funded training. It is time that those organisations that rely on 457 visas to get cheap overseas employees actually change their philosophy and invest in training Aussies, rather than bleating about government policy.

Seabreeze

Float flying certainly is specialised, however I think the available supply of experienced foreign float pilots might dry up (no pun intended) whether 457 visas are possible or not. Canada and the US probably have the greatest supply of float pilots, however those pilots now have plenty of employment options close to home, in both landplanes and seaplanes.

Whilst I am not very familiar with Australian float operators, those operating elsewhere in the country seem to find a way to keep their aircraft flying. Is this just a Sydney thing?

Go to NW Western Australia you will meet many pilots trying to live the dream. Movement in the industry is slow. Maybe airlines want fully trained pilots and don't want to spend on training.

The backbone of aviation is a healthy GA industry.

It is flying schools turning out new pilots, young people deciding they want to fly and working through a CPL, heading out to try and get a job with at least the incentive of hearing of a previous crop of new CPLs getting a job up north or with a good chance to build hours instructing because there is a need for instructors.

It is the maintenance operators who can make a buck because there are enough aircraft flying that need to be kept airworthy.

It is folks wanting a PPL and can afford to do it, who keep the schools going, giving those new CPLs with a grade 3 instructor rating a chance to get their hours and experience up and willing to slog it out to get a leg in the game. And some of those PPLs thinking... maybe I could get a CPL and do this for a living?

It is charter operators who have enough work to pick up CPLs with a bit of experience and are hungry to step up.

It is enthusiasts restoring old planes and flying them and haunting the nooks and crannies of airports across the country but who inspire youngsters who think... what a cool thing to do! - go flying!

It is country towns having an aerodrome that employs a LAME or two and a little flying school and some Ag operators and with luck a scheduled passenger service all that bring some money into the community.

It is airlines who can draw on the pool of CPLs who have done their time in GA and are hungry to step up.

It is a whole ecosystem. Cut out bits of it and it gets sick. It is sick now.

My recollection was yes, there was always either a boom or bust in the numbers of pilots needed to fill the posts at the higher end of the food chain but hey, if you could afford to hang around during the lean times and build hours in the less glamorous parts of the industry, your chance would come.

The difference back then (I believe) was the cost. I don't know how young people can afford to get a CPL and pay their rent at the same time. Particularly if there is not a guarantee of a job at the end.

As less new blood comes in, the whole ecosystem dies. Flying schools close up. Look at how many schools at Bankstown today compared to 20 years ago. Flying schools disappear. Smaller maintenance operations start to disappear. Operating costs go up as they compete over less work. Charter gets expensive. Jobs get fewer and the ecosystem gets sicker.

When the median house price in Sydney is heading towards a million bucks :eek:, why, as a young person, get a massive debt (the money for a CPL now could've bought you a house 20 years ago) to earn a CPL where your career path is anything but a massive gamble, where you may never make enough money in GA to pay it back so pay it back doing a job where at least you get paid a decent wage?

So when the top end of the food chain needs new pilots there is nothing much in GA anymore so they either look overseas or train up green newbies who can play computer games and program a GPS under the eyes of older folks who worked their way up from C152s at the bottom... until even the captains will be computer game players who wouldn't know what carburetor heat was if it burnt them on the bum.

How to reverse this? How to keep GA alive? Wish I knew but it is not simply a matter of "make medicals easier" or "cut costs" or "cut red tape" or "pay pilots more" or just whinging.

A more lenient medical and less red tape aren't going to reverse that. May help a bit but it is not going to save GA on its own. Hard to pay pilots more when you are struggling to pay the hanger fees.

30 years ago I could afford to rent my house and pay for hours to get a licence with an average job and a little bit of money I had saved. I also could rock up to Bankstown briefing office and chat with a meteorologist and go over the NOTAMS in the briefing office and have someone check my flight plan and suggest maybe I plan a different route. I am not saying I want that level of service back again but now 30 years later we pay our way, get less and it costs more.

And so flying schools turn into Bunnings and Direct Factory Outlets and weeds build up under the old aircraft sitting on the grass (where it remains) in what was once a busy and humming aerodrome that once had bright eyed young new blood walking in the door every day and champing at the bit to become a pilot (or LAME or ATPL or instructor or buy their own plane or run a flying school or dare to try and set up a regional air service and maybe go broke but have a go).

:(

Like I said - how to reverse this? How to keep GA alive? Wish I knew. Tired of whinging. Wouldn't it be great if we could get it back again?

here is 99% of the problem. or, if training wasnt so bloody expensive here...

what ever happened to the idea of investing in staff, and providing training?

i even offered to work for Sydney Seaplanes for min 5 years if they will pay for training to get me up to speed. like a good old fashioned apprenticeship.

I echo what most people in here are saying, it's Employers unwillingness to invest in Training. I understand that training people and investing in their training costs money and involves risks, but there are ways of mitigating that, get people to sign a contract that says they agree that if they leave within a year or 2 they are required to pay back training costs at a pro rata rate! That way no one is forced to pay upfront, it keeps people in the job for a couple of years and covers the Employer as well.

Also paying Pilots properly would be excellent, the training is so damned expensive yet the EBA for a SE Pilot of a normal C206 or Airvan for example is just shy of $43,000 a year? Bump that up by a couple of grand I'd say and start cutting the red tape and overheads generated by CASA for GA Operators to help adjust for it and you'll start turning the tide I'd say.

Surely CASA should be audited and have it figured out how much it costs for a GA Operator on Average, find where those costs are coming from and figure out how they can be reduced. This should be simple for them to justify, they're promoting GA which means Pilots are able to get more experience before moving on and are paid better which means no longer having to work second jobs and flying with their eyeballs hanging out their heads just to make ends meet!!

"The backbone of aviation is a healthy GA industry"

Never have truer words been said on this site!

Trust the CASA board will put on a new chief who has the ability and experience to reduce all the unnecessary costs. Yet I here that a suitable person has been rejected by the board!

I did several years on seaplanes and when I started my full pay began on the day I commenced work. This was also the same day my (provided) seaplane training started. My boss did the same for subsequent seaplane pilots.

If Sydney Seaplanes aren't prepared to do this then they don't deserve 457 pilots. Flying a Beaver is not rocket science and there are plenty of boat savvy pilots around.

So who f@rked who first?

Was it the pilot who f@rked his pilot mate flying for free, an employer saw this f@rking going on and said 'f@rk this, these dickheads will fly free, why pay them?'

Or was it the jetstars & virgins that started out charging for endorsements, are they f@rking pilots by doing this or is it the pilot who agreed to pay for it, f@rking every pilot that came behind them?

Awesome, you're not paying for your endorsement anymore...........but you're on reduced wages for how many years? Proudly, the pilot can stand up and say indignantly 'I didn't pay for my endorsement, not me'

Or was it the pilot who f@rked the employer who said 'you pay the endorsement costs and I'll give you 5 years' then f@rked off after 18 months knowing that bonds can't be legally enforced. That's all right, indignantly the pilot can say 'I didn't do anything illegal' knowing full well they'd f@rk off for a better gig.

I got a good mate who spent 10 years building experience, working towards an airline job. It got too much for him, working in a ****hole while his wife and child were in another city, supporting the decisions he made. Whenever a Qantas or virgin eba comes up he says:

'All of them can get f@rked, I hope they get a pay cut. They came through GA, didn't work for the award, f@rked it up for everyone else behind them, now they're on 300k, whinging about not keeping pace with inflation, they couldn't give a f@rk when my mate gets killed at Horn Island in a piece of **** that they probably flew and survived'

He actually thinks it's you who f@rked GA.

Fact is, GA is pretty putrid. Everyone whinges but won't get off their arse and do anything about it.

Another fact is, GA is where the f@rking starts in the aviation industry, so that's where it's gunna stop if it ever will?

Thoughts Dick?

An appropriate description of the industry. But one or two pilots jacking up and refusing to be paid any less than the award means sweet FA in the big scheme of things, because there's a half-dozen waiting in the wings who will quite happily do so. It is too widespread, too entrenched and too far gone for anything to be done about it now.

Best bit of advice for someone who wants to fly for a living: don't...find a job that pays better, has you home most nights, and fly for fun. The stress on your family is not worth it in the long run, and you will likely set yourself up much better in life without a $70K debt and a $40,000 income. If that screws over the airlines, they have only themselves to blame.

We are but our own worst enemies as we love what we do...

Ixixly wrote:-
A perspective on this, is that it is roughly inline with what a 4th year apprentice Panel Beater or Spray painter would expect to earn.
Or if you dig deeper into the wages regs, the minimum adult wage.

Dick CASA costs are small compared to the cost of operating at one of the privatised airports, costs which are not only direct in rents, landing fees etc but also indirect, passed on by maintenance organisations etc as they have massive rents to pay. Pus of course the location specific charging by Airservices.

If you could use your considerable influence to lobby on behalf of operators who are at the mercy of greedy developers that would be awesome however as successive ministers of both parties have let them get away with this gouging for so long now I doubt anything could be done now.

I don't feel any sympathy for the operators complaining about the 457 issue.

Clare Prop actually brings up a really big point there, the major training organisations are at the major GA Airports, Bankstown, Archerfield, Jandakot etc... and with developers being put in control of these the rents being jacked up it has heavily impacted on the cost of training and there really is absolutely nothing that can be done about this I fear!

457 unintended consequences.....

The tightening it up making it harder for employers? YAY!!!!!!

The whole 457 scheme when coupled with EBA suck eggs big time.

As most of you know I am a panel beater by trade, former shop owner etc. Life choices in the last 12 months found me living and working in Mackay. Just before xmass, i decided to join the team at a local shop that is part of an almost national panel shop chain. This particular chain is a MAJOR employer of 457 guys.

I can tell you in no uncertain terms, that these 457 blokes in regional area's are doing it hard.

I felt i was being underpaid for my skills and knowledge. The managers opinion was that the foreman, could cover any missing skills in the 457's, and I was there merely to back him up. The shop was busy and understaffed. During a discussion about hiring, i mentioned I knew some people that would take the pay hit for the lifestyle.
The manager took the time to show me the figures as to why aussies were not viable.
To pay the required money for 3 aussies, he could have 5 457's, and that was based on lower money than i could earn in melbourne.

In melbourne, i can easily draw 1300 per week in hand. In mackay......or any of this companies shops, if you are drawing 900 in hand, you are pressured heavily and made to feel that you are overpaid.

I knew i was drawing a short straw when i took the job, but had the view that the best way to understand the dragon is to stare it in the eyes.

457's are kind of forced to work in regional area's, as it makes it easier for them to get approvals, but due to the sponsorship nature of the visa, allows the employers to drive down wages. They lose their sponsor, they lose their visa.

$800 for a qualified beater each week...GTFO, some of these guys are better than some aussie tradies.....easily get 1500 in melbourne.

I digress...

Jaz, my first job out of school was a panel beating apprenticeship, got the ticket then walked. I did other things for a bit, then returned to it for a 12 month stint to save for a backpacking trip. In '89 in Sydney I was pulling about $1700 a week, fixing smash during normal hours and a days overtime bogging up rust for rego checks.

Is that how far the conditions have deteriorated??

Ok Dick, you started it - hands up if you have a foreigner and not an Australian flying your aircraft.

I have seen too many of our wealthy Australians and our airlines hire foreigners because locals wont or cant afford to take their conditions while a foreigner will see it as a chance to survive in paradise for x years while taking it in the jacksy in order to get permanent residency and then they scarper.

Yes Australians - please refuse to join the race to the bottom.

Crikey, flying on Jetstar I could be in Asia. Call a taxi - I could be in Mumbai....

There is a glut of out of work LAME's in the airline field since airlines have been sending heavy maintenance overseas. Seems to be jobs in the GA field if you are willing to travel to regional areas. Avionics engineers are rare, Mech engineers are easy to find. So it baffles me why they made this choice

I think that when certain Australian Airlines started charging for interviews, a new low was reached in the industry.

In GA I see instructors being paid the same hourly rate today as I was paid 20 years ago. While I would love that to be different, how? Schools are struggling to make a buck as it is and many have shut up shop.

At the top end of the food chain, how viable would Oz airlines be if they paid pilots more?

As it is I have always seen aviation in Oz as an industry that makes an average buck in the good times and is hand to mouth in the bad times and there are as many bad times as there are good times.

If you wanted to make money in Oz you wouldn't run an airline. They keep going by racing each other to the bottom in terms of prices, services and conditions.

Perhaps what we need is a change in how the aviation industry is viewed by our pollies?

We have a regulatory body whose mission is to promote safety in civil aviation. Which is fair enough.

What we don't have is a body whose mission is to promote the viability of the civil aviation industry in Australia.

Not necessarily saying we need more bureaucrats and a separate organisation but perhaps lobby the pollies to change CASAs mission statement from:
to:
A man has to dream.

Back in the early 90's a young CPL pilot spent 2 days at the entrance to Bankstown Airport with a sign saying he would work for free.

I have had people offer to pay me to employ them. :mad:

Yes, I can believe that Clare.

Back in de days, (late '67) I worked for a well known aero club at Archerfield, and they had a couple of FK-27 FO's working 'honorary'.....
Something about getting 'in command' hours if I recall.....

Poor ole muggins like moi was to be 'stood aside' when these guys were 'on duty', as I was paid by the flying hour plus a small retainer, and said 'gentlemen' were 'FREE'.......

That's when I went 'West'......

No cheers then.....nope ....none at all...:=

So, in reality, not much change, is there..??

I see Rex now saying that without 457s they could not crew their machines.


Lost my job 2 years ago. Early 50s, >13,000 hours. Applied to Rex - 2 years later, still deafening silence.


Please don't tell me their are no Aussies to fill seats.

So the crux is, top end of town the pay is ok
Bottom end, you are lucky to be paid.
But thats ok, when you get to the top.

That rides really really well for the guys that don't want the top job.
when I began doing my commercial, my goal was 340's with Rex.until i looked at the pay.

GA has been training every Australian pilot for ever, none of the pilots give anything back to the sector. They just want to be airline pilots, and abandon ship at first hint of a larger type or a twin or a turbine to another (known not nice) employer along the way.

Look at the changes that GA need to comply with that reduces the bottom end - most introduced by CASA. Even the indirect like an AD, Australian mostly were easy to read. Now it is country of origin and while CASA post some it is up to us to work out if any apply - then it takes ages to interpret the rubbish from the core matter! (time = $'s). Every new CASA staff has an interpretation of a reg (it does not agree with the last CASA guy) but seems the CASA legal team support both of them and their opposite means of compliance.

Then no pilot likes a bond to cover "training" they want the training but free if leave in a short period after.

Why not grow a few and respect the training given?????

Do your term or pay a fine for jumping ship - you guys cost lots of money to companies!!!


They can only claim at some times a part of the direct cost of that training.

What about the direct costs? - NO a care in the World is my guess

Own worst enemy yes - training is far more expensive than it was- then you all ran off to the sand pit!


Invest your own $'s in training via your union, oh they never have! is my bet!!!

The name is porter......

A good contractor now can pull 2k or more if he is gung ho, and slaps in a few extra hours, but that hinges around the tools available and the quality of the estimator.

The trade is screwed.

Seriousl Lack of training of apprentices (AME's are in the same boat).

I won't name companies, but the last one i worked for is a prime leader, but a serious race to the bottom $
Yes I worked for them for $900 in hand on unit based award, but it was 2 fold for me...i needed the cash, and i wanted to see how they did things. (industry groups I am involved in are highly critical, so working for them gave me actual knowledge).

Aviation and the auto body repair industries have an identical problem.
The total lack of investment in training, and i think mechanics are about to join the list.
Pilot training is also suffering...with you pay rather than your employer..............being bonded is a better option than self funding.

In the auto body repair sector, the change in technology is so fast paced, that by the time an apprentice finishes, he almost needs to go back to school to catch up.

There is a company called I-Car, that offers online courses in new car technology. These courses are primarily aimed at tradesmen and keeping them up to date.
Just before xmass, i enrolled and went through the RPL stuff with them. Of 276 modules they offered,
I qualified for 57.
I approached my employer to do some of the courses that he wasn't qualified to sign off on....his response was "sure, thats a great idea, let me know when you have done them so we can accept that type of work"
----------------------------------------------------------

The country is screwed.

Bring back tech and trade schools.......take trade training away from tafe.

Ramble On. No. I would never employ a person on a work visa to fly my aircraft. Have employed lots of pilots over the years but not unless true blue.

It's the whole cost issue that's out of hand.

Then again CASA appear to have advertised lots of jobs at about $150k inc super . So what's going on here.

My whole life has been about getting the Aviation Act changed to reflect viability of companies. Even saw the minister about three weeks ago about this very issue. Got nowhere.

And I now hear a person who could do a lot to reduce costs has been rejected by the CASA Chairman and Board for consideration for the top job.

Why are they doing this?

Just back from Queenstown NZ. Aviation booming. Heli's allowed to land in approved locations in wilderness areas. Try that here!

Raptor, you are a very rare bird.

Yes folks like yourself an employer will go the extra mile and then some.

That training is a true investment in their company, and just to be sure you are true to word - lets contract it with a bond.

Then it is still yes to a face - but often a bitch behind the back.

Its a vision thing....... The vision of the Governments of both persuasions, CASA, Airservices, the airlines and the RAAF is that GA and recreational aviation are, at best, forms of "Air Pollution" and at worst potential terrorist threats. The vision of property developers and local Government is that all airports are Greenfield property development sites. The perception of the general public (in cities) is that GA and recreational flying is for rich silver tails.

In my short time as a pilot and aircraft builder, I have not seen nor heard one bit of support. let alone encouragement of GA from anyone in government, period.

I was very fortunate to begin an aviation career in the early seventies, and go through to normal international retirement age. I also have recent Regional Airline experience and saw first hand the abuse and bullying perpetrated on young pilots who go the extra mile to try to build their careers into something worthwhile.

CASA can have all the mission statements they like, but until they employ people who actually know something about Aviation Safety, nothing will ever change. There are individuals out there in the Regional World in CASA approved positions of authority who are clearly unsuitable for the roles they administer. These individuals have an undesirable impact on the lives and careers of many good people, and the consequences of this can be permanent and damaging not only to those affected, but the industry as a whole, resulting in a spiral of intimidation.

My point is that until the Regulator demonstrates some sort of empathy towards Aviation through action rather than words, all of the views mentioned in these threads will be sustained. It is very pleasing to see a fairly unified position on this matter from all contributors.