Watch out for AMSA advice – you could die!
 

On the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) website under the heading “Most important things to improve you chance of survival, and to help search and rescuers are……..”
Point 3 states:

There is a very serious problem here, as in many cases, by following this instruction no one will hear your Mayday or Pan call.

As I’ve mentioned previously on this site, even calling on the “correct” area frequency of 124.8, 90 miles south east of Charleville at 8500ft, will result in no communication to Brisbane centre – or in many cases to another aircraft. However, by calling on the frequency of the nearest VHF outlet – that is St George on 118.95 - an immediate response will come from the Brisbane centre. If you are flying at a lower level, which is typical for VFR aircraft, the problem is even greater.

At typical helicopter flight levels of 1000ft or 2000ft in remote areas of Australia, I would estimate that over 80% of the time, there is no communication to a ground transmitter on the area frequency. This means you have to rely on another aircraft in the sector monitoring that frequency. In remote areas this is very often unlikely.

Of course, for those who want the maximum chance of getting a mayday call through to the nearest VHF outlet, they can use the “nearest” feature on most GPS units, and they will come up with the location of the closest VHF ground station. This will give the most likely result of getting a line of sight VHF signal. See photo attached.

In the United States the recommended frequency for radio equipped VFR aircraft in E and G airspace is 121.5.

From my experience in Australia, this is also the best frequency for a Pan or Mayday, as in 9 out of 10 occasions you will receive an immediate response from a high flying airline aircraft.

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/...pszakyez84.jpg

I agree. Had to do a Pan call one day, no response on ctr, got a reply and relay right away on 121.5

Re "In typical helicopter flight levels of 1000ft or 2000ft in remote areas of Australia, I would estimate that over 80% of the time, there is no communication to a ground transmitter on the area frequency. This means you have to rely on another aircraft in the sector monitoring that frequency. In remote areas this is very often unlikely."

It would be a 'poor' - ill prepared - chopper, or any other aircraft for that matter, that went out to these areas without the support of its parent company, or HF radio at least.....

Or maybe a 'Sat Phone' would do the trick. I dunno, I've never used one, but I have used HF a lot....

A VHF 'relay' may not be available 24/7 depending on where you are in relation to other aircraft routes.....would you really want to have to RELY on a relay in an emergency..??

Cheers :eek:

So cruising at 1000' agl I have an engine failure. Do I get out my sat phone and start dialling AMSA?

I have tested 121.5 over the last three decades and even in remote ocean areas you get an immediate answer 9 out of 10 times.

AMSA are clearly taking advice from CASA on this. In this case the advice is wrong and will more likely result in an unheard mayday call

If that's ALL you've got, or is your 'last resort'...or after ALL other methods have proved 'unsucessful'...or, IF you think that would be the most efficient...then CERTAINLY mate!

On the other hand, you could employ your EPIRB, but you won't be able to actually talk to anyone on that, but you will get assistance eventually....

This of course is predicated that no-one happens to be in 'your area' at this time...Like I suggested, do you want to have to RELY on this in an emergency?

Can happen quite often, in my experience....just depends on 'where U is' in relation to other aircraft routes / times...

Cheers...

My personal view on yet another one of Dick's threads, about AMSA's guidance is as follows;

If a transmission on 121.5 is going to save me because someone's monitoring that frequency, I'm going to activate my 406MHz ELT or PLB. It will transmit on 121.5.

It just so happens that my 406 beacon will also transmit my GPS position to the satellites and on to all the rescue coordination centres in the world. If high flying RPT hear it, they'll be reporting it to ATC.

Having used the 121.5 frequency to my best advantage, I can also transmit on the Area frequency. It may be that nobody will hear me. But chances are that someone will. In that case I will be utilising three potential channels of Comms (beacon transmission on 121.5 plus beacon transmission on 406 plus voice transmission on Area) rather than just one: voice transmission on 121.5 YMMV ;)

Jaba. So in remote areas what frequency would you leave your second radio on for urgent emergency calls in case of engine failure? What frequency is more likely to be heard?

121.5 and 243.0 are the international distress frequencies aka Guard and monitored [121.5] by airliners. The military use UHF of course.

Dick,

I'm going to transmit on all three of 121.5, 406 and Area. My ELT or PLB will do the first two jobs, and my VHF will do the third. Meanwhile my transponder is squawking 7700.

You don't seem to be able to understand or acknowledge that if someone out there is going hear me on 121.5, they are going to hear my ELT or PLB. Might as well transmit on Area as well.

Why would I transmit on just 121.5 rather than 121.5 and Area?

Thats the theory, here is the practical, based on a low level flight with no or minimal centre coverage, while my ELT or PLB is chirping away doing its things, I will broadcast on CEN but only as time and mental capacity is spare, I am looking for the best place to put down. PERIOD.

If on the other hand, as I usually do, I am flying at 8000' to 16,000' I will take a bit more time to look into the problem first, maybe I ran a tank dry, and once established that this is not being fixed and setting up for a best glide, I would broadcast on CEN, which I have on COM1 with the next CEN frequency on the stand by. If either of them failed, I would go to COM2 which has 121.5 selected in the cruise and either the CTAF or AWIS at destination awaiting use, and broadcast on 121.5, prior to setting off the ELT/PLB.

The reason is I have plenty of time to have a chat, fault find and then prepare for the worst while turning on the beacon.

At low level, I need all the time I can get, so beacon on, talk on the others. If I find I have enough time to get on 121.5 because area was no good, simply with off the beacon for a few seconds and try that. But before I get into the landing phase that beacon is going back on.

Does that make sense?

For those struggling to locate this subject on the AMSA site;
Home > Search and rescue > Training and education > Aviation search and rescue education

https://www.amsa.gov.au/search-and-r...sar-education/

Jaba. I have spent a lot of time asking advice on this.

Best answer I received was to leave at least one radio on 121.5 and the MIC selector on this radio.

Then give a quick mayday or pan call and then concentrate on flying the aircraft.

Put on the beacon when on the surface.

If wanting to communicate to ATC use the nearest function on the GPS and use that frequency.

Your ELT is not telling vital information on 121.5 but you as a person can give a location and say in trouble. Your reliance on the ELT on 121.5 and 406 will create a delay in search until confirmed a problem exists (they will call all contact numbers first to confirm a problem may exist if registered)

Most choppers I know belting out remote are R22 no HF, but a sat phone under the seat and not accessible in flight as other stuff on seat.


I would be asking help on 121.5 first even if it only saves 20 mins on a search.

While a call on guard/area to give a location is better than nothing I wouldn't make it a priority. Only a beacon will get help reliably overhead. We've spent days searching for aircraft that were seen to disappear in the circuit.

"Only a beacon will get help reliably overhead. We've spent days searching for aircraft that were seen to disappear in the circuit."


About a year back the Police turned up to the Flying Club asking if a beacon may have been set off here. We all said no and he said it seems to be from this area but the GPS point was 20+ miles away out in the water in a bay.

I suggested to go to work and put the base station radio on 121.5 (he said it was 406 but that is another story most us know). Anyway they agreed and nothing was picked up, I said I know that on the ground this due to aerial has a x range in these directions.

Basically we only knew all information they had and they showed me 406 map location, was not where the registered owner was (a WA politician in a hire car on holiday).

Forget reliable and no never did find the location of the device.

Dick that is what we are taught.

If I am ditching into water or less than golf course conditions I want the beacon on well before I am at the surface. I may get knocked out………..but live if I get rescued.

Just me…. :ok:

I don't know a lot about this ELB stuff, so I'll defer to Jaba.
You're going to hop onto 121.5 and give your position (assuming your position device is still working) with only a few seconds to impact? Activate your ELB.

BTW, you did you put in a flight plan so that the services would know here to look regardless of what warning you get out, didn't you?

Why not just have 121.5 on standby if you have Garmin equipped radios?

Put out a call on the local and then put out another on 121.5 if no response?

A lot of newer radios have a 121.5 quick select built in in them anyway.

If you regularly travel in remote areas get a HF. Personally at 1000 feet I'm not got to stuff about on the radio. Activate ELB and worry about flying the plane. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

Of the 70+ rego aircraft I have looked after since 406 came mandatory, I think 5-7 have a fixed ELT. That is GA and Charter aircraft, so who at 1,000 ft is finding, opening the protect bag, pulling ariel. setting it off and AVIATING at the same time?

Nick 123 HF has a few issues being size, weight and cost (if USA used them it would be better).

Nick. So you are in your Robbie at 1000' agl about 100 miles south of Charleville .

You hit a bird and a massive vibration follows.

But rather than give a Pan or Mayday call on 121.5 (that you previously had set ) , you are going grab your elt and start putting up the antennae and turning it on !

Wow , with all the experts who I asked for advice not one made this suggestion.

Perhaps imagine this situation? A mate of mine has flown his GA aircraft towards a popular spot in the Flinders Ranges. Something goes wrong and his engine fails. So he makes the appropriate radio calls but there's no response from anyone. He carries amongst his other survival tools, a modern 406 MHz PLB which is registered with AMSA. So before he carries out an emergency landing, he activates his PLB. What if I was the first person that would be called by AMSA if the device was activated and he couldn't be contacted?


Wouldn't that solve the issue for you, Dick?

Gerry. Yes I agree. If no calls are answered I would have to rely on my ELT. But as I have explained -extensive testing I have done over a number of decades in some very remote places in this world show that 9 out of 10 times a pilot will get an immediate answer by calling on 121.5 .

If more GA aircraft monitor the frequency it will be even more likely to get a reply.

And as mentioned ATC can contact a VFR pilot they may have inadvertently flown into controlled airspace by requesting an IFR aircraft that is already on an ATC frequency to call on the 121.5 guard frequency. That's the reason the FAA has this 121.5 requirement for VFR aircraft.

So currently if ATC needs to speak to an aircraft they call the aircraft on centre, hopefully said aircraft responds, ATC passes on whatever they need to, and then the aircraft responds and everyone goes on thier way.

But you propose to have ATC calling some passing airliner, the airliner responding, ATC passing the message to them, airliner responding, airliner calling the VFR aircraft on 121.5, VFR aircraft responding, airliner passing on message, VFR aircraft responding, and then the airliner going back to the original frequency and letting ATC know the message has been passed on? Who cares if that's what they do in good ol' USA, that doesn't sound overly efficient. A lot of wasteful radio transmissions there.

My understanding (and I stand to be corrected) is that US ATC can transmit on 121.5. Australian ATC cannot.

When I was 'in the business' we did not even monitor 121.5, let alone transmit on it.....

We had no capacity to do so - except on one very rare occasion in Derby during a "Kangaroo '83" military exercise when we were 'loaned' a portable "Bayside" VHF transceiver for the purposes of the exercise.

(And we actually used it to contact an aircraft which had otherwise 'nil contact'.)

I don't think that there has been any 'change' since......

Cheers :}

No Wishi. In the US the airline simply makes an announcement "VFR aircraft overhead yyyyyy at 3500' if copying ,request call LAX Centre on XXX.XX."

Yes. The FAA has ground outlets at some locations on 121.5 but can and does use higher flying aircraft ( or intercept fighter) when an aircraft being called is not within coverage of a ground station. In Australia with our lower traffic densities we can save the cost of 121.5 ground stations by using existing aircraft radios.

In Aus I sometimes hear ATC calling a VFR aircraft on the map marked area frequency for different reasons. Often communication is not established. Probably because the pilot , after making 7 or 8 en route frequency changes, mis dialed the 9 th freq ! In the US just leave the radio on 121.5 if not flying in the approach or departure area of a marked CTAF.


Hope you are not looking for a way of making sure the simple FAA system can't work in Australia.

"When"? They wouldn't be on the ATC freq anyway because it's dangerous, isn't it?

With ADSB-OUT, if you squawked 7700 outside of the range of an ADSB ground station, does anything higher with ADSB-IN relay that? Does a advanced ADSB-IN installation display anything? If not, why not?

Gerry………….I assume he made it. I spoke with him prior to departure. Made sure he knew what to do should AMSA need to find him :-)

Slightly off topic, but some information worth sharing in this context.

On the g430/530 If you hold down the frequency flip button for a few seconds it will dial up 121.5

On the g650/750 (like the flash one in the picture) you can either push the volume knob in and hold it in for a few seconds, or if you have the remote flip button fitted, you can hold that down for a few seconds to dial up 121.5 .

Jaba, PM sent!

Nibbles I would only use 121.5 for an emergency purposes. It's a great one to monitor to assist others especially if an ELT is activated.

As I am old school I monitor Sydney Radar when in the lane with my number one radio but I don't make announcements on this frequency when it is ganged with Sydney departures. Don't want to be partially responsible for a serious airline incident or accident.

Re "In Australia with our lower traffic densities we can save the cost of 121.5 ground stations by using existing aircraft radios."

Agreed - it has always been this way and reasonably effective...

Cheers

I can't believe this debate is still going.

Years ago, Boyd Munro did an excellent job of raising this issue. He then published a paper on monitoring 121.5. It was on the remnants of the air safety foundation for a long time, but the thread he started on pprune is still here:

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...australia.html

As for the guys that think ATC will hear you on area frequency or that ADS-B will have your position, all I can say is I want some of whatever you are on.

When you've declared an emergency on area frequency in the circuit at Bourke you can come back and talk to me.

Anytime you have a second radio doing nothing, it should be on 121.5. What earthly reason other than laziness would you have for not doing this?

The traffic that is within range to hear you on 121.5 will be in range to hear you on Area. You don't even need to have a second radio. Some modern VHFs let you TX and RX on one frequency while monitoring another. A push of a button and it's active.

Walk me through the disadvantages of activating an ELT or PLB and transmitting a MAYDAY on Area.

What earthly reason other than laziness would you have for not being competent to activate an ELT or PLB in the air?

I think lots of people do not understand that an activated 406 ELT or PLB transmits on 121.5, and an activated 406 ELT or PLB with an inbuilt GPS will transmit accurate position information directly to people whose job it is to arrange help.

But the ELT doesn't say what's wrong. A quick call on 121.5 is very likely to get an instant response almost everywhere.

" Kilo Tango Kilo ,engine failure- heading for the northern end of Lake Torrens, two on board "

Yep, that's fine but as stated before, it could take a week to search the northern end of a salt lake or "10 miles south of Upper Buckner West" the beacon, when activated, WILL get help overhead.

If you're transmitting a MAYDAY, Dick, it doesn't matter what's wrong. By definition, you consider the circumstances to be an emergency.

If you are in circumstances in which you consider a MAYDAY broadcast is justified, you are in circumstances in which activation of your ELT or PLB is justified.

I say again: Everyone who's in range to receive a MAYDAY on 121.5 is in range to receive a MAYDAY on Area.

I ask again: Walk me through the disadvantages of activating an ELT or PLB and transmitting a MAYDAY on Area.

I used to fly over Lake Torrens monthly, but frankly its not as remote as you imagine. Someone from Andamooka or Leigh Creek or one of the adjoining stations or mines won't take long. And you might be surprised at the number of vehicles that drive the perimeter. There are many other places that bother me more and some are a lot closer to home.

But, the point is that if something goes wrong you want everything going for you. We just installed a 406 MHz ELT despite it no longer being required. Plus I carry a PLB plus I would transmit on Area & 121.5 and these days the humble mobile phone might be best.

The point of this and the previous Boyd Munro thread is to highlight the sense of LISTENING (not talking) on 121.5. Over the years I've responded to a couple of requests on 121.5. Usually ATC looking for someone (an airline on at least one occasion) who is in one of our many VHF blackspots.

Australia is not very good at encouraging listening watch on 121.5 and we are one of the few countries where it is not monitored by ATC. But, somewhere remote, being picked up by an overhead airline might be more reliable than ATC.

This thread was initiated by Dick Smith highlighting the craziness of AMSA focusing on the area frequency for emergency response.

"I ask again: Walk me through the disadvantages of activating an ELT or PLB and transmitting a MAYDAY on Area."


Goodness, Lead Balloon.. Please consider the RPT aluminium confetti that may result from such an irresponsible action!


My thought for those hiring GA aircraft and going on remote trips is simply this: Don't trust that the aircraft ELT actually works. So perhaps carry your own 406 MHz PLB(s) registered to AMSA? They are very cheap, these days.