Weather CAMS - CASA has no interest?
 

I wrote to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority a while back suggesting they fund – it wouldn’t cost too much, weather CAMS at places like Kilmore Gap, Mittagong, Mount Victoria and other places where safety could be improved.

I’ve recently noted in an article the following,

“The FAA’s own data from Alaska shows that a federally funded system of 221 aviation weather cameras installed there since 1999 have become a critical aid to flight planning and have enhanced safety.

A 2012 FAA survey of Alaska, Part 135 operators concluded that weather CAM data has become an integral part of flight planning and go, no go decision making.

The NTSB credits them for contributing to a 53% reduction in weather related aviation accidents between 2008 and 2011. The cameras have also helped cut unnecessary flight hours due to unreliability of weather information by 64%.”

If you’re interested I suggest you have a look at this FAA site. The Loop provision is particularly good Also if you click on one of the pics the clear day image is shown for comparison FAA Aviation Weather Cameras - Home

As you will note, this site covers the AV CAMS in Alaska. They are incredibly fantastic. I wonder if there had been AV CAMS at Lockhart River showing that the weather was clear to the east, whether we would have had that unnecessary accident.

Just found Sarah Palin with a gun and a moose on St. Lawrence Island, more than enough detail to be invaluable to flight planning. This type of camera definitely has a place in Australian Aviation, just needs someone to fund it.

The problem is who would have responsibility (and liability) for the web cams - CASA, Air Services, the airfield operator, BoM?

Some airfields already have cams:

Bendigo Aviation Services

There is also a website that aggregates the airfield cameras:

Bendigo Airport Webcam « Airport Webcams.net

Sounds like a worthwhile initiative. I've used privately funded webcams popular with stormchasers and others with a weather interest for some time now, eg to see what the cloud is doing at Cunninghams Gap and how it has developed over the past few hours. More reliable too than phoning your mate with a farm nearby too, as I've found before now:ok:

Not a personal attack peterc005 :) ... However;

This attitude epitomises what is wrong with aviation in this country. Everyone is so busy trying to wipe their hands of any and every legal responsibility, we'll go to the lengths of not installing a great safety aid so no-one can get sued.

It's what is wrong with CASA - and it's what's wrong with Airservices.

When liability alone drives every decision, no-one has time to worry about safety.

Excellent Idea, I worked in Vanuatu for a few years and they had some excellent Webcams set up on the main island which were absolutely invaluable and seeing as how the vast majority of our flights were either leaving there or going there they helped us immensely.

I don't think liability would be an issue with the cameras would there? They're either there or not, they're provided as an "Aid" so no one should be able to sue if they were not available, but there would have to be someone responsible for looking after them of course.

the Katoomba Skyway has a decent webcam setup, and also, the Bathurst Aero club.

I agree wholeheartedly with Slippery_Pete - and, also, not an attack on peterc005, but this is the problem with the WHOLE COUNTRY!

Its not just a problem with CASA or Air Services, Its a problem with Australia.

Something we inherited from the US of A while trying so hard to be like them.

Only winners are the lawyers and judges, who end up multi millionaires at others expense. Everyone else just has to wear the huge cost to the country they have created.
Only solution would be some sort of legislation 'Controlling' it.

Case in point, My sons school asked for Parents to offer to set up their own little (Stall), a 3m x 3m Gazebo at the School Fete to raise money. If you did though, YOU (every stall individually) had to buy $3 Million worth of 'Public Liability' Insurance for the day.

Every time my Son has a sports day (or anything), they send a form I have to sign absolving them of any care or responsibility for my child and me agreeing to pay All costs should something happen. (Schools do not have insurance).

NZ probably has more reasonably sized Airshows each year than Aus, even though they are 1/6 of the population.

Whos the real leaders here!

Bloody Ridiculous.

Change the Law, Stop this rot.

Did you not see the top post. They are doing it in the USA!!!! How come they can solve the liability thing but we cant?

Fantastic (and surely cheap) idea to improve safety. I regularly use the Port of Melbourne cams to asses the weather.

Canada has them too at a lot of remote ports.
Used them daily and they were invaluable in flight planning. I can't believe that with today's cheap mobile data that they cant be installed.
Webcam + 3G. Can't cost anymore than $10 a month to run.

Dick, its a shame to "cloud" I wonder if there had been AV CAMS at Lockhart River showing that the weather was clear to the east, whether we would have had that unnecessary accident. ardon the pun!) the argument for weather cams with a comment like that! If the crew had flown the Lockhart R approach as it is written, "we would (not) have had that unnecessary accident"!

I have benefited from the weather cams in Alaska. Was booked to fly to a remote fishing lodge a couple of years ago, however, a pre-flight look at the weather cam resulted in a cancelled flight. Next day, we sat on the ground until the weather looked OK, and then off we went for an uneventful flight to our destination.

In the part of the world where I fly, weather cams at Cunninghams Gap, the Brisbane light aircraft lane north, Thorntons Gap west of Townsville etc to name a few would be very useful for VFR pilots.

What, precisely, are the "liability" issues? :confused:

When an AWIS goes U/S, who gets sued?

When a TAF is inaccurate, who gets sued?

weather cams
 

An excellent & building site for weather webcams is Weather Forecast & Reports - Long Range & Local | Wunderground | Weather Underground
Not only webcams but more weather stations in various places across the country with live data from personal weather stations which invariably are very accurate these days. I have been feeding wx and image data into this sytem now for almost a year

Also see here: http://www.wunderground.com/wunderma...1&cams=1&pix=0

The "safety" in CASAs title is about keeping the Government safe from the consequences of aviating. They have no interest in your or my continued existence whatsoever. Therefore they have no interest in webcams as a safety tool except as a method of obtaining evidence for prosecution. Besides, the military have no use for them.

Try Australian Weathercam Network.

Thanks Dick for bringing this up. Many of us have been doing this at our local fields for years and I noticed that OzRunways have incorporated a feed into their app, but I'd never really considered our regulator providing this service. It's a great idea and if you can advise the best person(s) to write to regarding this initiative, please post the details!

PS: that link is amazing there are literally hundreds of cameras on there !
FAA Aviation Weather Cameras - Home

Sunfish - it's clear you had a bad experience with CASA as a young child. Leave that between yourself and CASA, you don't have to bring it up EVERY time those four letters appear on here!

Weather cams - great idea!

Caution Dick's style though (and this is what makes me extremely dubious about what he would do as a politician) - note the headline and the spin.

Headline: (immediately getting people up in arms, bloody CASA, why haven't those bastards acted etc etc)

Spin: Nowhere does he say how long ago, what form these suggestions took, who he wrote to specifically, or what response was received.

No, in his inimitable style he says something to inflame the masses (us) in order to further his own agenda. You watch, there'll probably be an Australian article in due course bringing this up as part of his platform to run for election, or some other personal aim.

Good luck to him in the end, and he's done a hell of a lot that I and many of us would never be able to replicate, but do be aware that just about everything he writes as far as I've seen is manipulative, which annoys the hell out of me.

Why can't sitting or would-be politicians just say it straight for a change?

I raised this point on another post, but here it is again....

At one of those CASA briefings at JT some time ago, it was made VERY clear by the 'briefing' officer, Miss T Miller, representing CASA, that the ONLY 'approved' source for pilots obtaining weather info, is from Airservices. Period.

This is despite the fact that many area forecasts have (had) the local Met Bureau Tel number on the text and the instructions to ring for an elaboration / explanation.

BUT, we were told....the ONLY approved source is Airservices....

Additionally, I pointed out that in the 'good ole days' of F.S. we would take the various weather info messages direct from the BOM via the printer / computer, and disseminate it 'verbatim'. F.S. being the 'voice' of Airservices at the time.
In the event of a query we would ring BOM direct and clarify any issues,
BUT....as a pilot....the ONLY approved source is Airservices.....

So now, my thoughts must be 'censored' - but suffice it to say, that IF the same 'rationale' prevails, then Airservices is the ONLY.....one who can supply and be 'responsible for' said cameras for a pilot to access for 'approved' weather info(?)

Perhaps the originator of the enquiry could re-direct his enquiry there..??

No cheers, nope, none at all!:=

Hear, Hear, AOTW.


But Dick is a 'National Treasure' to the majority out there in 2GB land. For they cannot see that he is forever furthering his own agenda.


I'm glad that you can see it. Few others here apparently can.

Personally, I would like to see more BoM weather radars installed around the country. As a West Australian, central WA i.e. Meekatharra, would be a reasonable start...

Regards.

VH-MLE

Just because Airservices is the only approved source does not mean pilots are prohibited from taking into consideration relevant and available information from unapproved sources.

To suggest that I'm prohibited from looking at a Webcam at my intended location, or ringing my mate in the area and asking him whether he can see the radio mast on Mount Dangerous, as well as consider the relevant ARFOR, TAF (and METAR etc if available), seems to me to be a pretty stupid suggestion.

To suggest that I'm "safe" if I make decisions taking into account only Airservices-sourced information that turns out to be inaccurate, but "unsafe" if I make decisions taking into account other information that turns out to be accurate, seems to me to be an equally stupid suggestion.

(Dick: You wrote to the wrong people. Try writing to the people in charge.)

Lead Balloon,

Your first paragraph is contradicted by the regulations a pilot must only use approved sources and no others. Its ridiculous and is a classic of example of where the rules lead to less safe outcomes.

I agree with what you say, ringing a friend to ask about the clouds at your destination is a prudent thing to do however the regulations specifically prohibit it.

Arm out the window

You appear to be complaining about my provocative headline which states, “Weather CAMS – CASA has no interest?”

You talk about “spin,” well yes, my headline was to try and influence people into making a change.

Here’s the letter I originally sent on Wednesday 10th March 2011

http://rosiereunion.com/file/DS10MARCH2011.jpg

Some 2 years later, I chased my letter as I’d received no answer and then I received the following from John McCormick – note this was dated 20th May 2013, that is over 2 years since my original letter.

http://rosiereunion.com/file/CASA20MAY2013.jpg

As you can see, it’s a typical copout so CASA does not have to be involved, even though I understood the whole reason of being was to enhance aviation safety in Australia.

Gerry111

You state as a criticism of me, “For they cannot see that he is forever furthering his own agenda.”

Yes, that’s absolutely true, my agenda is to try and improve safety and participation levels in Australian Aviation – especially General Aviation.

This seems to worry you that I put my name to these things in a public way.

It looks to me as if you have a chip on your shoulder and it’s interesting how you make your claims anonymously.

Why not give me a ring and have a discussion? We may be able to get together and bring in some changes which can improve the situation here in Australia.

Thanks for the elaboration, Dick.

McCormick's reply was very non-committal, which is disappointing, but it appears he was a shifty bastard so it's not surprising. I believe Mark Skidmore is much more trustworthy, although whether he and the organisation would act on your useful suggestion is another thing.

Yes, I do have objections to your style of spin, as I believe I've said previously somewhere here. I personally respond far better to honest exposition and argument than hyped up sensationalist type stuff, but I guess it gets you maximum bang per written word with a lot of people so good luck to you.

Weather cams are an excellent suggestion to enhance aviation safety.
It also would have a very high bang for your buck ratio.
Hopefully CASA/Airservices can't take a simple thing and complicate it/make it needlesly bureaucratically more complicated and expensive than it need be.
This could be a way for CASA/Airservices to show they are changed and more responsive organisations.

AOTW, McCormick signed the letter, he is unlikely to be its author or responsible for its content. while McCormick may be shifty, the answer to Dicks letter was created in the bowels of CASA.

I did notice, not so long ago, that during a planned NAIPS outage of several hours, the NOTAM specifically instructed pilots to obtain MET briefings from the BOM website.

That's no doubt true, although I'd like to think anything that came out under someone's signature would at least have been perused by that someone.

Further on Dick's point, though, rather than being 'Weather Cams - CASA has no interest?', with its tricky and suggestive little question mark, it would be more accurate and honest to say 'I suggested Weather Cams to CASA and they said they'd keep an eye on developments in the area' ...

Not much of a headline though!

Come on. There is nothing tricky about the question mark.

The heading is to attract people to read my post and then start discussing this important safety issue.

One day I will prepare a list of the successful changes I have been involved in. Then again I will be accused of bragging. And yes. I was responsible for removing the incredibly expensive RFFS from the secondary airports. Saving our GA industry over $100 m since then.

Not to mention the removal of the unique mandatory full position reporting for all VFR that flew more than 50nm or above 5000'. Close to $1 billion of complete waste saved since then without one attributable extra fatality.

You pilots outside the SEQ area e.g. Victoria might have to start a website and pay for this yourselves or see Ben Quinn at the Australian Weathercam Network.

Up until mid 2014, this website was mostly privately funded and run by him when he could get away from his day job. By then the site was in some disrepair with many cameras not working.

In August 2014, he started a fundraising drive with Kickstarter for $10,000 by advertising on his website and using local contacts like myself. By October 2014, such was the popularity of this site, he had his $10,000 including my small contribution.

The result was many new HD camera sites and the repair of the old ones. Nearly 18 months later, the site has many faulty cameras again and I fear Ben will need another $10,000 again soon.

Why not do something about this today and contact him via the email link on his website at probably one of the most valuable flight planning tools for SEQ flyers, the view of Cunningham's Gap from the small town of Kalbar near Boonah: Australian Weathercam Network - Kalbar (Boonah) Webcam

I wonder what CASA would do if the Australian weather Cam Network applied for CASA sponsorship via the "Safety Promotion Sponsorship Program"

https://www.casa.gov.au/about-casa/s...ship-program-1

How quaintly but typically Australian CAR 120 is.

I'm confident CAR 120 is honoured more in the breach than the observance. :ok:

Re: Safety Promotion Sponsorship Program

A nice idea no one. It seems that this is all about promoting themselves with complete and absolute control and nothing to do with something as mundane as actual flying.

Another scenario could be this:

CASA wants branding and signage. All these cameras go offline occasionally, even the reliable ones. Would they want displayed a blank picture frame or an out-of-date image with a caption like, "This camera provided and the image proudly brought to you by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority?"

There certainly is, combined with the wording.

'CASA has no interest?' suggests they don't. 'CASA - are they interested?' would be neutral and more honest. Anyway, that's nit picky points.

P1: In no circumstances would the cameras be provided by CASA. CASA doesn't 'do' aviation infrastructure.

CASA's only involvement would be to consider whether to recommend amendments to the regulations so as to allow pilots to take into consideration information sourced from webcams (which practice is presently a heinously dangerous and criminal sin apparently). Who installs and maintains the webcams is a secondary question.

That just means you have to plan according to official sources. It doesn't mean you can't expect or observe different. You plan to be unable to land but personally observe you can.

I will also venture the perhaps controversial opinion that you're not prohibited from looking at webcams or getting your mate to look out the window when thinking about your upcoming flight, you're just not allowed to make operational decisions based on non-approved sources.

However, as long as you do have all the appropriate forecasts that say you can go (with alternate if needed) then other unofficial sources are a bonus.

Also, a look at a webcam is a (non-approved) observation, and as we know obs and forecasts are very different things. I bet, though, if the bom had access to handy webcams in clag-prone areas they'd use them to help with the forecasting, so maybe it could be a goer. That would also bypass the 'approved observer / source' problem.

Otherwise, they'd be no different to the rain radar pictures they put up now, bloody handy but not to be used in lieu of 'proper' forecasts.

I won't defend the rule, its ridiculous and if I were the casa dictator for a day it would be one of the first things that gets the red pen through it to strike it out. How crazy is it to have a rule that reduces safety.

But the wording of the rule is pretty clear, you can't legally make use of unapproved sources of information for the planning or "conduct" of the flight. It would have to be a miserable CASA inspector who pinged you for it but unfortunately there appears to be a few of those.