Caravan C208 Annual Servicing Costs - $33,837
 

My 1995 Cessna Caravan Model 208B which has done 1785 flying hours and has always been kept in hangers, well away from any corrosive influence is now coming up for a 12 monthly service.

The quote I have received from my maintenance organisation at Bankstown is $33,837. This is surely a staggering price for an aircraft that has actually no faults to be repaired when it goes in for the maintenance and an aircraft that I have done less than 50 hours in, in the last 12 months.

A friend of mine who has a U.S. registered Caravan says that during the last 8 years his Caravan C208 annuals have cost USD12,500. He said the annuals take about 2 days but he supplies extra labour to remove and replace panels and carry out other tasks.

He has recommended to me I should put my Caravan on the American register however, that would mean I would have to lose the very important VH-SHW (Sir Hubert Wilkins) registration.

I can see why Australian companies keep old Navajos and Beavers!

Put SHW on something else, register it in The States, fly out US service personnel and pocket the change. Its a no brainer.

Dick,

That is enormous.

I assume you'll use about $1500 in consumers les.

This leave around $31500 for labour.

Allow $1500 for the paper work log book entries.

This leave $30,000. At $150 charge out per rate, this equates to 200 man hours or around 22 man days.

So with a turn around of 4 days that equates to 5 guys working flat out to do the work. Absolute nonsense.

My suggestion is to pay a guy $500 a day to supervise and time the work done, I think the maintenance organisation will freak. But I'll bet the bill will be around $15,000

Dick, I think you will find that the cost you have quoted - about USD24,500 - roughly double the American figure - is more a sad indictment of the cost of doing business in Australia, rather than what is wrong with the aviation industry here. I reckon if you factored in the straight out theft that is passed off as rent in Bankstown, the costs of compliance with workplace regulations, EPA, etc and labour cost that will be roughly double that of the US, the costs become understandable. Labour costs in this country are high because the costs of living are high, especially in Sydney, in fact about the highest in the western world.
The sooner rampant population growth is wound back in this country, the better...

Mightyauster

Don't forget to add in hangar liability insurance and hangar keepers insurance.

Yep, it all adds up Desert Duck!:(

The cost of annual/100 hourly maintenance varies.

I've had the same plane with the same maintenance organisation for eight years. It's a small GA organisation with very experienced staff that are experts with this type of plane.

Some years it costs over $20,000 (needed new top end kits, magnetos), other years it costs less than $2,000 and is done in a couple of days. Luck of the draw.

I think it's important to support local LAMEs and rarely question a bill. They need to make a buck to survive and be financially viable. It must be depressing for the owners of maintenance operations seeing owners trying to be cheap by removing panels etc themselves to save a couple of bucks.

The rate for a LAME at Moorabbin was $70 an hour last time I looked, and I can't see how they would make a buck at this kind of rate especially given the overheads. I can't imagine it would be any cheaper in the USA and I don't think the LAMEs would be any better.

Dick, how about you upload a copy of the quote to give an idea where the costs are being incurred?

Dick it has to be said, you are using one of the most expensive GA maintenance organisations in Australia.

You know as well as anyone that labour costs in Australia are astronomical compared to the USA.

Additionally you state:

...but you don't tell us what grade of maintenance facility your friend uses.

I had some work done at Corporate Air in Fresno, a top-notch maintenance facility that would rival anything I have ever seen in Australia. Their standards were high, their aircraft data and SBs etc exactly the same as ours here in Australia, but the cost of labour over there can't be beaten.

Changing the Nationality of your aircraft won't change much if you are still using Australian manpower.

Well Dick you can't have it both ways, as you posted in another thread:


As I have said to everyone, get out of aviation as soon as you can. In the next five or ten years there are going to be tens of millions of dollars, if not hundreds of millions of dollars losses as business becomes more unviable and aircraft values drop further.

Fujii, I think Dick is still following the same line and wouldn't be surprised if he had made this thread specifically to bring up the fact that undoubtedly both an organisation here in Australia vs one in the US would be using the same manual for Maintenance as provided by Cessna and same parts (If not then you can't compare them anyway so moot point!), but his buddy in the US gets it a lot cheaper, so why is this?

Other than higher labour rates here in Aus (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing as the Ginger Beers deserve to make a decent living as well) but perhaps all the extra crud that they're required to adhere to above and beyond the Cessna Caravan Maintenance Manual that is imposed by Bureaucrats and CASA!

Perhaps a list of the costs as quoted? I wouldn't suggest a direct copy of the quote as this to me would seem a bit rude to be disclosing but certainly typing out the costs as listed would be enlightening.

I will do it for $32,837 ;)

It's not just labour that's half the price in the USA, it's almost everything.

An average house is half the price.
An average car is half the price.
The fuel for the car is half the price.

That is achieved by having 15x more people and a very low minimum wage standards - thereby having a large proportion of the country living in poverty and engaging in crime just to survive.

Since you a self-confessed proponent of reducing Australian population growth, the only other solution is to halve the salary of the LAME's.

I don't consider Australian LAME's to be overpaid, so I guess the point I am getting to is that is the cost of doing anything in Australia.

(BTW your post just prompted me to go to the Mazda USA website to compare the cost of the new Mazda I just bought. Yep, half the price.)

Some good info here from an Aussie operator on the work required to give a true idea of why the costs can be so high... however $34k sounds over the top. I would like to see the Cessna schedule for the hours required to be spent for an annual inspection and divide that into the total.

http://www.avtrac.com.au/catalina/ca...som_amd_00.pdf

There seems to be a distinct difference between the approach to annual inspections here in Australia versus the USA. In the USA the Annual Inspection is exactly that... an inspection. Over here it seems to be the time of year when the LAME decides to do all the work that he's been wanting to do on your aircraft all year but couldn't force you to pay for.

Dick. I think we had this same conversation a number of years ago when your 'Van was near new?

Your Caravan is on a Cessna system of maintenance that anticipates - from memory - four cycles at 125 hours per cycle, within one calendar year. That you have only flown 50 hours in the past year does not exempt the aircraft from requiring all four maintenance cycles (equivalent to a minimum of 475 flying hours) to be completed in 12 months.

If you've only flown 50 hours probably none of the maintenance cycles have been completed, hence you are now up for all four cycles at the obscene cost of $33,837? Are there any calendar time limited components that must be overhauled or replaced? (Fuel nozzles, starter generator etc?)

Talk to Cessna and ask if they have a system of maintenance more appropriate to a low hour private operation.

Or take it off the Cessna system of maintenance and have another more suitable system of maintenance developed and approved by CASA. Good luck in getting CASA to approve that revised system of maintenance..........

Dick,

(Aeroplanes are stored in hangars. Shirts on hangers.)

If you are only flying your Cessna Caravan for 50 hours per year, perhaps ownership isn't the best way to go? :8

Why Gerry? My Mazda sports car just had it's fifth 40,000 km service for the same reason, I probably only drive 1,000 kms per year. I am changing the maintenance from a Dealer's full log book scheduled service, to a change of oil and filter only on repeat services.

I doubt the total cost worries Dick's bank account, but I fully understand why $660 per flying hour in scheduled maintenance is totally ludicrous and raises his ire.

In Dick's case the system of maintenance does not anticipate low hours private usage. And I'm sure his quote may be rather "subjective"! I don't know why but for some reason many larger Australian maintenance organisations seem to take up to double the number of man hours for a particular task, that a US maintenance organisation requires.

Dick must pressure Cessna for a more cost effective manufacturer's system of maintenance, or go down the soul destroying path of trying to find someone rational at CASA to approve a new system of maintenance - which may well impact on the price he gets when the aircraft is ultimately sold.

Dick, if your C208B has 1,700 hrs TT, does that quote include a Hot Section Inspection? (Can't remember the time interval for an HSI on a -34 engine??)

From the link I posted above. As close as I can find to a Caravan maintenance manual. (PS Could be for salt-laden operations, although compressor wash would be daily if that was the case)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc75/pratt.jpg

I thought the HSI on the PT6A-114 was around 1,750 hours (half the original 3,500 hours TBO.) I don't think a quote for $33,000 will include an HSI?

Even with trend monitoring I doubt Dick can get an extension or on condition, with annual utilisation so low. But if his cycles per hour are very low and the engine had regular compressor washes, for the first HSI he may get away with a C section split and visual inspection?

As requested by peterc005, attached is a copy of the maintenance quote for my Caravan

http://www.rosiereunion.com/maintena...08b_VH-SHW.pdf

I recently sourced an exchange IO-520 with new cylinders etc from one of California's biggest Continental overhauler for 50% of my friend's best quote from here [that included freight]...

You're paying them too much already. That's why you're in credit ;)

Out of interest, can anyone link to a document that describes what each of those items on Dicks Quote actually involve?

I see things like "Items 1C", "Items 2C" etc... are allocated hours and then mentioned again further on? Can I assume that these items change between each Inspection Document? Otherwise it looks like a lot of potential doubling up?

Torres

I am already on the special low hours Cessna system of maintenance.

I had the engine zero timed by Pratt a few hundred hours ago at a cost of over $200 k

What would a similar service cost on a Beaver?

That quote seems about right for the amount of work required.

When the Caravan maintenance program changed to the Task system CASA demanded that all Caravans were to be put onto the system, as they deemed the annual inspection criteria inadequate.

Just to set up the new program took me over a week of research to find out the stage of the program a particular machine was at. Which I couldn't charge for.

BTW $110 an hour is not the most expensive rate around.

Edit to add: From memory, It depends where the aircraft was in the previous maintenance program, there may be some major work required, the Task document details the interval and inspection/replacement criteria.
And can be expensive, remember our Government wants all passengers to enjoy the same safety margins as QANTAS paxs

Dick you need to take into account that you have a 48 month inspection due, which includes fuel tank inspections, detailed cockpit inspections, detailed wing inspection, detailed internal tail cone inspection and landing gear drag link and spring inspections. The 48 month inspection alone is 112 hours @ $110 = $12,300 which is quite reasonable. I would suggest you are not comparing apples with apples when you are looking at another aircraft's 12 month inspection costs.

Dick. I'm not familiar with the system of maintenance your C208B is on, but a major item in there is the 112 hours labour for a four year item, which may now be due?

I think Eddie is suggesting that CASA deemed the Cessna manufacturer's system of maintenance inspection criteria inadequate, thus imposed a more arduous and obviously far more expensive system?

I have no idea but I'm willing to bet the labour burden and cost for an annual inspection, 100 hourly and new MR for a DHC2 Beaver would be far, far less than your Caravan! Ludicrous I know, but a 60 year old rag and bone aircraft with big, round and oily engine probably costs far less to operate than your low hour, high tech machine.

Do you have the same excessive maintenance costs for the CitationJet, due to the prescribed system of maintenance?

Torres, it is the new cessna maintenance system, there is still an annual inspection but we have to do all the tasks due as well

Hummm, needs 268 hours labour after flying 50 hours. I hope they don't find anything wrong with it... its only an estimate!


Sooo 200k to get the engine zero-timed, 34K for the annual, 50 hours per year... What's the hourly cost of flying that single engine aeroplane? Sounds like Dick needs to take his own advice, sell that one quick and get out.

CTE, that is correct, as I understood it, at about April - June this year.
It is not the 50 hours it has done since the last annual, it is where the machine is in the maintenance program.

Look here for one that I am familiar with.
http://www.avtrac.com.au/catalina/ca...som_amd_00.pdf

Thanks Eddie. That explains it. Not a '12 monthly service' at all then. Quite a different thing altogether!

New in 1995, now 2015.

Initial 20 Years - Lucky it does not have Sids program (Yet), the ones that are not required often in USA (private ops).

$110 is good, we are $126 +.

If it flys, floats or f***s, rent it. That's nearly $700/hour in maintenance alone before you add in fuel, hangar, insurance, depreciation and loss of interest from not having the money in the bank.

As someone previously said, if you're only doing 50 hours a year ownership isn't the best way to go. Get rid of the aircraft and charter a King Air instead. Nicer ride and you'll be quids in pocket.

TBM….I hope you get a good run. Please report back at 1700 hours or jug change/major drama, whichever occurs first. ;)

Band a lot :confused: Steve is back :eek:

I am not complaining about the cost. Just pointing out the costs that apply to a turbine aircraft

I can see why there are still 40 year old Navajos flying in the charter business.

I can afford these costs however if I was attempting to run a charter business using one of these aircraft I doubt it would be very profitable.

I am glad we share the wealth better here than in America where they have over 50 million on the minimum wage of about $8 per hour.

Torres,


Your comments are fair. I happen to own a 1989 Toyota Supra Turbo that cost me $60k when new. It will turn 70,000 Kms on my next trip. Like you with your Mazda sports car, I have supplementary oil and filter changes done. The Toyota dealer that sold it to me still does all the mechanical services for me. (Their current Service Manager was the dealership apprentice mechanic when I bought the car 26 years ago! He very kindly personally does all the services for me. He still remembers helping to fit the air conditioning unit all those years ago!)


So for 26 years, I've happily paid the maintenance, registration and insurance costs. And the car has simply been an opportunity for me to go driving whenever I wanted to do so. I still love driving the car as much as I did the day I took delivery of it. Sure it has been a financial indulgence. But I've never complained to anyone about that!


So Torres, you and I aren't complaining about the cost of ownership of our fun toys.


But Dick apparently is. As I said before, if you only fly your Cessna Caravan for 50 hours per year, perhaps ownership isn't the best way to go?

1. Sell Caravan.

2. Buy Piper Cub.

;)

The Mazda MX5 is cheap. I owned and greatly enjoyed an E Type Jaguar for many years..... :hmm:

I don't think Dick is complaining about the cost of ownership of his Caravan (or the helicopters), rather the high cost of owning an Australian registered Caravan, maintained to what now seems to be a CASA directed maintenance system, at the far higher Australian labour rate.

Actually Dick, the hourly cost of maintaining a Caravan operating 800 or more hours per year is significantly lower (per seat/mile) than any of the older comparable twin engine aircraft. You are paying the price of the many calendar based maintenance items, apparently required in Australia.

Dick,

Please do us all a favour:-

List the items due on the aircraft, there will be 12, 24, 48 month requirements, possibly even a borescope for a low utilisation engine.

IFR may require Garmin updates to software if so equipped, and of course are you installing ADS-B with out informing us.

I would say there is every chance the MLG legs may have to come out for corrosion inspection, perhaps even an NDT on the tail feather attachments etc.

So please list the items, we don't need to know the dollar allocation we can figure that out for ourselves.

safe flying .............

A lot of misinformation here .....

All of the Maintenance requirements for a Cessna 208/B are outlined in Cessna CAB11-5 Rev1

Some of the previous links in this thread are for a CASA approved System of Maintenance and refer to the requirements of AD/ENG/5 for the extended TBO to 5,000 Hours. A Private operator does not require a SOM, maintenance is carried out as per the Log Book Statement.

SID’s have always been a part of the MM for the 208 Series. In the USA a Caravan regardless of operation category must have the Inspections as per the Airworthiness Limitations Section (ALS) of the Maintenance Manual carried out as they stood at the time of initial certification. Reference Lorelei Peter, Deputy Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations, FAA. Clarification letter https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

In particular …. After added ALS requirements are not mandatory for operators or maintainers of the affected aircraft absent the FAA’s issuing an Airworthiness Directive (AD) or some other notice and comment rulemaking that would make them mandatory. This is why the older Cessna's in the USA in Private Operation do not have to comply with SIDs.

Aust$110 is USD$78 per hour, thats cheap labor.

A good top quality shop in the USA is currently USD 99 per hr for turbine, some others charge $95 per hr... thats AUD 137 to 132 per hour.


In Singapore charges are AUD 155 for turbine work per hr

So the argument about labor in the USA being cheaper... nahhh ... its total BS!