Reporting Of Incidents?
 

Just a hypothetical. If one sees an aviation incident that one is not involved in, does one have to report it?

I ask myself that question every time I see you taxi out.

I would think it would depend on if you could reasonably be certain a responsible person had reported it.

If the question is, "Is it compulsory" the answer would be no otherwise imagine the reports required if an accident occurred at an airshow.

If the question is "Should I report it?" then that is entirely up to you.

AIP ENR 1.14 lists responsible persons wrt incident reporting.

Just being a Sunfish observer does not count.

And, no need, if you believe that some-one else has reported it.

I would say it is likely absolutely none of your business and you should pull your head in and not get involved. I saw a Yak 9 inverted today, but I won't be reporting that because I dare say it has already been reported :-) How do you know someone hasn't already reported it, perhaps the PIC for example?

So what did you witness at Narromine Sunfish? Did old mate blow up his portable mattress with the exhaust of his RV again?

You really need another hobby than Pprune.

Was that the same Yak 9 inverted on the ground at Tyabb or inverted in the air?

I don't think an inverted Yak 9 in the air classes as an incident, but we are talking about Sunfish so you never know :ugh:

What would class as an incident in my mind would be a CASA employee performing aerobatics including inverted, in a Yak 18 at 500 ft with 4 POB. (purely hypothetially speaking of course ;))

Nothing to do with Ausfly or Tyabb, purely a hypothetical.

sunny I'm getting a bit worried about you.
you seem to be losing it boy.

to answer your question. this is Australia the land of the free, where a man is assumed innocent until proven guilty.
This is not effing Russia under Stalin. This is not effing Germany under Hitler.
It is entirely a desirable thing that you do not act in this country as a frustrated old woman.
keep your nose in your own business, let others enjoy enjoy their activities with out undue hinderance.

get a bloody life boy. (thats a soap :})

I watched Two very lucky people come within an ace of killing themselves.

Luckily what appears to be only slight damage to the aircraft where they demolished a sign at the end of the trip. Another meter and it would have been the fence, another Two meters a power pole. If they had got off in ground effect the next obstacle was high voltage power lines about 500 metres away.

Cirrus, thousand meter soft wet grass strip and a downwind takeoff with at least Twelve knots of tailwind. It got airborne in ground effect to about Ten feet halfway along, stalled back on and drifted right before the pilot had the good sense to abort. "The tailwind came out of nowhere" was the comment.

I happened to be driving home with the shopping at the time and the road runs beside the strip. I say again, very, very lucky.

I assume the pilot reported it and will get a permit to fly to recover the aircraft.

Are you bi-polar Sunny? Last night you said this was a hypothetical question???

Sunfish @ 20:26 Less than 10 hours later.

Man, you seem to have some divine power of foresight! Can you tell me "hypothetically" what the lotto numbers will be? :E

Since I can assume the pilot reported the incident himself then I can share my observation.

Folks,
At the risk of being accused of being a pedant, there is a difference between an accident and an incident, although it sometimes ( almost always) suits people to obscure the not so subtle differences for PR purposes --- ie: Airlines have incidents that are accidents, but "accident" sound far more serious to the ignoratii and the twitterartii.
Tootle pip!!

From what you describe, you might be saving some lives in the future by reporting it. I know too many people that have been killed doing stupid things in aircraft either thru ignorance or willfully actions.

If a firm hand had been placed on their shoulder earlier to let them know people are watching and are concerned, they might still be here getting old and grey like me.

Report it if in doubt.

There seems to be some compulsion to report it to PASA (PPRuNe Aviation Scandal Authority)

So Sunfish is driving along in his Toyota Landcruiser from his local Coles supermarket, hurrying along so his chicken Kiev doesn't spoil, tired from 14 hours driving over the weekend, with ASIC card / PPL in the centre console, attached to a lanyard that he got from the trade day at Avalon 2015... and happens to see a Cirrus out his corner window and notices that it's not taking off (accelerating) that well. Sunfish thinks this is because there's a tailwind, however it's actually because the grass is quite wet and the soil soft due to the recent rain from the weekend when Sunfish was away in Temora.

The prudent CPL pilot (with 4,800 hours of experience) of this fine aircraft decides to abort the takeoff for the safety of himself and his passengers (if any) and due to his piloting skills manages to get it stopped in time with very minor damage to the aircraft.

Then Sunfish stops after driving onto the airport premises to become one of the infamous peanut gallery after activating his hub locks, and notices a precise 12 knots of direct tailwind straight down the strip which started to blow up after the attempted takeoff, as it has been doing all day long as the weather front arrived from the west.

The poor pilot not aware that the wind had swung around from a direct cross-wind to his rear quarter was then heard commenting about how the wind had come from behind unannounced; good one Huey. Sunfish is then able to determine from travelling past the airstrip at 80+ kmh in his car with the windows up that the pilot has done the wrong thing by attempting a takeoff with a tail wind.

Then Sunfish gets home, opens pprune to report this incident whilst simultaneously filling out an ATSB incident report using the aircraft call sign and presumably leaving the pilots name and contact details blank as he doesn't even know their name :ugh:


Sunfish, when you bent the firewall of the hired Cessna 172 at Moorabbin, how many people driving past on Centre Dandenong road lodged an ATSB incident report?

What's lost if he wrong - nothing
What's gained if he is right- everything, most probably at the cost of some more training....

A simple factual report is all that is needed. Of course who ever looks at it will realize the potential for inaccuracies.
Besides, what is the cost of safety?

Is that actually going to come from someone who was driving past at the time?

The whole opening post / thread is operating under an assumption that the Pilot in Command isn't going to bother to report this... guilty until proven innocent. It would take a brave man to not report this at the risk of his licence, fines, jail, not to mention issues with his insurance company.

More training? It would be a moderately rare occurence for the ATSB or CASA to request more training for such an event.

It seems that there would be little to be gained by a third-party to report this kind of incident.

I know of an incident where a third-party reported it and got the rego wrong which left an innocent party to defend themselves to prove that they were not involved. The reporter simply needed to p:oh:ss off and butt out! :ugh: which is what most of us think should happen here!

Exactly what I did Squark, what i wanted to check was if I can get into any trouble by NOT reporting.

BTW since I've been sailing since age 9, I can judge wind speed and direction pretty well. I thought the bloke was going to taxi to the other end of the strip until he gunned it. What got my attention was him dragging it off the ground only to settle back heavily about Five seconds later after starting to drop the right wing. The aircraft finished up with the nose a meter from the fence after demolishing part of the airstrip sign with its right wing. Very lucky guys. I'm glad he had the presence of mind to abort the takeoff when he did.

When it comes to an incident/accident, I don't think "silence" is an appropriate response.
Some people know to do the right thing, others only do when pushed and others don't know what is right.
Unfortunately aviation is in the public area for all to see the results of a bad decision. We must all accept that our actions in these aircraft can and will be called into question from time to time and reasonably so.
Hence if u don't know to do the right thing, would the knowledge that big brother is watching make you do the right thing?
I hope it would not need to.

Anyway as I said too many mates lost due to stupid stuff becoming a part of the operational culture..... Safety, safety, safety..........

So why did you start the thread as a hypothetical? If you wanted to know if you were required to report it why didn't you just look up the requirements of the TSI Act or ring the ATSB? If you wanted to stir things up and have people dump on you - well done mission accomplished.:D

Get some sleep, you are obviously still tired from the weekend.

For future reference; Motorists on their way from Coles to their house are not required to report aviation incidents to the ATSB or CASA. I'm sure that's in the CAO's somewhere :* If you witness a crime on the other hand, call Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000.

I presume there was a dam nearby then.

I think you boys need to take a chill pill.

Not suggesting the following technique but in this type of situation (where you haven't used very good judgement nor P charts) it's been known that the application of full flap and subsequent "ballon" followed by a "missed approach" style clean up could save your arse, and airframe damage.

Just saying, not condoning :P

Folks,
For your consideration and delectation, despite the fact that Australia is a signatory to the relevant conventions, the Australian definition of an accident is a little different to ICAO Annex 13, I do hope Australia has filed a difference.

It is not a big difference, but probably bears on whether what Sunny saw was an accident or an incident.

Tootle pip!!

3 Definitions TSIA ACT 2003
In this Act, unless the contrary intention appears: accident means an investigable matter involving a transport vehicle where:
(a) a person dies or suffers serious injury as a result of an occurrence associated with the operation of the vehicle; or
(b) the vehicle is destroyed or seriously damaged as a result of an occurrence associated with the operation of the vehicle; or
(c) any property is destroyed or seriously damaged as a result of an occurrence associated with the operation of the vehicle.

ICAO Annex 13
Accident.
An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which:
a) a person is fatally or seriously injured as a result of:
— being in the aircraft, or
— direct contact with any part of the aircraft, including parts which have become detached from the aircraft, or
— direct exposure to jet blast,
except when the injuries are from natural causes, self-inflicted or inflicted by other persons, or when the injuries are to stowaways hiding outside the areas normally available to the passengers and crew; or
b) the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure which:
— adversely affects the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and
— would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component, except for engine failure or damage, when the damage is limited to the engine, its cowlings or accessories; or for damage limited to propellers, wing tips, antennas, tires, brakes, fairings, small dents or puncture holes in the aircraft skin; or
c) the aircraft is missing or is completely inaccessible.

Aircraft is sitting here, so presumably all protocols are being followed.

12 -14 knots? Anyone who sails knows that this is the top end for a number One light genoa:). …and can judge it to a tee.

I still recall a QF 747 having an 'incident' in Bangkok. A golf course was involved from what I remember.

Para377,
Hence the remarks in my original post.
Tootle pip!!

Come on Sunny, a few of us still waiting on your answer to this.

YPJT, there was nothing to see except for the folk in the tower. They thought my landing technique was so bad they called me in before I could do even worse. How that came to be is another story.

It is however rather rare to see a major "bounce" on take off which is what got my attention on Sunday.

So Sunny did you provide the pilot with your name and number so that he could include in his report of the incident to the ATSB that there was a witness?

Struth, you blokes!:*

Why is there so much finger pointing and general hostility on this site these days? :confused:

Pinky,
It just reflects the attitudes in GA in Australia, in part a result of the atmosphere generated by CASA. But only in part, there has long been a very unhealthy atmosphere around aviation in Australia, unlike every other country, in which I have flown.
In particular, the differences in attitude between AU and US/NZ/CA could not be a more stark contrast.
Could this have something to do with the reasonably healthy state of GA in US/NZ/CA versus the serious malaise in AU.
Tootle pip!!

Maybe it is also that in NZ/USA/CA, pilots do not go to anonymous forums looking for justification to be a snitch.

Or maybe it's just the Australian nanny state culture. We need to prescribe rules for everything verse trusting citizens to do the right thing and accept individual responsibility.

It appears so.....

YPJT, Greenie,
Probably they are all elements of the problem here in AU.
We have really made a mess of aviation in Australia.
Tootle pip!!