Discussion Closed by Tidbinbilla
 

I recently started a thread in relation to $400,000 in modifications required on a Citation 7 to be imported into Australia. Tidbinbilla closed the thread, saying

In fact, I don’t know of any Citation 7s that are flown by private pilots. In this particular case it was a commercial company that was planning to import the Citation 7 to Australia and to employ quite a number of professional pilots to fly the aircraft. The aircraft is now not coming so the professional pilots will now not have a job opportunity. What could be more applicable to a professional pilots’ forum?

If I remember correctly, threads that are started to question why was my/the thread shut down were followed by a banning. Shall we see consistency here?

Must admit, I was wondering the same thing. Prematurely cut short I thought. And this wasn't the only one. It's their train set I guess, but its not exactly encouraging people to participate wielding the axe so quickly..!

Maybe it was closed because it's getting really tiresome hearing rich people whinge about their toys

Rich people deserve their say too, plus it might be aeromedical or something..

The blokes who own tho company are not rich. That's why they did not bring the aircraft to australia.

Rich people are not effected by the CASA expensive regulations.

Ask Jamie Packer if the unique requirements would stop him from operating an aircraft here.

Probably leave it on the FAA register and use US pilots.

That's why it is important that if we are supporters of Australia that this type of exposure be allowed on prune. Not censored.

Dick, how about a bit of a heads up on the type of modifications you are talking about. A quick google shows a full top down upgrade four screens and boxes for the Honeywell SPZ tops out at $350k stateside....exactly what are you specifying?

$350k stateside well over $400 k here

I am not specifying any equipment. Just passing on the statement from an extremely frustrated small business operator who wanted to bring a Citation 7 from Europe to Aus.

Oze. Have you noticed the continued downturn in GA in the last decade or so.?

It should be growing like just about everything else.

Any views on why Bankstown would go from nearly 500 k movements per annum to less than 280k ?

I think it's most likely caused by the one way ratchet in increased CASA imposed costs . Any other views?

The Coalition was elected on a policy of removing uneccessary red tape costs. Has this been complied with by casa ?

And I bet the US quote does not include a FDR. Not required in the US.

PPRUNE is owned by a company in the USA called "Internet Brands."

At the back-end it is purely a money making commercial website. The mods are here to wield their stick and keep us in line for their own personal self interest.

Internet Brands, Inc. ? PPRuNe.org

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Ah Australia, hopelessly pedantic and anal while espousing the loveable larrikin image - you don't see so many threads closed for petty reasons on the other forums. Tid is just the pprune incarnation of a bigger problem.

Closed
 

Still can see no reason why thread closed!

Yes it's a professional network/rumor site, and it was a very relevant topic.

CASA will simply force people to bring aircraft in and operate on foreign register if private ops.

I pity the operator that must make it VH and charter ops.

Just as well it's not a small private operator first of type for the PC24!!!

Hey Dick would throwing it on the ZK register and using the pond agreement work like Vuncint did?

Shame one has to float the rules.

Pretty clear it was closed because Tidbinbilla did not want this issue openly canvassed.

Possibly he should explain the reason on this thread.

No wonder visits to this site are reducing. That won't impress the owners who make their money from the number if hits.

Still amazes me the difference between what gets locked here and the stuff that runs it's full course in the fragrant harbour.

At least the Australian forums are consistant with reality! Regulated to death!

I am told that Tidbinbilla is either a CASA employee or a Virgin pilot.

I'm amazed at the negativity on this site at times. We need to celebrate good jobs and people having a "go"....

Dick was pointing out that the extra costs of operating aircraft in Australia vs. say the USA is not a safety issue but an economic one and more aircraft flying here means more good pilot positions as well as business [read employment] for those that maintain and service them.

Why do we require different standards????

Yes, let's hear it Tid!

We can discuss jabiru engines, Hoxton Park and v-tails for ever and ever, but a very relevant question on a very real issue concerning a high performance, multi-crew jet above 5700kg is ruled out of order as this forum is only for 'professional pilots'? Really? :ugh:

I keep feeling the urge to Look Left over my shoulder, but alas I don't see any moderators nearby ;)

Don't forget LOP operations.

Dick,

The advice your friend has been given is wrong, the Cessna 650 was issued with an Australian type acceptance data sheet in 1999.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...nload/a160.pdf

It will not be the first of type, there is also no requirement to get an aircraft prepared for an Australian CofA in Australia, it is a commercial decision where they choose to do the work.

A decent prepurchase inspection would identify the work required to meet the Australian requirements, and that would be factored into the purchase price.

Sounds like there is avionics work to be done, which maybe a lot cheaper if the aircraft flew via the US enroute to Australia.

Dick, you almost had my sympathy, right up until your unsubstantiated post referring to the possible employment of the moderator. He/she could also be QF/Jetstar/RAAF or completely unrelated to the industry. That is completely irrelevant, and simply encourages the divide that is fatally affecting the industry as a whole. You're the first to piss and moan about people playing the man not the ball. You can do good for the industry, but that ain't it.

Come on. It's a rumour network. Don't take me so seriously!

SWH . You have missed my point entirely.

I introduced the " first of type " changes back in about 1990 which meant aircraft did not have to have expensive modifications to go on our register .

That's what has changed and is the reason this aircraft will not come to Australia and result in employment of more professional pilots!

As I understand it the 650 import was not limited as a 'first of type' but rather the expensive upgrades to comply with our ADS-B system plus an FDR not required in USA. These items add no value if aircraft is subsequently exported so therefore somewhat "dead money"...

You don't think it's got something to do with the (mis-)management of Bankstown airport? :ugh:

You don't think it's got something to do with the increase in real estate vlaues in Sydney, with corresponding increases in rent/mortgages, as well as the other increases in cost of living?

Here's another thought:

120 years ago there would have been multiple blacksmiths and wheelwrights in every regional village or town and on most large properties to service the ubiquitous horse and cart industry.

Even in the 1900s it would have seemed impossible to think that motor cars would render the horse and cart a curiosity, a plaything for eccentric hobbyists.

In the 1970s and 1980s it would have been impossible to forsee a day where General Aviation would end. Every man would have an aeroplane or a helicopter parked in his shed by the 21st century - look at the rate of technological progress we were making!

How many electronic kits does your shop sell these days Dick? I know you don't own it any more but I bet you it's a fraction of what my mates and I used to buy in the 1980s.

I hope I'm wrong.

All aircraft imported to Australia should be fitted with an FDR and CVR. Just think how much easier the investigation of the NGA ditching would have been, if NGA had been fitted with an FDR and CVR.

It's about safety. :=

This is a forum for professional pilots. Professional pilots don't question the SOPs. They do as they are told. :}

The moderators could be rocket scientists for all I care, they do a great job. Put up or shut-up I say, start your own forum and donate the revenue stream to charity.

Classic
 

Rumor network a little freedom of speech.

I agree with threads attacking people gutlessly should be shut down.

But a chat about import...

Must be CaSA...

Dick,
I suggest Tiffin with aunty pru.
No censorship there, everyone welcome

Dick,

I dont think I have missed your point at all. At no stage was anyone able to import an aircraft from overseas without meeting Australian Airworthiness requirements, even a factory new 737 or A320.

I am somewhat suspicious over the $400,000 being presented. I have previously pointed out to you the availability of an EASA STC for your Citation which adds a WAAS position source without having to go via Cessna so you can be ADSB. The Cessna 650 should also have TD-94s transponders as well, it should not be difficult to get a WAAS data source connected to them and then you have ADSB.

The purchase of a second hand 15-20 year old aircraft like the Cessna 650 is a commercial decision, someone operating in that space should be aware of the airworthiness requirements that apply to every aircraft type in that class.

This is not a type specific/first of type cost being imposed by CASA regulation at all.

Lead Balloon. Your comment "All aircraft imported to Australia should be fitted with an FDR and CVR. Just think how much easier the investigation of the NGA ditching would have been, if NGA had been fitted with an FDR and CVR" is perplexing.
I thought the new investigation into NGA included retrieving the boxes that they hadn't bothered with last time.
Or is it irony? Apologies for any thread drift.

SHW. No. Not a first of type requirement . But a CASA requirement if the aircraft wishes to operate in Aus.

If we go back and accept aircraft that meet the current FAA requirements this and other aircraft will be able to come to Australia and operate at no punitive extra cost.

Our unique early ADSB requirements will further damage our industry with no measurable safety improvement.

Australia does accept the FAA certification basis and type certificates.

That does not mean an imported aircraft do not need to have Australian registration marks, data plates, exit signs etc. Australian airworthiness requirements need to be met, they apply to all aircraft.

Your friend could have made the commercial decision to buy a second had aircraft that already has ADSB, TCAS, DFDR installed for several million dollars more, or a lower price one with the knowledge they need to comply with Australian requirements. It the choices one has to make when importing a 15-20 year old aircraft.

If he was shopping for an aircraft to use in Australia he should have known what he is looking for, you don't by a 2 seats sports car for a family of 5.

SHW. How can Australia absorb all these extra costs?

Don't you understand that to add even $200 k to the cost of an aircraft means a business may not be viable.

That was the sole reason my board made the decision that we must not have any higher costs than other leading aviation countries .

It's almost as if you do not understand business viability in an environment where we already pay higher wages and salaries than competitor countries like the USA.

I despair.

Rodney Rude..... you are him/her? as you stated this is a "professional pilots." forum or used to be. You think a flight attendant should be making comments on a professional pilots forum the same way I don't make comments on how to serve coffee/tea on a hostie forum. Tinda I don't know you but i'm on your side on this we have refullers and hosties on this forum like Rodney Rude telling the world about shooting a ILS in the soup 100 above mins as a spectator waiting to refuel me and at best telling us why it should or could be done better ....go figure! Well done Tinda !

swh: your poor grasp of the English language makes your post difficult to interpret at best.

Please explain; are you trying to tell us that the bloke who wants a brand new car should instead settle for something second hand because it will save money? Or will the second hand car have more features but cost more?

Please decipher .... I can't.

Rodney rude: :ok: :ok: :ok: To true!

Pretty surprised this has made it to two pages....

Half of Pprune is going to be in the sin bin when the mods wake up!

This forum has "grown" over the years!?! You must be joking! This forum has never been as dead!! Especially the Aussie and NZ sections, on the 10 years I've been posting. It can sometimes be days between interesting topics..

It doesn't matter what you write, just keep posting. More hits equals more money for the owners from the advertising on the page.

Wheredidwhogo - 100% correct.

All you hosties on this forum, oops turbulance, seat belt light on, please return to your seats!

Hi Tindabella, on your side too

Thats gold!!