GA Private Ramp Check questions...
 

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone with any experience (or connection to CASA) may be able to help me with the following queries for a private General Aviation Local Scenic Flight or even just circuits.

I have no idea what to expect with a ramp check. Listening to different people's experiences it seems as though it's no different to being intercepted by a cop: it depends on who you get, what sort of mood they're in, etc with a wide range of outcomes.

Call me crazy, but I would love to be ramp checked by someone who is there to help educate me (so I know what I'm doing right, and can learn too from my mistakes) - but just the same I'm quite concerned about being ramp checked by someone just eager to write up as many infringements as they can.

As such, I'm wanting to prepare and cover myself for the worst and hope for the best, so referring to http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...-checks-ga.pdf I have the following questions:


Weather/NOTAMS:

How can I prove that I've "made a careful study of forecast weather and applicable NOTAMs". Should I have a copy with me for proof? (It's not required as I understand, but how else can I provide evidence)?

Will they accept verbal acknowledgement that there are no Notams, or the only ones was 'runway distance change', etc as proof? Weather I believe I'm OK with (if not flying more than 50nm) - but not sure about NOTAMS.

Fuel:

I've got 3.5hrs available, and I'm planning on a 40 minute local flight, (either circuits or a short local scenic around a small rural town, etc). Am I really expected to write all this down and do written calculations as well as in flight logs, or is this only for trips from A to B?

Normally I just do this in my head. (It's 9am. I can fly to 12:30 before I run out of gas. I'll be back by 10am - 2.5hrs reserve and never be more than 15 minutes from the strip - I'm fine with ample to spare). I could recall this verbally if ramp checked. Is this sufficient, or do I really need to log this down and maintain a fuel log throughout my flight? (Or even circuits)?


Appropriate, Current Charts and Documents

EFB's - Is this sufficient for me (with no paper backups at all)? It's not like I'm flying somewhere I'm not familiar. (In which I'd have paper all the way).

I'm doing a local scenic in a rural area I've grown up in my whole life not flying more than 20nm from the strip. Class G airspace so the only reason I'd be carrying it would be to comply with the rules anyway - I wouldn't even be referencing it during the flight. Same again with circuits. Is this enough?


Weights & Balance

One day I might be flying solo. (Circuits). Another I might take my young daughter up, or maybe a friend.

If I'm flying a 182. I know that I can carry full fuel plus an additional 250kgs easy without even pulling out the charts. So from prior experience I know I'm well within the weight and balance limits with more than 100kg's to spare.

I've got prior W&B checks where I've had more fuel and more weight in the plane.

Do I still need written evidence that I've already done a weight & balance check on paper for this flight - or is it sufficient to be able to verbally prove I'm within the limits and then demonstrate on paper if required?

(ie: Does CASA really expect people to do a separate W&B check each time they go out on a solo circuit with different fuel quantities)?

For other flights where I consider I need to do a W&B check (ie, taking a few people up where the margin will be smaller)- how do I provide evidence of weights?

Is it satisfactory to simply have their weights written down on paper with the charts, or how do I prove I've done it? (Do I have to take photo's of passengers standing on scales to make sure I'm covered 100% in case I get the ramp check from hell?)


Recent Experience

What normally happens here? Since I'm not required to carry my logbook (better if I don't) - once again - will they accept verbal acknowledgement. Will they allow me to scan and email a copy of my logbook after the ramp check?


As previously mentioned, a lot of this stuff seems like common sense, and I'd be happy to be corrected at a ramp check if I was falling short some where - but I'm just as concerned about making sure that I'm not going to get burnt for small things if I get the wrong inspector and I've slipped up somewhere.

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - GA pilot selected by CASA inspector answers some questions.

Thanks for the link, but unfortunately that page just looks like a web version of the link in my original post - doesn't actually answer the questions I have.

Just apply the reasonable persons test to yourself when you prepare for a flight and if some arsehole FOI gets all up in your grille and tries to apply 999 penalty units just quit aviation. What choice do you have?

Hi Guys,

I don't know how bad it's gotten (if it's gotten bad at all) - I'm just asking questions as to what would be required of me for the above scenario's, so they are a genuine questions.

The choices that I have as I see it are to:

a) Keep doing what I've always done, and run the risk of getting burnt. (Because I don't do a W&B check for myself when I fly, or a fuel log for local flights and I'm not sure what exactly is required of me).

b) Do absolutely everything for every flight regardless of whether it's circuits or a cross country/water flight.

c) Ask questions to find out.

I opted for option (c) which is why I'm here. :)

I'd just make sure I was taxiing when he turns up. Giving a dude from CASA a friendly wave (single digit style) is probably the most fun you could have in aviation.

As a general personal rule if I am outside the circuit I have at least one current paper chart and unless I have Two iPads, I have ERSA as well and please note that these backups must be accessible to the crew, not chucked in the back with the baggage. If you need glasses you must have a spare pair.

I'm not sure that "verbal" evidence of weather weight and balance and fuel logging will get you very far unless you haver perfect memory.

I generally do a quick back of the envelope W & B and If I’m touring I have a "trip book" which has my generic W & B for the tour written in.

Fuel log is just the back of a flight plan form.

However if you get a bloody minded FOI he will find something to ping you for and there is nothing you can do about it.

Its fear of one of these encounters with the capricious CASA that keeps me from attending fly ins, Birdsville races, etc. At least on the road with the police you can argue the point and the rules are pretty much set in concrete and easily applied. CASA? No such luck.

Hello Adza,

Understandably you're a bit anxious about something like this but in my experience as long as your courteous and have your ducks in a line a Ramp Check is very painless.

For your Weather/Notams it's not a particularly strenuous or costly task just to print these out quickly before you head off so I'd suggest just doing it. If you're just doing a scenic then you only need for one destination and it shouldn't take more than an A4 piece of paper to have this onhand. With the ERSA I believe you can just download the relevant ones online and print them out instead of purchasing an entire ERSA.

Aeronautical Information Package (AIP) | Airservices

For Fuel, CASA have this handy little A5 size laminated Fuel Log that they hand out for free, head into your local CASA office if you have one and ask them for one or you can get them online for free. A quick scribble each time with a marker you can wipe off after each flight and you're free and clear and they'll probably be impressed you're using their little tool!

SP088 - Flight planning kit ? Civil Aviation Safety Authority Australia

Appropriate Charts, just grab a local WAC to go with your EFB and a VTC if there is one that covers you and you'll be just fine, it's only a few beers worth and once again you never know if you might need it one day. Keep in mind you might know the area but someone who doesn't may be referencing a WAC chart to tell you where they are and the name of a location there may be different to what's on the Chart. As Sunfish said, keep it within arm reach as well.

Weight and Balance is just the way you described it and is what I did for both Skydiving and as a backup for Charter/Scenic Flight, just have one done up that represents worst case scenarios, maybe 2 or 3 that you can think of to demonstrate you know the limits of your aircraft.

With your logbook I'm not entirely certain about this, I am pretty sure they allow you a certain amount of time to bring this in to be checked but it's been a little while since I've been back in Aus and if you get a snarky FOI he may just decide to not believe you and you could be grounded, once again I don't particularly see the issue with taking your Logbook with you and if you're using the same Aircraft all the time then you'll have evidence of your flights in the Tech/Maintenance Log and that should suffice I'd say.

Doing the above will take all of about 5-10mins and give you piece of mind, if you have an FOI that likes to visit your field regularly and this is what has you concerned then after doing it a few times he may just get used to you and decide that you're not worth the effort of annoying each time as well!

Rule 1: Ask for the FOI's identification and check it is current - always. No current ID = no ramp check, only fair.

2. Weather, if you have logged into NAIPS there is a record of the login - weather sorted. Jot anything pertinent on paper or use Ipad or similar.

3. Have your licence and medical with you

4. Have a load chart if the load is anywhere near maximum in either C of G or Gross

5. Make sure that if you have anything on board it is covered by a cargo net and/or properly restrained

6. Have some sort of flight plan, if your using an Ipad make sure you have a charge lead. This will cover chart requirements as well. No electronic device, have paper plan and charts. have something in mind for a backup.

7. Make sure the MR is signed and current

All over Rover.

and if all that fails and the FOI is still being D..kh..d, there's the accidental head bob, aiming point should be the bridge of the nose for maximum effect.

Sunfish, Ixixly and Aussie Bob

Thanks very much for your detailed replies - this is exactly the sort of advise I'm looking for...

But I am wondering why having a paper WAC, or printed weather if I have an EFB. (Or if they're required, what's the benefit of a EFB at all - for small private local flights like I have mentioned)?

I don't see why I'd bother with a tablet if I'm going to have paper anyway.

I'd prefer just an EFB. As mentioend I could print the weather and notams to PDF and keep on my tablet as proof. If one device covers me for a ramp check. And if it doesn't and I legally require paper WAC's and ERSA (or printed pages) - what's the point of an EFB for these small fights at all?

I would be referring to none of them at all during flight - they're solely there for legal purposes.

Maybe someone can explain if an EFB / tablet by itself is legally sufficient for a rampcheck? (Plus license and medical of course).

Thanks about the W&B information. If I have "worst case scenario's" (which I do) handy - and can prove I come in 'under that' - then that's acceptable? Nice to know.

Thanks again for the advise...

What OzBob says!

Don't sweat it - I been flying both private and comical for 40 yrs and never been ramped.

There was that one time that some bod ran over to the 402 waving at me, but the door was closed and the engines running - so I gave him a wave and taxied away! :ok:

Dr :8

In 20+ years of flying I've been ramp checked only once, at the Avalon air show last year.

I wasn't the pilot in command so I didn't deal with the FOI but I think the main things he wanted to see were:

maintenance release current and signed for the day;

weight and balance calculation;

fuel calculation;

appropriate current charts;

current ERSA and notams.

And don't let him look in your nav bag if he asks. Refuse with a statement along the lines of I have given you the documents required by law.

And don't let him distract you from looking after your pax to and from the aircraft. Shut the door and tell him to look around the outside until you have finished your duties.

Adza, what you are doing sounds more than reasonable for a local flight. I have never been ramp checked in more than 4000 hrs so I think the chances are very small. Much more likely at an airshow or fly in. Put copies of your licence and medical on your tablet. You are doing far more than most flying locally. Doing what a reasonable person would do to comply is the main thing. Just enjoy your flying, be honest if you do speak to CASA but don't volunteer more than required.

It's good that one carries the things one should carry on a flight, licence, medical, maps etc. No problem. You are required by various regs to do so.
But are you required to prove it?

Show me "Ramp Check" in the Regulations.:=

My advice is don'be adversarial, that never works out well. ;)

I have had three ramp checks in 30 years and one of those was part of a company surveillance. I have just handed them all the required documents and have never had any problems. In one case the Chief Pilot got a letter saying how well I conducted myself.

In one I had to explain the difference between empty and operating weight to the FOI, I still don't think he got it when I was finished! ;)

Howie....we're you baffling with bullsh1t :E


Yep......the Dr tells the truth, at last! :}

Lesson 1
 

For the budding pilot...and all others as well.... NOTE WELL.

NEVER, EVER talk to CAsA person/s on your own, Period.

Never mind how polite and smiley he/she may be to start with...you will NOT know the agenda and if the person is of the "brownie point" collector type with a liver problem.,,, there could be an unhappy end result.

YOU MUST..record the conversation, take notes, phone record or video and get someone to be with you if you can. Having your own witness is best but you must make a record to protect yourself if things go off the rails.
They work in pairs some times so alone your words can be contradicted..and you dont have a witness.!

Make sure you ask the name, see the ID, ask their business/reason for visit and if entry to a hangar is required, they must ask permission to enter.
If inconvenient, get them to make an appointment for a mutually suitable time.
You have PYA.. they have CYA 101 training and then some.
Like the boy scout Be Prepared. :ok:

Howie....we're you baffling with bullsh1t :E


Yep......the Dr tells the truth, at last! :}

Yes, a good tip there Howard. Don't poke the bear.
But, I wonder if Ramp Check is just a big con. It isn't featured by that name in any regulation I can find, and I've not yet found the topic elsewhere in the regs. I think it will exist, in some cryptic fashion.
I'm reliably informed the following took place early this year:




There once was a couple ramp checkers,


Who thought they had quite large peckers.


They hopped the fence at Point Cook Airshow,


And headed off airside to go play Rambo.


The RAAF police weren’t having any of this,


Told them to leave, and don’t stop for a piss:


"This is not a civilian airfield – get your asses back over that fence, NOW!"

That's funny thunderbird because that's what happened and it couldn't have happened to someone so deserving.

Get your arse behind the fence meow :ok:

Be careful what you say to an FOI or AWI on a ramp check, however in all cases be honest and don't let them intimidate you. If you can't answer their questions be very direct and tell them that you don't know the answer.

If they are going to issue you with an NCN , take them to task there and then and get all the details. The gestapo behaviour hopefully will become a thing of the past. There are some good people in CASA who are trying to make a consolidated effort to turn the reputation of the place around, sadly these people have been the minority up until recently. As a result of the governments response to the review and the new DAS starting on Jan 1, I recon there might actually be a major reshuffle internally , a clean out of dead wood and even some good jobs for younger people with industry expertise to join CASA to help make the industry a healthier environment to work in.

This is the one that gets me, how many geological features move around that much as to cause a hazard to navigation in Oz?:confused:

IMHO for private operations just an Ipad will suffice. The backup is up to the pilot, not casa.

For commercial ops it is whatever the ops manual states ...

Air BP had a card made detailing all that was required on a ramp check.

For commercial ops, when the volume of paper work and shelfware equals the volume of the passengers your good to go.


Probably have to remove a seat but, to accommodate all the Part 61 shelfware alone.

Aussie Bob:

Correct, but you do need a backup in some form. Personally, I keep the paper charts. I also find when touring, that marking our position on a paper chart is something useful a passenger can do to keep them occupied as well as satisfying the VFR position determination requirement.

The latest definitive guide for AOC holders covers the issues I think.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset.../ops/233_1.pdf

Sunfish,
Is this in your private or commercial flying? Commercial no doubt.

;)

I'm wondering the same.

It makes no sense to get an EFB as a private pilot for local flying (where you won't be referring to anything) if you still require paper as well, just spending more money.

I've heard a number of PPL's mention that they use an iPad because it covers everything, is cheaper than paper (in the long run) and they don't require anything else - but reading the ramp checks list has me confused if this is the case or not. :confused:

For this reason I can't wait for ozrunways to be released on android. Buy a few $100 cheapo aldi tablets and stick them in the aircraft I fly and I'm done. Winner winner chicken dinner.

adzA, you are way over thinking all this. Grab your Ipad and go flying. Your chance of being ramp checked is so small it is almost non existant and nothing untoward will happen to you if all you carry is an Ipad for your paperwork.

Your type of mind set generally precedes giving flying up. Fixating on rules in this game is soul destroying.

This. /lock thread.

:confused:

All I'm trying to do is find out what is the minimum required of me so that I'm fine if I get ramp checked.

It seems others have given up and wont' fly to various events for fear of ramp checks. I would have thought that my desire to make sure I'm compliant and prepared (without spending more than I need) would have indicated that I'm more likely to stick around instead of quit.

I admit - I didn't think it would be this difficult or confusing. I shouldn't have to rely on the odds of whether I get ramp checked or not to be OK. It's disappointing that this seems unachievable and there's so many gray areas instead of clean answers to the point where I'm encouraged just to play the odds instead.

Let's look into the actual rules and what they say, and throw *my* take on it, and see what the consensus is.

First off. CAsA appoints "investigators" under Section 32AA of the Civil Aviation Act, or "Authorised Persons" under CAR6, and they must carry their ID card. No card? You don't have to comply. Or even acknowledge them as you turn and walk away.

IF they are appointed under CAR6, the following regulations may be attached to their appointment - ie, if they have "Regulation 50D", they can ask to see aircraft maintenance records...

• subregulation 30(4) - deals with inspecting aircraft, components & materials.
• subregulation 33(2) - deals with inspecting aircraft, components & materials to ascertain competence of maintenance people.
• regulation 43A - Says they can inspect the maintenance release
• regulation 50D - Says they can inspect maintenance records
• regulation 53 - Says they can investigate defects, however, if they want to look at records associated with with the investigation, they must order it in writing.
• regulation 227 -Says they can enter the flight deck, but only if the PIC is satisfied doing so won't endanger the aircraft.
• regulation 290 - Says they can shoot on or over a Federal airport.
• regulation 302 - Says they can look at your logbook, aircraft logbook, passenger manifest, freight manifest "or other documents relating to the aircraft"
• regulation 310B -
• acting under regulation 305. - Says they can enter any premises during working hours, and at "all reasonable times" have access to aircraft for the purposes of inspecting the aircraft
  
  CASA MUST NOT enter a premises without consent, and when asking for consent, MUST tell you that consent may be refused and may be withdrawn at any time. Should it be granted, they can do pretty much whatever they like. Take samples, photos, sketches, interview people, etc. CAA Sect 32ACB. So tell them no, they can't come in! But if they have a Reg305 permission, looks like you're screwed! :P
  
  CAsA gives the following guidance here for ramp checkee's.
  
  
  
  Quote:

  ---

  Originally Posted by CAsA

  The inspector will ask you for your CASA pilot licensing documents

  ---

CAR139 requires you carry the following documents at all times when operating wholly within Australian Territory:

• The Maintenance Release or an approved alternative, unless CAsA has authorised otherwise.
• The licence & medical certificate of the pilot(s).
• The flight manual, if it has one.
• If you're carrying any cargo, the bill of lading & manifest.

Note: You are not required to carry your logbook, however, CASR 61.365 requires you to produce it within 7 days. You can also keep an electronic copy, however, to "produce" this logbook, you must print out and sign each page as true & correct.


CAsA's reference to a Flight Review under CAR 5.108 refers to CPL holders only, not PPL's. However an identical requirement is found in CAR 5.81. You must have had a AFR within the previous two years. But without your logbook on site, how do you prove it? You can't and they can't prove otherwise. So so long as you've done it all's good.

You must also have had 3 takeoff's and 3 landings (off 3 separate approaches, presumably!) within the previous 90 days, in order to carry passengers. IF you're flying at night, these must be at night. CAR 5.82 refers. But as above, no logbook on site, no proof you're not current.

You are not required to keep a navigation log per se'. However, CAR 78 requires you to keep a log of such data "to enable you to fix your position at any time in flight". On a local junket, so long as you don't get lost (and what are the odds of that, really?), you've kept sufficient data to know your position I reckon.

CASR234 requires you to have sufficient fuel to operate the flight safely. This is subjective and will rely on your judgement, but the rules show guidance in relation to delayed landing clearance, depressurisation, engine failures in twins, etc. Most of which you're unlikely to confront on a local junket, but if you take off for a 90 minute junket with minimum fuel and a front forecast to hit 60 mins after takeoff, you could find yourself in the **** if you get ramped. Show you had fuel to hold for an hour, you should be alright. Common sense applies here. Good luck!

Pre-flight prep, weather & Notams. CAR 233 does not require you to check Notams, only that you have sufficient fuel on board & required equipment & instruments are functioning & the weight and balance are within limits.

AIP 1-10 requires you to look over ("must study") all info appropriate to the operation, and for flights away from the vicinity of an aerodrome, you must look at the weather, notams, etc. You do not need printed copies. You do not need notams & weather if you are remaining within the vicinity of your aerodrome. And you do not need to produce these documents to CASA even if you have them.

If you nominate a SARTIME to ATS or plan to operate in CTA other than Class E you must submit a flight plan. If you're staying in E or G, and don't want SAR, then you don't need a flight notification.


CAO 48.1 mainly relates to CPL & AOC holders, however, for PPL's you must not commence a flight if you will go over 30 hours in 7 days, 100 hours in 30 days, or 900 hours in 365 days. If you fly for a living and your employer can't roster you because you'll go over hours, you can't fly for fun either.


CAR 233 requires you to carry current maps & charts applicable for the route to be flown, provided by the AIP or someone approved in writing. OzRunways (and presumably AvPlan too) are approved in writing, so you can use Ozrunways instead of paper charts.


EFB's... CAO 82.0 does not apply to PPL's, only AOC holders operating Charter, AWK and RPT. CAR233 provides for OzRunways as a data source. There is no requirement for a backup for PPL's, either paper or another EFB, however you are required to have access to the relevant charts throughout the flight. "What happens if you drop your ERSA from the front cockpit of a Drifter?" I hear you ask... I dunno.


Personally, I'd have OzRunways on the iPad and a backup on the iPhone. The iPhone screen size is too small, but it's a backup, not primary. That's assuming you even need charts on your local junket...


Checklists. If your aircraft has them, they must be carried. CAR232(3).


You may carry 5 people in a 172, if two children occupy a single seat and don't weigh more than 77Kg combined. You do not require the names of passengers if you're operating a PVT flight.


If your plane has more than 1 seat, you must carry an ELT if beyond 50nm and it must be registered with AMSA! Portable ones must meet AS/NZS 4280.2:2003 or FAA TSO C91a and C126.

adzA, I have marked up my own copy of that document with my own notes from reading the referenced regs etc to see what actually applies to myself.
I am aware of FOIs using ramp checks as an education process so if you do reasonable stuff (perhaps just like you were taught?) then you should survive it. On the other hand, I heard a rumour here about some-one getting a hefty fine for not having a spare pair of specs with him at a ramp check?

adzi

Refer to this thread and read carefully all my posts. ready carefully. ;)
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...b-oz-rwys.html

Hope that helps with that question. :ok:

Fantastic detailed response KR. Sums up much of what I assumed (studying for RPL at the moment).

We have told you.

These are the folk who know they will be overweight/outside limits and can't be bothered making an effort. Ignore them.

For what its worth on my last (and only) ramp check I had forgotten to sign the maintenance release :ugh:

The dude from casa gave me the opportunity to sign it. Their idea is usually education, not harassment these days (from my observations).

Helpful posts from Bob and KRviator, I reckon. Personally, I don't find it too onerous and offer my own implementation as a suggestion as to how to handle the Sunday pie-run requirements.

I have a lightweight laptop wallet with a few zip compartments. The wallet lives in my "big" flight bag. Within the wallet - in various compartments - live my iPAD, a couple of VNC and ERC(L) charts, printouts of a couple of ERSA local aerodrome diagrams, licence/logbook, spare specs, ASIC, phone, money wallet, keys and emergency Minties. The idea is that I can quickly grab the laptop wallet and go for the Sunday jaunt in the puddle-jumper, with minimum overhead.

Within the puddle-jumper, I keep all the legally required documents (MR, flight manual etc) plus an operations log in which all flight times, fuel in/out etc are noted.

A lot of this stuff is common sense and only a little bit of attention to regulatory nuances gets you happily into the air for that $100 pie.