Jabiru engine failures
 

Looks like CASA think one too many Jabiru engines have failed.

Consultation draft released proposing restrictons on use of aircraft fitted with Jabiru engines. No pax, no solo students, no flight over populous areas. This could have a big effect on RAAus operations.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...c-cd1425ss.pdf

They have, however I doubt anyone at CASA and in particular in the sport office has even 10% of the engineering knowledge they need to asses the problem and "work a solution" through.

Give me 15 minutes with any of them and I can size them up.

Having said that the problem exists, and much of it I suspect is from maintainers either not knowing how to maintain them, and in RAAus land too many fiddlers who think they can make it better, and make it worse.



I am placing a bet that Jabiru will close voluntarily by end of the year or shortly there after, or they will go bust.

Nail in the coffin stuff here, even if they do not go ahead with the instrument.

Nail in the coffin indeed. It will destroy Jabiru's export market totally and devalue any Jabiru powered product here to the point where some of us will fly our aircraft until the first sign of an engine problem, then scrap it. I had already arrived at that conclusion. Others may just scrap it anyway, rather than live with the risk - whether real or imagined. Flying schools using the Jabiru product will go the way of the dodo.

It would be interesting to compare the failure rate of Jabiru engines here with that in the USA where they have been quite popular with home builders of Sonex and the like. Then compare with VW, Corvair, Subaru etc both here and in the USA. It may be that our Yank allies actually know something about the care and feeding of engines that we could learn.

im not sure if its operator error, as jabiru claim on every occasion, as there are 3 main failure modes.
Rotax engines are maintained by the same type of people, but have varied failure modes, and a majority are not related to the engine itself, but the accessories such as ignition modules, carbys etc.

to me, an obvious serious failure mode such as the through bolt failures to me suggest a design flaw. but sadly, IMO, jabiru seam to have their heads in the sand when searching for a solution. with no feedback to operators on the cause of a failure.
I have spoken to engineers that maintain jabirus, and have had no issues right to TBO, and they have described the reasons behind the failures, and yet, nothing is done to address the issue, No SB, no changes to maintenance manuals, nothing.

I think CASA is being a bit harsh with these restrictions, but when has CASA ever done anything to help improve aviation..... it would rather see loss of livelihoods, the demise of a local aircraft manufacturer and a large number of schools than try to resolve the issue and to improve the industry...

Jab engines
 

So does anyone know what the various failure modes are that CASA refers to?
What is the actual failure rate per 10,000 hours for these engines?
How does this compare to the failure rate of Rotax ( both 2 and 4 stroke) ?
Other engines used in similar aircraft? We don't yet have good numbers on the new Lycoming O-233 or the Continental O-200D I think as they are too new.
How many pilots/passengers/students/innocents on the ground have been killed or injured by these failures?
Until CASA put some numbers to these questions we are dealing with mere conjecture and "feelings".
I wonder where CASA are going to get any engineering expertise to investigate this? They are merely paper shufflers.
Oh and if in the near future I see another manufacturer/importer advertising a suitable replacement I won't be the least bit surprised, however this could completely wipe out small aircraft manufacturing in Australia. Wonder how Brumby Aircraft are feeling right now?
Any bets on what it will cost them to re-engine the already certified Aircruiser? Bet it is more than it cost to certify the whole aircraft even in inflation adjusted dollars.

CASA will probably go after Rotec radials next. Anything to kill Australian industry.

Part of the problem is that it's been scandalously difficult to get hold of good statistics and decent accident reports. I've previously banged on about the failings of RAA in that regard and suggested that if RAA weren't going to do the job, CASA must. Even my amateur spreadsheet compiled from the published gobbets indicates a serious problem and, as others say, resolving the problems would have been preferable to the seismic event we now have. But the fact is that the elephant in the room has been clearly visible, and something had to give.

In the end, it's not CASA's job to design or re-work engines but I hope they do take the opportunity to publish what information they have. At least then it might be possible to have an evidence-based re-work program, although I doubt it'll come from Jabiru based on past responsiveness. Whatever the source of the fix(es), I hope that the new RAA order buys into it to help the many poor sods who'll be affected.

Eyrie From the Raaus engine survey..
And the failure part..

Dont forget Jabiru sell a lot more engines to the USA, South Africa, and Europe... so, it might hurt, but wont be a killer..

Removed because when a thread gets merged……and the post that I was correcting is removed it makes me look like a higher spec dill than I am capable of doing myself! :-)

:ugh:

They are meeting with CASA tomorrow in Canberra at 11am with lawyers.

Brumby? The company manufacturing in China, that one?

they should be consulting with some decent engine engineers and solving the problem.

Too late! CASA Only needs to delay and Jabiru is toast and with it any other possible Australian engine start ups.

The mere threat of rule making will destroy sales.

This of course begs the question, asked already by others, of exactly what statistical data CASA is using to justify its position. I would assume a rock solid statistical case that demonstrates beyond doubt that the Jabiru engines are unacceptably unreliable.

I assume this is based on ATSB data...."oh wait! Do they investigate Jabiru incidents?"."...or is this the same as Pel Air? Reach the conclusion then construct the data that justifies it?

Empirical observational would suggest there is a serious problem with the engine concerned.
Would I send my wife, son or daughter on a scenic flight in a Jabiru powered craft.............???

NO, NO ,NO!!! (wife maybe in 20 years time....)

Would I as a 15,000+ hour pilot who has flown gliders and all things aeronautical own or operate one of these things????

NO!!! Flying is The art of managing risk, not playing Russian Roulette.

Since time immemorial , "ya get wot ya pay for"

What is most concerning is not the CASA response, but the lack of endeavour from the manufacturer to address glaring issues with the product.

While I am not a fan of these goverment d--kheads, perhaps this is the kick in the arse needed to get the Jabiru horse in motion.

Can't please some people. When CASA does nothing, they whinge, when CASA acts, they whinge.

It seems like the Jabiru engine is not particularly reliable. It also seems from other discussions on Jabiru's, that there is little to no help FROM Jabiru.

If Jabiru fixed the problem with the engines, instead of putting their head in the sand, then maybe they would not be in this situation now.

I'm glad CASA have acted....finally.

It would be interesting to see the statistics this is based on, and where Jabiru actually ranks in risk against other aircraft.

More, or less engine failure related deaths per hour than the Piper Navajo?
More, or less engine failure related deaths per hour than the piston engine fleet average?
More, or less engine failure related deaths per hour than from Robinson fuel tanks?

Interesting too that this comes so close to the implementation of the RPL, where CASA are basically offering RAA pilots equivalent licenses to fly GA aircraft.

What percentage of the RAA fleet has Jabiru engines? What percentage of the training fleet? If half your schools go broke because they can't send students solo for 6 months, and half your pilots switch to GA because they can't take a passenger in their Jabiru, it must endanger RAA in general. In that case, the cost of this could run into the hundreds of millions in failed businesses and loss of aircraft value.

I hope CASA have the (statistically significant) evidence to back it up.

I always thought the RPL was CAsA's Plan B, so that if they thought it was necessary (dodgy registration process, dodgy engines, dodgy training, dodgy whatever) they could shut RAAus down and shift everyone to GA RPL.

Looks like it might come to pass.

Bit of a puzzle though, the Jab engine - in our flying school the Jabs have done around 13,000 hours cumulative, and pretty much every engine has gone the full TBO despite all the crap that students can hand out. One engine failure over 7 years or so. And yet others the engine carks it after a few hundred hours.

Even so, would I buy one? Nope. Do I feel comfortable on a long flight? Not really.

No doubt I will be corrected where wrong, but at face value seems to me CASA have acted responsibly and reasonably here. They are between a rock and a hard place; but they have not grounded the fleet and they are meeting and consulting with interested parties. I'd say that was a good thing and a positive move, when you consider the alternatives.

This appears to be one of those problems – similar to an intermittent fault – if the thing breaks, then the decision is easier, i.e. if all Jab donkeys quit, every time it's a no brainer. But it seems there are those engines which go to TBO and beyond and those which are much less obliging. Mach. E has provided a possible way forward and a good, potential bargaining chip:-
And use....

CASA can't have the Jab fleet parked in paddocks and shopping malls around the country, but clearly they are prepared to discuss; and, by limiting the risks as they appear to have done, perhaps it's a sign. I reckon it's up to the manufacturer and perhaps the operators to show willing and prove to CASA that the product and operation can be made more reliable.

I can only hope this is the start of reformation and a non combative response from those affected can demonstrate that 'industry' is willing to cooperate in jointly achieving a sane, sensible solution – which would be a much better outcome.
Just saying

Indeed.

Bit of a puzzle though to understand it. I reckon I have half an idea about the various strengths and weaknesses both by design / manufacture and how they are operated/maintained.

The problem is I doubt the folk at CASA actually can comprehend it and work out what data means what. It will be a complex weave of data with hidden gems. Analysing the numbers (statistically) is one thing, but knowing how to weed out certain factors and weight them accordingly on this topic will be a headache.

Considering the number of movements and the number of recorded failures the failure rate is very low, but that is relying on accurate statistical data collection of course.

RAAus have published a response, part of it says this.

Could be a case of CASA pushing ahead with confronting restrictions BECAUSE other methods to fix the problem dont exist within their regulation. God forbid they would look into this probelm.

Most Jabirus are LSA, only way to be used in training.
They have NO way to implement any modifications without manufacturer approval. There simply is no process for outside upgrades to be made and retain LSA status.
Basically no STC process.

There are aftermarket improvements available and more coming however many owners cannot today or ever use them unless Jabiru approve it.

Its a bigger issue than just this engine, what happens when Euro company closes? No way to keep it in training use

This ham fisted approach is attempting to force a company to accept others work, assuming its for sale, and take reponsibility for it.

Sounds like a metallurgical level issue.
If I was running Jab I would be offering good deals for engine swaps for engines that reach TBO. Would be smothering a few high use engines with data logging. The engineer in me sees these failed engines as very valuable resources...why the hell isn't the manufacturer doing deals to get the cores back into the factory and under the microscope.

Ozbusdriver:

Without a competent statistical analysis of the failure types and rates, CASA and the RAA are wasting their time.

However I doubt that a technical analysis of failure modes is going to be much help to the Jabiru engine company for the following reasons:

1. Statistical analysis may not prove conclusive given that ATSB does not investigate incidents and the RAA seems to be wanting as well. There also needs to be a distinction drawn between what I will call "professionally maintained" engines and amateur maintenance of kit built aircraft. This needs to be done so that conclusions can be drawn about different fleets because failure may be maintenance sensitive (or not). Then there is the question of mod status.

2. Now that Lawyers are involved (if its CASA, the lawyers are calling the shots) Jabiru faces an almost insuperable barrier to a return to normal operations because it is going to be asked to present "negative Evidence" ie: Evidence that demonstrates that the engine is safe by industry standards. That involves identification of failure mode, corrective action then considerable testing to prove that the problem is fixed at the 99.999 percent confidence level.

However even this won't be enough. Now that CASA has got itself involved it has foregone the defence of "plausible deniability" if there is a multiple fatality. What will now be required of Jabiru is an impossibly high standard of evidence such as to be sufficient for a court to completely exonerate CASA from all liability whatsoever in the event of a future accident. I do not believe CASAs lawyers will settle for anything less and I think they will take their time before deciding.

I short-handed this message in an earlier post but my feeling is that I doubt the Jabiru cash flow can sustain such a marathon nor will engine sales continue while it is in this state.

If its any consolation at least CASA didn't wait till Friday at 4.30pm.

P.S. To be fair to CASA, I believe I've heard that Jabiru management has been somewhat less than proactive in the product improvement area, but I stand to be corrected.

Oh well, I am sure there is a Chinese company willing to buy up the design.

Cheap!

Without "Foster and Promote" in their charter there is no incentive for CAsA to work "with" anyone except the lawyers who's only brief is liability "risk management", forget about safety.

Industry has safety risk management programs.

CAsA has a Liability risk management programs.

Its easy to be critical of the company, but CAsA at times, especially if your confronted by the wrong person, can be impossible to deal with.

Its not just CAsA unfortunately the liability risk management model is infused right across the bureaucracy, which is partly why we don't make anything here anymore.

Jaba, with your experience, do you think this can be fixed quickly?

Seems like the major problems are still the through bolts (?rolled vs cut threads), valve guides (?cam/rocker design) and crankcase fretting. Of course, as Sunfish points out, we don't have any good stats and there is the maintenance confounder, but do we have the answer and is it as simple as an SB (I suspect not, but we can live in hope).

Pity Jabiru has chosen to head to Canberra with their lawyers instead of engineers. They have received poor PR advice - the legal approach and a letter writing campaign will not wash with CASA (or more importantly the public, ever fearful of those nasty ultralights crashing through the roof of their kindergarten), it just looks like a defensive cover up. Over many years, and across many industries, we have learnt that the only way to deal with these crises is to fess up and be cooperative in working to find a solution. The lawyers will only stuff it up and hasten the demise of Jabiru - we need experts here, not guns for hire.

There are times I hate CASA with a passion, but I have to agree with Kharon that it seems they had little option - Jabiru has failed to deal with the known issues and RAAus has failed in its responsibilities (I think after all the fiascos, CASA will give them trikes not above 300ft and roll everything else back into CASA/RPL and who could blame them).

You are not wrong JetJr.

LSA is a can of worms for aircraft manufacturers and owners.

If any one of these European aircraft manufacturers goes belly-up, then Aussie private operators and flying schools have 30 days before their birds are grounded and then transferred to experimental registration, thus rendering their flying school and income potential zero, or at least until they can get another aircraft on-line.

If Jabiru went under, the majority of schools with Jabiru aircraft are gone in 30 days.

I'm thinking though and I know it's different..... Cessna stopped making aircraft and General Aviation didn't cease across the world.

Given responses due Thursday 20th, expect the final instrument to be faxed 4:30pm on Friday 21st ....:E

Sunnie, me think there are too few...as many as there are worldwide...for a stat method to pick up faults. The best way is to get your hands dirty and start reading the witness marks and recording individual events to make the picture from that end rather than failure o'er 100000hrs in use. The company is small run so it should never have been difficult to change a design, process or material.

Sad turn of events, for Jab and the RAA. Makes us all look like a pack if diks really. I hope Jab come to the party and initiate real change, and I hope CASA can relax their grip around the throats of Jab and allow it to happen. Knowing the company tho, I dont hold much hope for compromise.

Both parties meet in a few minutes at 11am.

Let us hope for an outcome that keeps everyone happy.

RA-Aus is meeting with CASA today also.

Having been on the pointy end of a Jabiru engine failure, having completed the Jabiru Maintenance Course and having run a flying school which used a Jabiru I have a few insights into the issue.
Firstly you need to differentiate between the 2200 & the 3300, each engine has it's own but different problems. The 2200 is mainly through bolts and the 3300 is mainly pistons/rings and especially exhaust valves. Secondly you have to differentiate geographically if the engines are run on AVGAS. The West, including SA (and maybe NT) are supplied with the Green, high lead, fuel while the East is generally supplied with the low lead blue. This has an impact on lead build-up in the engine.
Thirdly you need to differentiate on equipment level, i.e. do they have the single CHT sensor on No. 6 or are they fitted with the Dynon and have EGT/CHT on all cylinders.
With regards to maintenance it is no so much wether it was a "Professional" or an "Amateur" but more a case of how often. For example, a J230 (3300 engine, running on AVGAS Green with single CHT) has a top end clean (deposits removed, valves lapped etc) every 200 hours and hasn't had a failure in over 600 hours. This is not part of the Jabiru recommended maintenance schedule. The point being some people will go above and beyond the "required/scheduled" maintenance or strip the engine/top end at the slightest possibility of a hint of a problem. When this engine goes to TBO they say they never had a problem or failure, which is true. The other person who just does the recommended scheduled maintenance per the book, to Jabiru standards, plus any AD's etc and the engine fails at 300+ hours whilst flying therefor generating a statistic.
Most of my experience is with the 3300, and the engine will go to TBO IF you clean the top end every 200 hours, modify the baffling to get an even spread of CHT's (illegal if 24 reg) and fit fuel injection (again illegal) or possibly re-jet to run really rich (25-30 L/hour at 75% power).
As for the 2200 engines I'm not sure, but one here is only used for private flying and generally flies at 2900-3000 rpm, doesn't do circuits, is maintained above and beyond recommended levels and is running nice at 400+ hours so far.
In my case the engine was maintained to the required level as per the Jabiru Maintenance Manual, only had the single CHT and run on green AVGAS. After doing the mandatory morning pull throughs with no issues, at 282 hours about 40 minutes into a 2 hour flight the engine ran rough for 10 seconds then stopped solid, found a paddock and got down with only a few bruises. Aircraft carted off to Jabiru by the insurance company, and when we tried to find out what went wrong with the engine they wouldn't tell us! When we asked for the engine to be sent back they said they can't because it had been binned! We got a new engine (we got pro-rata for the hours remaining) and our aircraft fixed but to this day have no concrete evidence of what happened.

And there is the problem Dexta. My school has had similar stories.

You might want to look here as well.
 

https://www.facebook.com/JabiruAircraft?fref=ts

The problem also appears in the Private Flying forum.

Petition
 

Sign the petition at CHANGE.ORG if you can.
Results will be forwarded to Warren Truss MP.

There appears to be overwhelming support from the aviation community that CASA is being too heavy handed here.

After 4 yrs of persistence, in 2013 we finally gave up on our J160 which had done 850TT for 2 engines and loads of grief in between. We were unable to rely on the aircraft, and lost sleep over student flying. We were most unhappy with the manufacturers attitude.

We sold it for a very acceptable price in late 2013. We've ordered a Brumby and take delivery soon.

So, todays crunch was a long time coming!

This is where a lot of the problems could be fixed.
The cooling air distribution is something very few understand at all.

Fuel DOES NOT COOL, it delays the Theta PP and lowers the ICP. Hence a lower CHT. This is the wrong way to cool an engine.

I reckon cooling issues and distortion of heads as a result are 45% of the problems, and the result from running far too rich the other 45%. 10% could be any number of things. Just shooting from the hip.

Agree with Jabba on this one 100%.

Jabiru engines in their native installations run hot.

Many an owner / maintainer simply pumps in additional fuel in an attempt to "cool" the engine. It will take a lot of fuel to cool a cylinder; in fact you may cool the head but not the cylinder. In fact by pumping in extra fuel you run the risk of it going through in gobs and causing issues; this is an issue in aicraft that are un-cowled.

AIRFLOW is the only way to cool these AIR COOLED engines. Unless you are running a stupidly lean mixture and cooking your heads, adding fuel will NOT help.

A 120hp Jab engine should in theory be able to run at around 19 lph IF cooled properly with AIR.

I can definitively demonstrate to anyone that wants to watch, that fuel will NOT cool a Jabiru engine or at least not to any significant amount worth mentioning.

If owners weren't skimping on engine monitoring and took the time to listen to the factory and fit 8 or 12 senders for CHT & EGT and take notice of what they are telling them, then a significant proportion of these issues would have been nipped in the bud a long time ago.

There are owners at my airport too stingy to fit the required instrumentation and thus are hitting regular problems like valves burning out. At least with monitoring, mixtures could be adjusted accordingly to rectify the problem. Some would say that an owner shouldn't have to do this, however if you have the ability to fit such devices and rectify the problems, you would be crazy not to.

from talking to other LAMEs who have had a good record with Jabirus, it could possibly be the construction technique that is the root cause, and also, not having any idea whats going on with regards to mixtures and combustion events.

the crank cased are bolted together, no gaskets, just metal to metal and a thin layer of silicon between the mating surfaces.. something i have been told is a big no no in engine construction... leads to fretting etc...

Don't you mean, Not lean Enough?

Yes Mr APS attendee. You know what I mean, stupidly lean.

Out of balance props certainly contribute to fretting.

There is now fretting across the entire Jabiru fleet, but fretting of a different kind.

Yep, a simple Bendix or Airflow performance style injection system. I reckon it could have two settings, and being mass airflow designs they could have a F/A ratio set for take off and climb, and one for cruise and descent.

Piece of cake with the right motivation. That and proper cooling, or even the Rotec water cooled heads. which would mitigate that issue. Although I prefer a proper air cooled design, it works well for Rotax and seems to work for others.

Along with some material changes on valve guides and we would solve most issues easily. I am not sure the hydraulic lifters are the go, and with the old solid lifter engines (less problems) and better F/A ratio's and cooling, most of the head creep would go away.

I see a solution…..if only we can get them to have me around the table. If anyone is reading this that matters.

I wonder if there's more to this than meets the eye. Jabiru don't actually manufacture these engines and I've heard that the guy who does has been concerned about the design being shipped elsewhere.

I have no concrete evidence - this is a rumor network after all - but there could be some inter-company politics behind this that has gone wrong, or right or something else entirely.

I feel for the guys making the Jab engine because they do know how to make them and they have a much better reputation overseas than they do here (sound familiar...?) It's also an industry with high costs and slim margins where redesign and re - certification is often prohibitive, let alone new designs.

It's something of a shame that CASA didn't knock on the door and have a quiet word to fix this up without destroying company and brand reputations, but perhaps they already have tried this and failed so they turned to the nuclear option. I don't know.

Whatever happens, it's always easier to destroy than it is to build up and plenty of Aussies seem to like to see destruction...