Mahindra leaving Australia.
 

Looks like Gippsland will be out of the aircraft manufacturing loop sometime soon...

Another one chased out by CAsA Bullsh..t???


"Safe Skies are Empty Skies"

I can't see how this relates to CASA.

Never underestimate the ability of Indians to screw something up. If it's not incompetence it's corruption. Maybe both. Doing business with Indians invariably ends in tears.

Thorn Bird,
More true than you will ever know, the CASA "iron ring" have never forgiven the intervention by John Anderson, when he was Minister, that forced CASA to issue the original type certification and C.of A.

This move to the US is not just Mahindra, much of the production, and most of the development work was moved to US pre. Mahindra.

As the chaps will tell you, development that took years to never in Australia could be completed in months with the FAA.

Petercoss,

That you "can't see" is a problem of your vision, it doesn't alter the facts.

Tootle pip!!

I'm surprised Gipps lasted here as long as they did.

It makes no sense to design or build aircraft (or cars or electronics, or much of anything else) in Australia. No federal government of either persuasion has ever had much of an appreciation for any economic activity other than digging dirt out of the ground and selling it.

I suspect the difference between Aus and US labour rates may have more to do with it than CASA. Light aircraft are expensive beasties to move to market as well, with both the Americas and Africa being closer to the US than Aus, it makes sense.

Sad to see another idea started here head o/s like the Sarich Engine...

Regarding Indian's, this from their own:
New Delhi: Almost one-third of Indians are "utterly corrupt" and half are "borderline", the outgoing head of the country's corruption watchdog has said...
20 percent of Indians were "honest, regardless of the temptations."

Pete old mate, your comment, a Tad racist?
Not to worry, what's the old saying? "never give a sucker an even break"?.

The poor Indians bought a pup.

Not because there was something wrong with the product, an incredible amount of Australian ingenuity, engineering excellence, and just "plane" passion went into producing a very saleable product, despite the best attempts of our supposed regulator to destroy it.

Regulatory fatigue defeated any chance of it being viable and remaining in Australian hands.
The Indians knew a good thing when they saw it, it was a very good thing. What they didn't see was a bureaucracy even more corrupt and incompetent than in their own country.

Pennies dropped now, "Oh!! corruption exists in Australia, we didn't realize, sorry, we'll be off now" and once again aviation business departs Australia.

Mahindra's motives for buying into GippsAero were raised in these pages last year.
I think somebody is saying right now... "Told ya so!".

Mahindra leaving Australia.
 

............

CASA is in part responsible for Gipps Aeros demise - that is from one of the founders as told to me personally during a tour of the plant.

The issue is time to market and CASA bull**** cost them at least Two years.

The "engineering" part is effectively complete so they only need low skilled process workers to make all the parts en mass.


I recently found a wealth of information when I browsed the listings for the Melbourne Supreme Court. Perhaps you could too?

Mahindra
The brand that obviously could not make it's mark on the ground in OZ not alone above it.
I will not miss it.

Simple really. Move to the states then congress will allow them to be purchased . Stay here and they won't. Remember the Aussie made troop carrier. They done the exact same thing. Sad really.
Cheers

I'm
Not
Doing
It
Again

:E

Radix
 

You hit the nail on the head, if you can't dig it up or grow it Australia isn't interested. We're a rentier country of vested interest.

$$$$$$$
 

And how much did the Government tip in to assist the delay ? Millions and millions !!! New bigger hangars, promises promises,all lies.

It was always going to happen.
Production costs (any industry) in this country are far beyond what the cost to market will bear.

Needless bumpf satisfying pen pushers is driving up costs beyond belief. The paying customer is no longer bearing the cost, and sales are suffering.

As stated, much of the Airvan is produced in the US already. It makes sense to assemble and market it from there.

Mahindra have merely maintained the Latrobe facility to meet contractual obligations in the sale.

Times up!

Oh sorry...i forgot everyone should be earning 100k per year for 4 hours per day actual production

Building things too far from the real markets is very costly. Australia has become a very expensive place to do business. All inputs from cost of labour, costs of Govt [CASA etc etc], and other issues including shipping and ferrying create a non-competitive financial situation. Even Boeing moved to South Carolina for the B787-10 and other bits to save on labour costs and other taxes from Washington...[non-union too]

Australia cannot compete on a global market [and our domestic market is minuscule] in any manufactured..:hmm:

...and yet if you want to look at high labour costs look at:

Sweden: Essentially a socialist state yet they have SAAB
Switzerland: Very, very expensive to operate there yet they have Pilatus
Japan: Mitsubishi (the new RJ)
Canada: Bombardier
even New Zealand: Fletcher

In a country as vast and aircraft-reliant as ours, the fact we have no homegrown aircraft industry and have to import the likes of Pilatus' from Switzerland is appalling.

I guess that means the end of the re-emergence of the Nomad? Not that that aircraft was ever a stellar example of what Australia could produce but the concept was sound and there is still a significant requirement for sturdy aircraft in this category (which is why the Twin Otter is back in production).

And the original GA8 was also a sound concept and, if the above is a done deal, will hopefully go on to flourish in its own right.

TBM, we can and do compete in manufacturing in the high value added sector. Where we cant compete is in volume manufacture of low value add items.

There is world wide over production of cars for the simple reason that a car industry underpins the other critical sectors of an advanced economy.

I know quite a few guys who are doing very well thank you, but of course they don't bleat to the media about how much money they are making.

As for GA, they were cut down by government indifference and CASA bastardry plus a good helping of USA industry "protection" anyone remember what happened to Victa? The GA labour force were cheap - moccasin wearing denizens of Moe many of them who were glad of a job.

The Government indifference part is rather the problem of "received wisdom" - of which the public service is full of:

Some examples:

"There is only room for Two domestic airlines and One international one in Australia".

"Australia cannot build cars because we have no economy of scale".

"Australia cannot manufacture aircraft".

"Australia cannot manufacture ships, tanks, missiles, defence systems and submarines".

Of course in defence of the received wisdom, anyone who has the temerity to propose, let alone challenge the received wisdom is destroyed if possible and any successful demonstration of actual production and performance is explained away as an aberration and any failure is pounced on.

The net result is that Australian industry rarely gets far enough down the learning curve to profit from hard won experience. The "Nomad II" would have been a cracker, as would the next generation submarine after the Collins class. The MEKO frigates were built on time and on cost at Williamstown as were the Oliver Hazard Perry class destroyers - which were better quality than the American version.

CAC turned out better quality engine components than GE, including turbine blades. There are other companies that have bettered anything the yanks and Europeans have made, the problem is mindset in the public service and a financial system that rewards real estate speculation rather than manufacturing.

Sunfish, many of your statements are partially correct. The upgrades to the Perry Class FFG's did not go well. Budgeted for six ships and only produced four until time and money ran out! I agree that the Governments of the day Fed/Sate/Local don't have a clue what is going on...

sunfish, the demise of the victa airtourer was through a falling out in the Richardson family which owned Victa. As to CASA and GippyAero, it was bad somedays, but the "Founder" wouldn't dare mention the CASA backed program which saved his company would he? This would also probably be the founder who invented aerodynamics. The bit about production in Seattle looks like (yet) another fishing episode from Mahindra

I'd argue we don't compete even on the high value-added sector. Most of what we still have is through inertia and a sense of pride and patriotism, This is gradually wearing off and over time we will see attrition rather than growth even in this sector.

Andy, I visited quite a few competitive companies as a case officer for a government department. Confidentiality prevents me from revealing names. However the one linked below is no secret. There are many more, quite a lot these days in mining services - think how do you automate changing a wheel on a huge mining truck? An Australian company builds robots that do it. Another Australian company showed up GE in the machining of Inconel.

The chief characteristic of competitive companies is that they shut up about it in public.

ANCA - The World's Most Flexible Tool Grinder

I'm sure you might see a lot of stuff in your travels, but ANCA was one company I had in mind when I suggested it was patriotism/national loyalty of the founders that kept them in this country. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but not 100% wrong.

I know there are a lot of very small companies around doing very clever things, but in the current climate they won't grow before they bugger off overseas.

I spent yesterday evening with an entrepreneur and very clever engineer, who was bemoaning the fact that mechanical design skills were in very short supply in the country. We have basically allowed the nation to shrink to below the critical mass in engineering/industrialization. Anyone with any high end skills disappears overseas. I came back to Australia in '08 after more than a decade away. To be honest, it was a bit of a mistake to come back. I see a move away again on the horizon at some point. :(

Fair enough Andy, you have more current experience than I do. The mining technology sector though seems to be doing quite well.

Sunfish ..... Remind me again ..... How long did you work in the Aviation Industry in Gippsland and in what capacity?

Interesting link to ANCA . . .. . .
bright buggers , . . .. . that's the
long and the short of it.. ..



http://www.anca.com/getattachment/Ab...300&height=378

He didn't, but because he once spoke to one of the founders, he now knows as much as someone that has worked there for years.

I also have a close link to Gippy Aero, probably as close as Sunfish's. Back in 1991 I went to a NYE BBQ in Gippsland and the man that owned the farm is one of the founders of Gippy Aero and he told me lots of information about the company.

Nah he would have been the Father of one of the founders and sadly Roly died suddenly last year

And another.....
 

From the Cowra Guardian; (Another article said bringing the Aircruiser, previously a 4 seat Victa design, into production, was part of the deal). The cynic in me fully expects to see the Hyosing Wild Pony suddenly appear on the Chinese market and Brumby to fade into oblivion.

"Brumby Aircraft are expecting to increase their workforce in Cowra fourfold, after landing a lucrative 40-year contract with China’s Aviation Industry Corporation.
The joint venture will see the company sell 280 aircraft to China, a further 80 aircraft to Australia and New Zealand, while establishing a flight-training facility for international pilots in Cowra.
Brumby Aircraft Director Paul Goard said the deal was an opportunity for Brumby to greatly increase its penetration within the Australian aviation industry, as well as target additional international markets.
“Our company is leading the way in aircraft design, manufacture and export. With the cash injection from this contract with AVIC, we will expand our marketing reach into New Zealand and then look further afield,” Mr Goard said.
“The small aircraft that we produce are by far the fastest selling sector of the aviation market, particularly in the US and Europe.”
Mr Goard said the company has approached a Chinese airline with a view to establishing a flight training facility in Cowra.
“This will not only expand employment opportunities at Cowra Airport, it will inject substantial funds into Cowra township, as up to 30 Chinese pilots at any one time will be under instruction,” Mr Goard said.
“The Cowra factory will remain as an R&D facility to develop the four-seat Victa aircraft. We are excited about the enormous growth prospects for our business and our home town. We are expecting to quadruple our staff in Cowra.”
A delegation from the giant Chinese aircraft manufacturer, AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) signed the contract with Brumby at a ceremony at Parliament House in Sydney attended by Deputy Premier and Minister for Trade and Investment Andrew Stoner on Thursday, July 31.
See your ad here

NSW Deputy Premier Andrew Stoner, Federal Member for Hume Angus Taylor and NSW Member for Burrinjuck Katrina Hodgkinson have congratulated Cowra’s Brumby Aircraft on the sale.
Mr Stoner said the deal was a vote of confidence in Brumby and regional NSW.
“This is a fantastic deal that will help not only create local jobs and grow the local economy, but will also improve our State’s ties with one of our largest trading partners,” Mr Stoner said.
Mr Taylor said the lucrative deal would put Brumby Aircraft on the world stage.
“I am often speaking about the enormous opportunities for Australian companies in fast growing Asian markets. This is where we see our trading future - in Asia and particularly in China - and I am delighted a local firm is stepping up to show other Australian companies the way forward,” Mr Taylor said.
Ms Hodgkinson congratulated Brumby Aircraft on what would be the start of a massive period of growth.
“This agreement means that Brumby will double the size of the factory in Cowra. The design and some of the manufacture of the aircraft will remain at Brumby’s Cowra base, which is an excellent outcome for the local economy, creating more jobs for the region,” Ms Hodgkinson said."

Aero, all I know is what I was told by one of the founders on the day I flew in about morning tea time. We got to talking and I was given a tour of the place. Other stuff, Ansett, CAC and as an engineering consultant to government.

I had the honour of visiting Henry Millicer to discuss his later designs, sadly no finance was available then or now.

Some of the most innovative products produced in Oz have been invented by farmers.

1. Mahindra is a majority shareholder, not the owner of what was GippslandAeronautics

2. I am not sure if a purchase is the same as an inheritance

3. GA 8 is not a brand, it is a model designation, as on the TCDS, Airvan is a brand name

4. It is possible that that 90% of the Airvan's materials and vendor items are imported from the USA, it has a US engine, prop and avionics and instruments and all the Alclad and fasteners are likely from the US as well, just like most aircraft regardless of where they are actually built. No aircraft unique components are manufactured outside Aus as far as i am aware.

5. The aircraft once they have been completely manufactured, assembled, completed and test flown at the factory at YLTV are knocked down for shipping. US customer aircraft are shipped to the USA and assembled in Washington state near Seattle for delivery to new owners. Not the other way round.

6. It would make sense to do some additional work in the USA which doeas not value add significantly with labour, but would decrease shipping costs, e.g. Insstall engine, prop and instruments in the US without sending them to Aus first.

7. Mahindra as majority owner has produced less than 100 aircraft since they assumed control of the company from Gippsland Aeronautics who produced the balance in their own right.

Shoddy journalism, misquotes and misunderstanding reported as hot info. Dont believe everything you read.

I have also done a factory tour and spoken with both the founders, and the Chief Designer. I have also toured Piper at Vero Beach with the Production Manager and Diamond with the owner. Diamond have their own cafeteria where you workers can have a beer at lunchtime, very civilized.

FAA is absolutely easier and quicker to deal with than CASA. there are many helpful individuals within CASA, but also some bloody minded, pig headed dills with a vastly inflated sense of self importance and an insistance that everything MUST be done to their interpretation of the Regs. One of those out balances 9 good guys. If GA now mahindra was a US based company they would have built THOUSANDS of Airvans by now.

Fantasic local product and great people deserve better.

Maybe Mr Mehra will give it a leg up. Lets hope so.

HD

Well Sunfish, you will just have to learn what a pinch of salt is and realise that managers (particularly in Australia) whinge a lot. They also tend to forget about government grants about thirty seconds after the last dollar of said grant is spent. I'm afraid the unpalatable truth is that the government has poured millions and millions into the australian industry without much to show for it. And of course nobody ever does them managers a good turn ...Did you get told the story about the Airvan seats costing zillions to develop whereas in actual fact the FAA tested the gippy seats in the FAA laboratory in Oklahoma City for nothing? Yes, the certificating authorities can be pains, and CASA does not have the correct charter in terms of a manufacturing industry, but one FAA office had the motto "hound em pound em ground em we're not happy till you're not happy" and if you really want to see some fireworks just go to any FAA cert office and watch the set to between the ACO and the MIDO. The FAA type certificates for Gippy products were handled pretty well, but still took appreciable time and effort. Nobody had a discussion with Henry ... never. You just sat there and had your ears chewed off ... in a totally charming way of course

HD... that would be a tour in the military sense ...........

HarleyD & aeromariner,


Thank you for those posts. Well put, both of you.


Cheers.

I stand by what I said. Henry didn't chew my ears off either. There is nothing that cannot be built in Australia if the mindset is corrected. I am sick of this totally defeatist "received wisdom" promulgated by the public service economists at the behest of commodity producers (price takers) in mining and farming.

We can and do make high value added elaborately transformed manufactures in Australia, I visited over 200 companies doing just that in my time with Government, they don't whinge, they shut up and make money despite "high labour costs" and all the other BS spouted by ill informed, lazy, know nothing commentators.

Here's an example Aero, around 1990 I was wheeled into a VP's office at GE Commercial engines division in Cincinatti and asked if Hawker would like a ten percent share of the new engine they were developing for the B777(?) we were building F404's successfully as well as suppplying GE with T700 frames, cases, turbine blades and other componetry.

GE wanted no more than Ten partners, you pay your tenth of development costs and you get the section of the engine to manufacture for life. GE's development budget was Five billion. That project would have provided at least a thousand jobs at Fishermans bend for decades.

I didn't even put the offer to management because I knew they couldn't finance it, partly because the Bankers don't want to understand manufacturing, the tax system penalises manufacturing compared to property development and the wankers in Canberra would tell you we couldn't possibly be competitive anyway. At the same time as I was contemplating this offer, assclowns like Alan Bond and similar folk were speculating in the billions, producing nothing of any value as the darlings of the share market.


As for the car companies, the real reason they aren't manufacturing in Australia is that our Government , now dominated by miners and farmers, doesn't want them here and plenty of other governments do.

Here some new information for you Aero, "economies of scale" are dead. They have been for Thirty years. The whole Kanban system and automation is designed to make the economic order quantity equal One unit. Frthermore, Australias relatively low volumes made the Australian component manufacturers masters of quick change tooling - they had to be. the result of that was that companies like Nippon Denso channelled a lot of short run low volume production to Australia because we could do it faster.

Did you know that Hawkers at Fishermans bend developed double cut plunge grinding of turbine blade roots? It doubled production rates and improved quality out of sight. GE forced us to give them the technology, they have a habit of being technology thieves almost as bad as the Israelis. There are whole swags of technologies where we compete very successfully internationally despite the obstacles the effing Government puts in our way.

Did you know that despite "free trade" agreements America viciously protects its manufacturing base? Mahindra will get the red carpet treatment from Washington State and the U.S. Federal Government for bringing the production line to America, back hander subsidies and grants included.

The reason we don't have more manufacturing in Australia is learned helplessness. The expert keep telling you it can't be done and are determined to prove themselves correct.

thank you for that and the recollection prompted. Henry used to come down out of the design office at Milperra to have a chat with the young apprentices working away drilling and deburring. He would tell us
about his early days in Poland . . learning to fly on a Hanriot . .. and how Arthur Bage head designer at Percivals took all the credit for Henry's work on the Provost.