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SunnySA,
There was a C206, at 8000ft transitting Williamtown, bound for Bankstown. It had no problems. One thing I'd like to make clear, a clearance was being arranged, it just had to be at 7000 or 9000, as MDX was catching AZC. FIS5 went back to MDX to ask what height he'd prefer, but was told they were resuming planned track. I can't recall what the weather was like further south, I'll have to look it up for you and get back. I have the COMPLETE transcript of all communications, from everybody (MDX, FIS5, Willy and Sector one, so that you may see for yourself what was going on prior to him turning west if you want me to put them up? |
I always find it interesting when someone on the ground sitting behind a screen (or not) cops some blame for an aircraft accident. In this case the pilot was clearly the one make ALL the decisions except for the one that allowed him through Willy.
Willy non clearance in this case was a small contributor but not the cause. Any pilots flying in and around Sydney for any more than five minutes know Willy is unpredictable with clearances and the reality is if your planning this area you need a back up plan. Its common sense. I cant see in all seriousness how we can blame Willy (no I am not military). To draw a comparison - A friend of mine crashed in a Cheyenne at Benalla back in 2004 and the controllers were found partly to blame there because they knew he was well off course for some time and they didnt say a word to the pilot even though he began an RNAV in bad weather. In that case I agreed with that finding. When you stack the odds against yourself like this guy in MDX did it only needs a couple of things to go wrong and your in serious trouble very quickly. Plenty of other outcomes were possible had the pilot taken better decisions - and we are all not immune to this. But yes Dick, in this day and age we should have better ability to plan and fly through Willy - especially since we are all having to invest in ADSB and a very high level of fault tolerant GPS units. Surely we can use this technology to provide a safe lane (either IFR or VFR) through. |
LeadSled
Can any of you actually justify the vast swathed of military airspace in Australia, compared to USA or UK/Europe |
And there lies the point. He had to ask for cleareance. Why. Why did he need cleareance. Because of the raaf that's why. May be just may be he would have all made it if he could see some lights. Flying into that he had no chance. Is the pilot got some fault yes he has.
Also can some one tell me why we need to turn runway lights on. The rest of the airport lite up like a Xmas tree but we forced to turn runway lights on. |
Dick did not say that it was all the RAAF fault, the program acknowledged the actions of the PIC, but THE WHOLE POINT was that a clearance coastal would have almost certainly broken the building chain of events. It only takes one action to prevent the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up, and the potential accident does not happen. A prompt clearance to track coastal through Willy would almost certainly have been that action. Emotional arguments aside, the PIC did them in in the end, really, not the RAAF controllers. Good luck to you, Dick, if you can get freer traffic flow through Willy airspace, but as I said earlier on, the cynical spin is too much. |
If he could have gone costal would he off. Would he have pick to fly over tiger country and into that strom I would have thought not. Should that base be there from the coast to the range no it should not.
The Australian aviation system is governed by old military rules to this day. Rules from the 1914s that are still forced on use all. Ex military personal that leave and get jobs in casa. Like one I heard ask where is you duplicate inspection for knots on the vent flaps on a hot air ballon. It's this same mentality that is still being forced apron us all. At the end of the day life's where lost that should not have been. Simple chooses not made but the fact remains if he had of been able to go costal there was a better chance for him to get away with it. |
My very good friend Wing Commander C.J. Sugden (DFC and Bar) once said.
"The system is designed to allow an average pilot having an average day to get his passengers home safely " Personally, as i said, sending a NVMC single engine out over the Barringtons on a bad night does not measure up, no matter how average the pilot might have been. And in this case, for no reason other than "this is our airspace ". |
Just so it's clear..
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
(Post 8499078)
The program will cover that terrible VH-MDX Cessna 210 crash in the Barrington Tops area. This is where five people were killed and the crash site has never been discovered. The families of those on board have never had closure and been able to arrange proper burials.
I was extensively interviewed and probably had a different perspective to most. I blame the situation on the military airspace at Williamtown . |
RatsoreA
There was a C206, at 8000ft transitting Williamtown, bound for Bankstown. |
I very much dislike second guessing anyone (there for the grace of god go I and all of that stuff... But whilst we are in the situation of calling heavily on the speculation brothers.... to add to what AOTW has said).
"ATC, MDX, how long is the anticipated hold?" "MDX, ATC, Approximately 2 minutes.." "Copied, Happy with that, MDX" ---------------------------------------------------- For all of those barking about the present day situation.. Considering there are almost 100 military aircraft on the base, operating for the majority of the time under IFR, a wide variety of commercial operations, the vast majority of which are IFR, why does it come as a surprise that in a VFR light aircraft that you are the lowest on the priority pile? |
Yeh Vfr light aircraft flying into **** over **** shot country with problems five killed lowest priority Yeap and some of you just won't to have ago at me cause of the way I write.
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Considering there are almost 100 military aircraft on the base, operating for the majority of the time under IFR, a wide variety of commercial operations, the vast majority of which are IFR, why does it come as a surprise that in a VFR light aircraft that you are the lowest on the priority pile? (Can you give the dyslexia schtick a rest, yr right?) |
Ummm not given any mention to being dyslexic creamy. You done that. I was referring to syntax
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Thanks 'Leady' for yr last post as I was losing interest fast here with all the bitching about Dick going on.
The 5 men are gone & at this stage so is the plane but hopefully they will find the plane someday thru even more awareness such as this Ch 7 program & put to rest not only the poor unfortunates but the whole sorry saga of a story, forever! Wmk2 |
Questions:
1. If you can't plan to WLM, then why did AZC have it on his flight plan as an alternate? 2. Why blame the Willy controllers when it was the civil ATC that caused all the delays? If you read the transcripts - which are freely available online via the National Archives website - when first asked for a clearance through Willy airspace, the Willy controller said no problems. When the FIS tried to co-ordinate the clearance through Sydney Sector 1, it was they who said clearance was denied because they would not accept VFR in the airspace. It was during this time that Willy said that transit through at 8000 was unavailable due slower preceding traffic (AZC) but 7000 or 9000 was available. When they asked for coastal, Willy once again was happy but Sydney said no VFR above 6000 and that they had some concerns regarding the weather below 6000 coastal and there would be a delay whilst they checked it out. At no time did the Willy controller deny entry. I might also point out - IIRC - that it was Sydney that asked for the 4000 squawk with ident. When the Willy controller was asked if he held MDX, they said that they had a primary paint (at 46nm?) but 4000 wasn't programmed into their radar. They asked if the aircraft could squawk 3000 with ident and it was confirmed as identified by Willy. Dick, I respect you but why this crusade to persecute the military regarding this tragic accident? They did absolutely nothing wrong. |
I agree a review of RAAF airspace use is far overdue not just at Wily but all over Australia, but to say the RAAF is to blame for this accident is drawing a very long bow
If a can digress for a moment and talk about my experience in the same area less than 10 years after this accident. My flight was a day VFR full reporting flight from CG to BK. I had a PPL and building hours for my CPL. The WX forecast indicated it was good VFR conditions all the way to BK. From TRE I planned to use the inland route behind willy. Approaching TRE I noticed the WX along the coast seemed to be less than ideal VFR conditions, so I was pleased my choice to plan inland. As I approached the start of the inland route I noticed the WX was starting to move in around me, I did an orbit to see if I could make it back to TRE, no joy WX had moved in. I thought should I go down to 500' and try to scud run, not a good idea. Above me was clear so, climbed, passing about 5000' the engine started to make a strange sound and SYD FIS made a broadcasting stating aircraft to the North West of Willy you are about to enter Willy restricted areas. I knew they were referring to me so I advised them of my problems and that the WX looks CLR towards Willy and I'm tracking that way. I levelled out around 6000-6500 and a few mins later I was told to contact Willy. I informed them I was a VFR pilot with the weather closing in, engine was making an usual sound and required DCT willy. The controllers did a great job assisting me around the weather and providing guidance all the way to willy. Upon arrival in the circuit area, the X-wind was fluctuating around the limits of the aircraft (and me). The controllers offered me the use of the taxiway Hotel (long taxiway into wind) and I believe it was used at times by the FAC Winjeels, if I needed it. In the end I landed on 12. Submitted the required paperwork (225) and that was the end of it. So why my long story, well I think it shows the PIC of MDX had another option that he didn't take. Once the WX started to close in, he could have done what I did and just turn towards Willy and advise SYD FIS he was in trouble. Unfortunately we will never know why he didn't do this but perhaps the reasons were; 1. Fatigue, the flight from CG to BK was 3 hours, and a rough guess the time down from North QLD to CG would have been around 4 hours. So allowing for all the ground time before DEP and on the ground in CG he would have been on duty for around 8 -9 hours at the time of the event. 2. Commercial Pressure: Although the flight was private, how many hours had he worked out to complete the job. Perhaps he calculated it on the min time with perfect winds and any delays would cost him. So who or what is to blame for this accident, well there is not one single cause as in most accidents. The delay in RAAF providing clearance was only a small factor in the events that lead to this accident. I'm not trying to defend the RAAF, but other then this tragic accident how many other accidents have been attributed to aircraft not bring able to a clearance through a RAAF airspace. My guess is there have have been more accidents caused by pilots scud running to avoid Civil airspace. So rather than point the blame at one department and get so angry and uptight about it. Use that energy to educate the current generation of PPL/CPL pilots about what happened that night, such as NVFR into IMC, flying an aircraft that wasn't serviceable and provide them with tools on how to avoid the same traps. For the families hopefully the wreckage will be found soon, so they can finally get some closure. |
evilro
I didn't see where dick had ago at the raaf controller. What I see is there is no need for the restricted airspace to be so large and no lane to use with out cleareance and not over tiger country. Had he been able to go costal with visible lights chances are he may have made it as it was he had zero chance. |
Evilroy
Bloody brilliant. :ok: :ok: The use of facts in your post was a breath of fresh air. Genuine thanks. |
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I didn't see where dick had ago at the raaf controller. What I see is there is no need for the restricted airspace to be so large and no lane to use with out cleareance and not over tiger country. Had he been able to go costal with visible lights chances are he may have made it as it was he had zero chance. 0934.36 SYD FIS: Mike Delta X-Ray, roger. Is the aircraft equipped with pitot heat.... heating? 0934.40 MDX: Its a single... and we'll try to continue our flight plan. 0934.45 SYD FIS: Mike Delta X-Ray, roger Sydney. The lights are on at Maitland. The lights are on at Maitland. 0934.57 MDX: Say again, Maitland. 0934.00 SYD FIS: Mike Delta X-Ray, Sydney. The lights are on at Maitland if you wish to try and divert and make a landing at Maitland. 0935.05 MDX: Mike Delta X-Ray. No. We thought we had a... Just to compound things, we thought we had a cockpit fire but... ah... we seem to have resolved that little problem. West Maitland, but would appreciate if you would leave the lights on for a while. |
Originally Posted by Statement from Chief of Air Force Air Marshal Geoff Brown AO
Contrary to the program’s story, civilian aircraft can and do fly through Williamtown airspace every day. Williamtown Air Traffic Control handles more than 34,000 civilian aircraft movements through the Williamtown airspace each year, including 1.2 million passengers who use the Newcastle airport terminal situated at RAAF Base Williamtown.
For civil aircraft flying visually through Williamtown airspace, Air Force created three specific flight paths that are designed to provide civilian access to Williamtown airspace and to deconflict with military and other civilian aircraft. Air Force operates a multi-layered air traffic control system which is regulated by a comprehensive regime of independent audits and evaluations and is integrated with Australia’s national Air Traffic Management network It is routine to restrict access to military airspace for both safety and security reasons. Such restrictions provide separation from hazardous environments including air weapons ranges. In fact, Australia is more generous than many nations, allowing civilian access when requested and whenever safety and security allow; and we operate formal airspace sharing arrangements at Williamtown, Darwin and Townsville. In an emergency, civil aircraft can access defence airspace and airfields for emergency landings. "Yeah, no, forget all that. I was wrong and Dick is right" :rolleyes: Attributing this tragedy to the Air Force is sensationalist and incorrect and I note that the program did not seek any comment or clarification from either Air Force or Defence in relation to this incident. It is disappointing that these unsubstantiated claims were aired on national television. Air Marshal Geoff Brown AO Chief of Air Force |
Mhayli
I will go one step further and post it, Statement from Chief of Air Force Air Marshal Geoff Brown AO – Sunday Night (1 June 2014) 2 June 2014 | On the Record On 1 June, Channel 7’s Sunday Night program aired claims by Dick Smith, incorrectly claiming Royal Australian Air Force contributed to the crash of VH-MDX in 1981. While the death of the pilot and passengers is tragic, and I hope the search for them will bring closure for their families, Air Force cannot speculate as to why the pilot of VH-MDX chose to not fly through Williamtown airspace, as was done by numerous other civilian aircraft at the time of the accident. The program acknowledged that the aircraft had mechanical issues and instrument failures, including a failed altitude indicator, automatic direction finder and vacuum pump. The [then] Bureau of Air Safety Investigation (now the Australian Transport Safety Bureau), which investigated the incident at the time, found no fault with RAAF or military air traffic control. The facts of the Bureau of Air Safety Investigation into the VH-MDX accident on 9 August 1981 are available via the National Archives of Australia. On the evening of the disappearance of VH-MDX, Williamtown Air Traffic Control immediately offered a clearance for VH-MDX at an amended altitude (of 7,000 feet or 9,000 feet) to ensure separation with a preceding civilian aircraft (at 8,000 feet) that was already inside Williamtown airspace. This was done without delay and more than 30 minutes before VH-MDX reported entering bad weather. It is incorrect to claim that Air Force caused VH-MDX to fly an unsuitable track. The presence of civilian aircraft in Williamtown airspace demonstrates that civilian aircraft were permitted to transit Williamtown airspace. Contrary to the program’s story, civilian aircraft can and do fly through Williamtown airspace every day. Williamtown Air Traffic Control handles more than 34,000 civilian aircraft movements through the Williamtown airspace each year, including 1.2 million passengers who use the Newcastle airport terminal situated at RAAF Base Williamtown. For civil aircraft flying visually through Williamtown airspace, Air Force created three specific flight paths that are designed to provide civilian access to Williamtown airspace and to deconflict with military and other civilian aircraft. Air Force operates a multi-layered air traffic control system which is regulated by a comprehensive regime of independent audits and evaluations and is integrated with Australia’s national Air Traffic Management network It is routine to restrict access to military airspace for both safety and security reasons. Such restrictions provide separation from hazardous environments including air weapons ranges. In fact, Australia is more generous than many nations, allowing civilian access when requested and whenever safety and security allow; and we operate formal airspace sharing arrangements at Williamtown, Darwin and Townsville. In an emergency, civil aircraft can access defence airspace and airfields for emergency landings. The story also implied that VH-MDX was unreasonably requested to hold. Aircraft are routinely required by civilian and military Air Traffic Control to hold or adjust the aircraft’s track, altitude or speed, to ensure separation is maintained with preceding and higher priority military and civilian aircraft. The likelihood of holding is increased for aircraft that do not submit a flight plan because the aircraft’s data needs to be manually entered into the Air Traffic Control system. Attributing this tragedy to the Air Force is sensationalist and incorrect and I note that the program did not seek any comment or clarification from either Air Force or Defence in relation to this incident. It is disappointing that these unsubstantiated claims were aired on national television. Air Marshal Geoff Brown AO Chief of Air Force I am also told by a very credible source that Dick Smith was approached for help in the search effort. Not for money, but help in terms of contacts, resources, advice....anything. But they were fobbed off. What is your take on this? |
Nothing more needs to be said. Unfortunately it's become obvious now Channel 7 don't give a rats ass about the MDX story, they're running this purely for the ratings generated by headlining unsubstantiated allegations. Not sure why I'm surprised really. :ugh: |
Whether Mr Smith assisted or not I feel is off topic and making the discussion personal. However, what is apparent is that there are two sides to this story. The one posted by Jabawocky is based on fact and the official accident investigation by professionals in that field. The other is based on unsubstantiated claims by an enthusiast.
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Mhayli,
Not "by an enthusiast" but "an enthusiastic amateur". :rolleyes: |
kingRB
Not sure why I'm surprised really. |
You might want to change the callsigns of your aircraft Dick. Fat chance you're going to get a clearance through Willytown now! :E
|
I just can’t believe what I am reading on this site. It’s amazing – more than thirty-one years later how people still have their minds fixed on rules which are decades out of date. Let me give you a little bit more of the facts. I am taking them from the excellent publication called, “Operation Phoenix – the Theoretical Search for the Crash Site of Cessna C210 VH-MDX” written and researched by Donald E Readford. It is an excellent publication. Wha? I'm sincerely hoping that is sarcasm because that is the most pants on head retarded publication on the MDX search to date. If you honestly believe that 'publication' deserves any merit, I have lost whatever faith I had in any and all of your endeavours. :ugh: |
NVFR is an oxymoron but cross country in a light single, is more like a death wish.
Dick, whilst I respect the motive I must take issue with methodology. As painful as it is, the cause of the accident is clear. I am only saddened by the fact that there was no-one else on board who could smell the impending disaster when clearly the PIC could not. A simple PAN call and direct Willy was all it would have taken. Over the past 30 years, I have flown into SYD from HKG many times and always get a bit of a chill up my spine at the top of descent. I hope the wreckage is found soon. Maybe this thread will provide another impetus to allow closure. |
The easiest way for people to establish the facts are to check out the transcripts themselves. Go to the NAA home page:
National Archives of Australia Select "Search the collection". On the basic search page, under 'Keywords', enter VH-MDX. There will be a single result; select "view digital copy". The first 22 pages are news clippings. Read the transcripts, from page 241. Particularly pages 244 - 245 (time index 0853 for the inital Willy clearance and Sector 1 saying they could not accept), and page 246 (time index 0853.42 for the initial coastal request to Sydney Approach) to page 248. Pay particular attention to time index 0856.12 where FIS says "Willy says he'd be able to clear him through his area". Dick, I think you should make a public statement that the RAAF did absolutely nothing wrong and in fact assisted in every way in getting that aircraft a clearance. |
In response to an earlier post - "this crap does not occur overseas." Oh yes it does. Absolutely - have a look at China. Airways designed all over the place to avoid mil airspace. Try entering China over Urumqi bound for hong Kong. True bearing would be about 120 - you end up heading about 020 for a long time. Often told airway closed, or once we flew HK to Shanghai at around 16,000 ft.
Many times I have been vectored around active mil airspace in the US. Australia suffers because direct tracks or airways are drawn through mil airspace so the result may mean clearance not available. In many foreign countrys airways are just drawn up around mil airspace so we don't get the delays. We don't actually notice a problem, but we are always flying extra track miles. At least in Oz we get the chance of direct tracking when available |
have a look at China. |
Wha? I'm sincerely hoping that is sarcasm because that is the most pants on head retarded publication on the MDX search to date. If you honestly believe that 'publication' deserves any merit, I have lost whatever faith I had in any and all of your endeavours. Unfortunately I agree, there are assumptions made on the radar / ATC data and aircraft performance that are fundamentally incorrect. These assumptions make it useless for any accurate calculation of the actual crash site, especially when talking about a place as nasty as the Barrington Tops. |
The Air Marshal is clearly ill informed. This is a damning reflection on the advice Air Marshal Brown receives. Let me quote from Air Marshal’s Media Release:
“The likelihood of holding is increased for aircraft that do not submit a flight plan because the aircraft's data needs to be manually entered into the Air Traffic Control system”. “The restrictions are still there. You can’t file a flight plan across the top of Williamtown”. “you can do something with this show if we can get these rules changed, as they will save lives in the future”. “The likelihood of holding is increased for aircraft that do not submit a flight plan because the aircraft's data needs to be manually entered into the Air Traffic Control system”. Once again, I stand by what I said and that is the only reason MDX did not continue down the coast at a low level in clear weather conditions was because Williamtown was active that night - and I understand there weren’t even any military aircraft flying! It was an outrageous waste of life caused by archaic military rules – and nothing has changed. Anyone who doesn’t understand this has a real problem. |
Evilroy – you want me to make a statement that says the RAAF did absolutely nothing wrong and in fact assisted in every way in getting VH-MDX a clearance.
Well, I won’t be making that statement because it would be a lie. For a start, if the military airspace had not been active that night or had not existed in that location, the pilot would have cruised down the coast in good weather conditions and arrived safely at Bankstown. The only reason the pilot was forced inland via a point called “Craven” was because the military-enforced regulations at the time stated that pilots could not flight plan over Williamtown. That meant the Willi Controller had no information that MDX was heading in his direction and wanted a clearance. That restriction remains today – that is, no-one is approved to file a flight plan from Coffs Harbour overhead Williamtown if Williamtown is active and that means aircraft today are forced inland towards the Barrington Tops. Have you noted that the Willi Controller knew that the aircraft desired a clearance, but rather than take the holding the Pilot decided to head via Craven then to Bankstown. Have you noted the Willi Controller did not inform anyone when the aircraft turned to the west and flew at 90 degrees to the required track heading over the Barrington Tops towards Scone? Yes, I know you will say, “it was nothing to do with the Willi Controller because the aircraft wasn’t in his airspace”. So, just let five people go to their deaths…? Evilroy, I can tell you I will not give up until I have this ridiculous restriction removed from the Regulations – that is the one that pilots filing a flight plan south of Coffs Harbour are prohibited from flight planning over Williamtown if it is active. This is an outrageous restriction that clearly substantially reduces safety and will lead to yet another similar accident as aircraft are forced to the west into the mountains. |
Dick,
being forced to the west into the Barrington Top mountains as MDX was thirty years ago the only reason MDX did not continue down the coast at a low level in clear weather conditions was because Williamtown was active that night Another thing you said on TV was also incorrect, after the uncertainty phase was declared, by FIS5 not a PAN or MAYDAY by MDX, FIS5, Sector 1 and Williamtown did everything they could do to help him out, completely without regard to airspace requirements. They were in fact trying to direct him to come to Williamtown, but he chose to resume his planned track as late as 3 minutes before the aircraft was lost. Evilroy – you want me to make a statement that says the RAAF did absolutely nothing wrong and in fact assisted in every way in getting VH-MDX a clearance. Well, I won’t be making that statement because it would be a lie Yes, I know you will say, “it was nothing to do with the Willi Controller because the aircraft wasn’t in his airspace”. So, just let five people go to their deaths…? |
Was "going to ask him". Are you now going to confirm he was never actually asked if he wanted 7000 or 9000? Why wasn't he given this option?
You say " to impatient to wait for a clearance". How do you know that he wasn't concerned about how he was going to hold outside an invisible line in the sky? He had no DME. How would have you held OCTA in that case? If they did everything they could to help him out why didn't they at any time direct him onto a frequency where the operator actually had a radar screen? At all times all communication was to a radio operator that had no idea what direction the aircraft was heading. Did you note that BASI never mentioned this important point? If he had been on a radar frequency the pilot would have been told nearly 30 minutes earlier he was heading in the wrong direction. Probably still be alive today! |
You say " to impatient to wait for a clearance". How do you know that he wasn't concerned about how he was going to hold outside an invisible line in the sky? He had no DME. How would have you held OCTA in that case? Was "going to ask him". Are you now going to confirm he was never actually asked if he wanted 7000 or 9000? Why wasn't he given this option? Did you note that BASI never mentioned this important point? If he had been on a radar frequency the pilot would have been told nearly 30 minutes earlier he was heading in the wrong direction. Where does it say that ATC are responsible for the safe conduct of a flight? I am pretty sure the last time I looked (Someone can probably quote me the reference, I'm to lazy to look myself) it said that the Pilot in Command was the person responsible for safe conduct of the flight, from startup to shut down. He wasn't under positive control, he was being offered advice and information. |
I love your total ego and confidence that you would never make a similar error and therefore not need more modern and safer procedures.
Why don't you comment on the current military restriction on civilian pilots being prevented from planning over Willy? |
And Rat. Why do you reckon BASI made no recommendation about using the radar more effectively to prevent a repeat of that type of accident?
Could it be fixed views re the existing regs like you have? |
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