ASIC – what measurable safety benefit?
 

I have just received notification from CASA that I have to renew my ASIC. As my pilot friends, John and Martha King, in the USA don’t require anything equivalent (in the USA you simply need your pilot licence and any photographic identification, say, a driver licence), I wonder what the real safety advantage is here?

In the time I have had an ASIC I have never been able to work out how the security is improved by having it. In my recent flight to New Guinea in my LongRanger, I flew up the east coast (what a nightmare). I usually have to land the LongRanger well away from the terminal for refuelling so there is no chance of getting a cold drink or going to the dunny. Even at Rocky (I think it was) I saw a military helicopter parking near the terminal and asked if I could park there – the Controller said “no way, that’s a military apron!”.

If the home of “September 11” with fifteen times the number of aeroplanes doesn’t require an ASIC, should we consider removing the requirement here and then spending the money on something that will really improve safety - like more flying hours for private pilots?

I look forward to your thoughts.

Other than a discount at times on terminal food / coffee no advantage at all

the only measurable safety benefit is the financial safety of the issuing agency.


even Millitary ID's are no longer acceptable. its asic or nothing :ugh:

even Millitary ID's are no longer acceptable. its asic or nothing

Unless things have changed in the past week, that doesn't seem kosher to me.

Can you cite evidence to support your statement ?

the question in parliament at the time was how do we know that we don't have terrorists among the australian pilot community.
to meet this parliamentary requirement all pilots had to undergo security screening and the Air Side Identification Card was morphed into the Aviation Security Identification Card.

ok we all passed the security checks.

the legislation required a pilot to hold the card. so I did.
the legislation never required the card to be renewed unless flying to particular airports. I have never renewed mine.

the apparatus surrounding the ASIC is utter paranoid delusional nonsense.
it needs to be removed, deleted and never revisited.
it is utter balderdash.

It goes without saying Dick that you are 100% correct.

One might think that it would be required at Tullamarine or Mascot for example as it proves if you have the right to be airside, but it doesn't. The ASIC is useless in this regard, has no magnetic strip or chip, so they need their own security system anyway, so the only people that might possibly need it, don't need it anyway!

A pilots licence with photo issued by CASA would be ample.
Is the answer an AVID? We already have these... so perhaps that's the answer. Unfortunately it won't be a cheaply available card and will still cost what it does now I can only assume.

If they want to scan our person as we fly out of Paraburdoo or some other tin-pot airport, that's fine, we show our licence, get scanned and move through. We don't need an ASIC to do this!

Has it improved safety? Doubt it, because access to any security controlled airport is controlled by personnel, not by the card. It's not an access card so it has no value.

The police security checks are a joke also. Convicted criminals possess ASIC cards so what is the point? I know of a rapist (time served) and an arsonist (time served) that have ASIC cards, so I struggle to see who they are stopping from obtaining them by use of the security check....

Can someone estimate what the cost would be each year. Does anyone know how many are issued?

my nipper tried to get access to the aircraft through the security screening.
"you'll have to go through full screening."
"I'm the pilot of the aircraft."
"sorry you'll have to go through full screening."
(he was wearing full company uniform)

so the nipper walked out of the terminal around the side to the GA pilots gate punched in the secret 'known only to pilots gate code' and walked out to the aeroplane.

security it seems is 100% populated by wankers.

The original concept, (and I have the pamphlet), was to have an ASIC for access to the security controlled portion of an airport which I understood included the terminal area and fuel installations and any other sensitive areas as designated. By this reckoning a tin of paint outlining those areas would have alerted pilots where they could or couldn't go.

Then DOTARS offered airport operators cash to improve safety and stipulated that ALL the airside was to be considered a security restricted zone.

One is wise not to stand between a Local Government official and a tin of cash and we all know what happened.

Fences that ran nowhere or for a few meters either side of The Oodnadatta track airport terminal worked to keep kangaroos in and the whole scheme showed similarities with the education building revolution put together by more recent government.

The AVID/ ASIC idea was ridiculed, cash was taken and "boogey boards" and bag chuckers came to the front page of newspapers.

And people, the only way you'll get rid of it is to figure a way the politicians and bureaucrats can think it was their idea and the original proponents can walk away without loosing face and with rare dignity.

The ball is in your court..............:* Good luck!

frank it was one of labors stupid ideas and we voted them out.
smoke screen enough?

I can't believe the blase attitude of you, my fellow aviators.

I think the value of the ASIC program speaks for itself - since the ASIC was made mandatory there has been not a single aeroplane flown into a tall building in Australia.

(...except of course poor old Tim in Orange :8 ).

I wouldn't mind an ASIC so much if it was good for five or ten years, but the hassle of getting a new one every two years is way too painful.

In the past I've kept using the old one for a couple of years beyond expiry because no one checks the date anyway.

Depends where you're standing....
 

The people who thought up the ASIC, and those that benefit from issuing them will tell you its been a great success. See !... since its introduction NO pilot has used the aircraft/been involved in a terrorism event. :ok: So it works..!!

But equally, in the past decades prior to ASIC intro there were none either.

Equally bizarre is that folk who drive 20 tonne trucks don't have to have one.

And in the States, home of 9/11 the GA pilot fraternity were asked to be part of the security solution, not deemed to be part of the security problem.!

But alas the Rum Corps in Regulatastan couldnt handle the US approach, it would give them no control, hence yet another bureaucracy; growing and wasting... as they do.

OK if anyone does have to have a security check, how about a continuous clearance card...invalidated on any breach*.
Renewals is just a $$s pick up to pay the wages,bonuses, perks etc.

* should you plunge yr aircraft into side of a building and break a few windows this card will be cancelled.

To get more flying hours and experience for PPLs...the lesser costs of RAA and self maintained aircraft is the only solution. VH PPLs are just shot down because of the costs of insurance, maintenance shops and parts mark-ups...hence RAA, SAAA and etc.

Basic maintenance of your own aeroplane should be a part of learning to fly, just like in the good old days when maintenance DIY was a must.

Perhaps its time to revisit and revise Schedule 8 to allow more to be done by owners/ PPLs to help keep costs in check. Its not rocket science.

Like all forms of security it's only as secure/good as the weakest link. The ASIC is just a bureaucratic machine that keeps people employed & makes the idiot rule makers feel good therefore justifying their shallow jobs. It has zero effect where security is concerned it only causes grief & suspicion!

Take Tulla for EG. This place is a joke!!! Has miles of chain-mess fence around it of which a good proportion is obscured by native trees/plants put there for aesthetics when it was built. Any fool can get Airside with just a cheap $2 pair of wire cutters at night as it's pitch black in places to the Nth of the drome well hidden behind trees:ugh:Dozens of cars park right opposite these accessible area's on the grass/dirt off the side of the road awaiting their friends/family to arrive on a flight, no one would know who's who in cars out there of a night time, terrorists would have a field day!

Here's a typical day that had me really bemused. At YMAY one fine sunny day years ago doing a non urgent retrieval in the old Beech. Had to park right outside the new terminal (new back then). The KFC machine stuck out like a dogs dick & I couldn't be mistaken as I/we had to wear 'monkey suits' with the appropriate badges showing whom I/we where. I finally got into the terminal to use the loo's & buy a drink awaiting the patient & para's. The security goon/s could obviously see who I was as they couldn't miss the noise of the KFC machine when I arrived. I found my way accidentally into a 'secure' area trying to get back out to the plane, result??................I was 'caught' & showed zero respect despite having the oll knowing all useless ASIC dangling from my monkey suit, yep the ASIC sure is useful......for food discounts only !!!!:ugh:

Don't get me started on the total idiotic requirement to go thru screening on the way to the crew briefing room!:ugh:My fold-able umbrella in the bottom of my fright bag (which periodically get pulled out for inspection) has huge potential to Mame & kill providing I throw the cockpit crash axe out the window as that could really cause an injury......to me!!


'Dick' this subject comes up from time to time (the usefulness or lack thereof) of the ASIC. You of all people should know about such matters than us mere mortals who have had very little involvement in aviation at the bottom.


Wmk2

Dick

Very valid question. Someone show us the safety benefits !!

Dick you are just the man to lead a campaign to have this ridiculous impost of time and money removed. Or as someone else said at least made renewable every 5 or 10 years so the impost is not so bad.

Pay the $216, pay for the passport photos, go bug a JP - Every 2 years. For what?

All a complete waste. Every pimple face 16 year old at Maccas at the big terminals has one. Somehow the "security" of having an ASIC is diluted IMHO.

Cheers

PS - Don't expect ANYTHING in Rocky !!

Since when have CAsA, Dotars or any of them been interested in "safety".

Their only focus is $$$$$ and how much of it they can fleece us poor suckers out of. Safety benefit??.haw haw, I'll bet you it was never even discussed.

Love to know who the shareholders are of these companies that process our ASIC applications or provide airport security, which in itself creates a security risk. May answer why they exist.
Try terminal two Syd. 6am most mornings, the sheep pens in front of the Xray machines creates a target rich environment for your friendly local suicide bomber to wipe out three or four hundred all penned up nicely in a tight compact group, and jeez he could get into the middle of that group without passing any form of security.

What I don't understand is having to get a jp to resign for my passport and drivers Licence which haven't changed in the last two years to be re issued with a new card not to mention the time that I wasted running around trying to sort all the paperwork out

Credit where it's due, but I think one J Anderson was up to his neck in the implementation, but I could be wrong again............ as usual.

Over to you peterc0000000005:E

Well folks, we now have a federal government that is looking to cut the cost of bureaucracy, write to your MP and the transport minister and express your thoughts on the matter. I don't think they read PPRuNe much.

Makes a few pollies and bureaucrats feel safe --- because they can tell any inquest/investigation that they have "done something" --- so whatever the catastrophe was --- it was not "their fault".
Tootle pip!!

Usually when somebody suggests this, there is no measurable way of seeing if it works or not. May I suggest the poster write a pro-forma letter where one can cut and paste putting their details and posting off to their MP. A letter header should make all recipients aware that there are more than one author involved.

Cutting the cost of bureaucracy and no measurable safety benefit may be dot points without offending opposites.

Forget your MP and the Minister.

Write to the non-major party aligned Senators (including Senators elect).

OK but someone do a pro-forma.:)

Oh come on Dick - take the blinkers off! :E

Have we had a terrorist attack since the introduction of ASICs? :confused:

I rest my case! :ok:

Dr :8

All this happens three days after sending off my renewal !

Regarding the cost of management Dick... Do you think that we can assume that it is self suficient given that a contracted mob in Merimbula do most and RAA-Aus do some also (at a lesser price by the way)?

But given other examples of mis-management, perhaps CASA are topping up the program but it will be difficult to find out that figure.

I would suggest there was a huge implementation cost that will never be recovered also.

An FOI request perhaps?

Julia Gillard was the politician who beat the government of the day into creating this asic bull****. I think listening to her rabbit on in parliament about pilots and the threat they posed started my deep and abiding hatred of the woman.

Good wind up.

Not a great wind up, but just over the margin of good.:rolleyes:

It's a crock. Go take a wander around almost any major Australian airports GA area. You will see all and sundry coming and going, wandering airside, no ASICs or VIC's and often with no 'ASIC holder' in close proximity. Then you have dodgy fences easily breached, fences with crap stacked up against them or trees growing through them.
My point. The system simply isn't secure, yet talk to the airport operators and they will tell you that the clowns from the OTS want you to show them how you have risk assessed threats from bio terrorism and MANPADS (don't laugh), at Townsville or Broome airport!!! Yeah right, as if :ugh:

There you have it Dick, truly a passionate response from your fellow aviators.

Give a pollie a point to score in the removal of this disease and it will happen.

The reason we have these and the rest of the bureaucratic crap imposed on aviation is because we accept it without so much as a pip.

Maybe an optional response is for everyone to hand their ASIC in?

Isn't the ASIC requirement just an expression/consequence of involuntary servitude?

Twice I certified my own ASIC and used 10 year old photos.

I got younger each time.

Never questioned by the issuer. As long as you don't reuse the same photo it seems your ok.

I did it as a joke and I was very surprised when it passed.

Security my arse!

While I share everyone's pain re asic renewals the fact is its in the regs and not going anywhere.
Also regardless of what you fly ra Aus ga ect you must have a current asic to exercise the privileges of your pilots license
So if you fly without one your operating illegally

ASIC was a solution looking for a problem. Or rather a government bureaucracy looking for a role.

This year marks my 40th anniversary flying. In 40 years the number of incidents of aircraft theft / sabotage that I can recall can be counted on the fingers of one hand. There was never a justification in historical fact.

At the time, I read the risk analysis paper prepared by the Australian public service that was used to justify the introduction of ASIC's. And I read the equivalent US document. The Australian paper was about 2 pages and concluded we needed fences & ASIC cards. The US document went through each sector of GA individually and concluded that aside from screening student pilots so that terrorists can get training to conduct a 9/11 event and putting in some controls on agricultural spraying so it can't be used to spread biological agents, that there was little risk in GA and it didn't justify the cost & burden of additional measures.

An argument could be mounted for ASIC's if it was an integrated system that meant something. But try and use your ASIC as proof of identity anywhere outside of an airport.

Furthermore, the airport fences that we have paid millions of dollars for are a farce. Most (if not virtually all) can be circumvented by undoing bolts with pliers and a shifter; or getting the gate code which have become easily available; or just walking further down the fence where it turns back into 3 strand wire.

ASIC is an impediment to legitimately getting around and it raises costs. But there is not a shred of evidence that suggests that it is either required or delivered any positive results.

Recently I met a refueller at a significant regional airport that services a significant level of RPT whose ASIC had been out of date for a number of years. He continued to wear it without question. Exactly who are we kidding?

How many ASIC cards are on issue? Qantas has 33,000 employees. CASA say there are 60,000 pilots licences of various grades. Its not hard to imagine that there are 100,000 cards on issue x $200 each. That's a $20m impost on industry for no demonstrable benefit.

September 11
 

You all seem to be ignoring the fact that September 11 has re-occurred exactly 12 times since 2001.

I want to know what the government is doing about THAT.

Yes it is a joke. I used the same photo for 6 years.

I have used the same photo previously but this time got pinged for it.

So yep, of for new photos and another JP got hassled. For what benefit? I told them I have the same shirt and glasses...........:ugh:

1985 blast from the past! YBBN and the mad Yugoslav
 

Oh dear, have we all forgotten 1985 and the mad Yugoslav at the old Brisvegas airport? Hell, this incident would be well remembered by the Townsville and Brisbane refuellers! A refuellers worst nightmare of somebody pinching his shiny tanker and holding the world to ransom! How dare he do that? The madman could have found the supply of Vodka minis and Hustlers behind the cabin seat!
Besides only fuel companies retain that privilege of holding others to ransom :E

The loony commandeered a tanker and a whirlybird that day (jeez, that could have been your chopper Dick?). I was on shift that day and recall taking up a prime viewing spot from one of the freight sheds, later taking a spot upstairs in the nice dark cosy bar and scoffing a few ales with some of the boys before being booted out of the terminal by the sheriffs!

Good times, great days :ok: Would an ASIC have prevented the shenanigans that day? Doubt it.

I wonder now that Skippy made it all the way to the Melb drome pharmacy without any formal ID ( I know none is needed but where are the security goons anyway?) whether the ASIC will extend to all species on this planet (Pollies not on the list of course) And where is Mat Hammond? (4 those old ennuf to know whom I'm talking about here):)
Poor Skip having to endure that madhouse just to get some medication after being hit by a car somewhere around the drome, what's this world coming to?:E


Wmk2

Don't forget this monumental security failure in 2007 The Chaser enters APEC Security Zone
ASIC is even less effective than these clowns.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._apec_pass.jpg

An ASIC is not a means nor guarantee of entry. It is only an indication to another that you have passed certain government mandated background checks. You still require legitimate reasons to be where you want to be. Many people think that just because they have an ASIC they can go wherever they want on an airport but that is simply not so. The government for it's own bureaucratic reasons (and I certainly don't agree with the whole ASIC rigmarole) has made the requirements for holding an ASIC to be just one part of access to certain areas.

Fizzy one.
 

Rubbish!

Who told you that?:rolleyes: