Request 10 second delay..???
 

Seems to be a very common call from a certain flying school at AF lately.

Only reason I can think of is someone started a trend for short field take-offs, but granted, although similar to a CFM56, surely a mighty Lycoming IO-360-L2A doesn't take that long to spool up?:rolleyes::cool:

I used to fly the school I assume you are referring to. The ten second delay is designed to allow for a bit of margin, realistically five seconds or less would suffice.

It often occurs that an instructor will be advising the student of things to look for, watch out for, or just general advice. Really...does it make that much of a difference? I'd be annoyed if they did plenty of glide approaches. As they slow everything down.

How does a glide slow anything down?:confused:
You don't turn in from the same downwind position as a powered approach.

Agreed five seconds or less does suffice, so no need for the call. It just makes Tower's job more difficult. They're having to make sure the next aircraft isn't too far around base/final to allow the lineup and wondering what the delay is for.

Yeah, I know, it's just a few seconds, so why not just line up like every one else does. If things are tight, Tower will tell you it's for an immediate.

As for advising the student etc, the student should know what to look for before they go out. That's what briefing is for. It's a 172, it isn't that hard.:cool:

If its tight, tower can deny. Simple. They know what's going on and will allow it if possible.

Why don't you ask one of them instead of casting aspersions on a public forum? :rolleyes:

AF is a training aerodrome. I have no idea about what school you are reffering to or which school you come from but this seems like a very petty and insignificant point to make.

Is ten seconds too much to ask... jeez.

A clearance for takeoff implies a rolling start at AF. So if someone requests a 10 second delay shows good airmanship. Who cares. It's either approved or denied.
It is a training environment after all and I'm sure the instructor or PIC has a valid reason for the request. Does it really matter?

Valid points with which I agree.

/thread

Not saying its not a good idea, but where's this written? Or is it just a thing locals do?

Besides STOL practice, why else would you need ten seconds stationary? Hopefully it is not reading checklists? :}

Stacko,
Yep, someone from tower did ask today. Seems they have been scratching their heads lately too.

Never heard this call made as routinely at any other aerodrome as I'm hearing it at AF lately.

CS,
I think the words "immediate" or "keep it rolling" are actually used when this situation is required, but happy to stand corrected if AIP or ERSA FAC as to why AF is different to every other aerodrome in Australia can be quoted.:E
On the contrary, I would suggest checking static rpm limits on a C172 would actually be checked most accurately at as slow a speed as possible, standstill preferrably, but it still doesn't take that long.

Airwolf,
"So there" does not advance your argument.

I'm sure they aren't sitting there for 10s pulling their d&$cks. So there is obviously a reason. Some Company SOP's and aircraft require certain checks to be completed upon line up - if required one must request the delay and any incurred delay from atc due to such request.

I am confused. When I learned to fly I was taught a glide approach was done by turning base in the normal way (maintaining altitude) then when you think you can glide in from level base, just close the throttle and assume the gliding attitude.

It is not a practice forced landing from downwind where ATC needs to know for separation spacing. No need to tell ATC since it is a normal circuit turn on to base. If due to traffic ahead you are unable to turn base in the normal position, then extend downwind as needed while maintaining level flight until on final. Then when you reckon you can make it from there, close the throttle and commence the glide. The aim of the exercise is to practice gliding to land as against a powered approach to land. It is not a forced landing practice which is normally conducted in the training area.

Holding on the brakes for a short field take off is unnecessary. It causes unnecessary propeller stress due bending moment and the extra take off ground run distance from a closed throttle take off (assuming less than five seconds from idle RPM to full throttle) to a full power take off on the brakes, is practically un-measurable.

Makeithappencapt.

It ain't in the ERSA. I checked. :8

MCKES - please please tell me we don't have a flying school SOP that requires 10 seconds lined up at the threshold? If so, the I think the CFI who dreamt up that SOP has been doing what you so eloquently described.

It sounds like completing the before takeoff checklist to me when stationary so the student doesn't drive into the grass trying to read Strobes.... ON Transponder.....ON Heading.....CHECK Takeoff clearance....CHECK. :mad:

I know. So did I.:ok::E

Question, Sheppy.

Why does Mr Cessna specify a static RPM limit (both max and min) for a fixed pitch propellor if you are not supposed to check the max throttle rpm at a static position?

Too low, not enough torque being produced from the engine to drive the propellor.:uhoh:

Too high, not enough torque being produced from the propellor, therefore not enough thrust being produced either. (Think of the lift/drag relationship and apply that to the prop blade. It just gets renamed thrust/torque.):eek:

Basic check that should be conducted as a part of every takeoff with a fixed pitch prop.

Eg.
RPM in range (release brakes)
Engine parameters in range
Airspeed increasing

But again, I stress it shouldn't take more than one or two seconds to verify.

As for glide approaches (ie. non standard circuits), they are advised and approved as you will normally be turning a much closer base than during a normal approach. At AF on Rwy 10L for example, they may specify to remain clear of helicopter area Alpha as they expect you to be turning almost immediately passing the downwind end of the runway.
Agreed we do use them to tune the student's round out, but why would you not practise a glide approach at a known location so that you become used to what the aircraft is capable of and can then apply the picture and performance to an unknown location (ie the training area)?
The whole idea of a PFL is to fly something as close to a circuit pattern as possible because you are (hopefully) aware of the aircraft's performance in that scenario.:ok:

Really!
Is this what the instructing world has degraded itself to?

A ready call is just that.You are supposed to be ready.An instructor should be able to give any take-off patter during the roll on and line up process without delaying the take-off power application.

In the real world rolling take-offs are the norm and not the exception. Do we no longer train for the real world? If the checklist or SOP requires 10 seconds on the runway, a review is called for. 'Ready' means just that - all checks done and dusted with the possible exception of a couple of minor items that should be committed to memory and easily done on the move e.g. strobes and transponder could surely be memorised by anyone with enough smarts to be flying. What next for the checklist? Throttle open, stick pull back, check houses getting smaller?
As for checking static RPM, isn't that what the run-up bay is used for?
There is already a big thread elsewhere with some good (and not-so-good) advice on how checklists should be developed and used, and indeed whether in single-pilot operations on simple aircraft using basic memonics is not actually safer for pre-takeoff and pre-landing phases of flight.

Zoomy, not saying you need to sit there for a huge period, but just explaining why the limit exists. The degrading comes through instructors who only care about building hours and not producing the highest standard of pilot possible.

Example, how many people check carb heat by seeing a drop and that's all?
What does a gradual increase in rpm mean?

How many note the ambient MP before starting a CSU equipped aircraft?
How many inches drop from this figure would be normal and how much would be unacceptable?

Mightn't matter in Cairns, but this stuff will be an issue in Hobart in winter. I will make no apology for insisting my students are aware of these things.:cool:

If it's the flight school with all the a's, it's just so they can stand on the brakes and run the engine up. It's probably a bit excessive, but it doesn't hurt either so I don't really see what the problem is.

What a complete & utter WANK, request a 10 second delay? For chrissakes :ugh:

It's for a short field takeoff. As an earlier poster said, a clearance to takeoff assumes a rolling run. That's what tower bases their separation on, anything different would f$&k that up.

In reality it's never 10 seconds, but it has to cater for every student no matter how efficient the instructors patter is.

Folks ( And Jack please note)

A brief look at AIP Gen 3.4, page 51 may be enlightening to some of you as to the formal situation ---- and any thing to do with takeoff and landing clearances ( and clearances in general) should be very formal.

(1) If you need time on the runway, the call is" (callsign), request lineup (X seconds)", X denoting the time required on the runway.

Jack, if the operation requires it --- and this is up to the pilot in command, it is quite correct to nominate the time needed, but the local phraseology needs smartening up.

(2) If you have called ready at the holding point, a clearance for takeoff can, but does not require a rolling takeoff, but the time lined up must be minimal.

(3) If the tower requires a rolling takeoff , the clearance to the aircraft at the holding point will be " (Call sign) cleared for immediate takeoff".

If you want to let the tower know you can do a rolling takeoff, you can say '(Call sign) ready immediate" as you approach or are at the holding point.

In this area, the Australian AIP and Australian practice is generally consistent with ICAO Doc. 9432 (and Doc. 4444 and Annex X), which is also referred to in the AIP as the source of phraseologies not contained in the Australian AIP.

Based on what is reported here, both the flying school CFI and instructors, and the tower staff, need a standards refresher.

The above fundamental phraseology is nothing new, indeed it has remained unchanged for at least as long as I have been flying, which is over 50 years.

Tootle pip!!

Another non standard call that has crept in, pending clearance springs to mind. Someone heard someone say it and thought it was cool. Now every man and his cessna is saying it.

Pretty sure there was a thread regarding this on here a lil while ago.

Sometimes a ten second delay is what's needed to get the job done in a training environment Jack. Just the way it is.

It used to specify "rolling start" in the GAAP section of AIP. Disappeared when "D" came along (giant leap forward!) and the whole chapter was deleted.
Not just short fields wanting the 10 seconds at AF anymore - no real problem, just means more waiting when it's a bit tight.

WRONG!

AIP says: REQUEST LINE-UP [REQUIRE (required number of seconds delay in lined-up position before departure) SECONDS ON RUNWAY]

:rolleyes:

Since when?

nice one ozzie mozzie! :D

Come on............lead, dood, the only time I've asked for a 10 second delay (and I have) is when I've ****** up & haven't latched a shoulder harness or door.

You blokes whinge when you get sent round cos some clown requests a 10 second delay.

Sit quietly and count 1 banana, 2 banana etc. 10 seconds is a friggin' long time in ATC land. If your brutha pilot requests a 10 second delay, don't whinge :ugh:

Not debating that if time is required for checks, the call can be used.

Just questioning why after years (and I've been operating at AF for over fifteen of them now) of every other operator being able to conduct SFTO without needing to requst time for what is essentially a three second operation, we are suddenly hearing this request on almost every second departure (it would seem).

Even flying turboprops (that do require time to spool up) out of short strips, I've yet to hear this call made in the real world for this purpose.:rolleyes:

Amazing awhole thread about nothing, thanks Ozzie Mossie for injecting some sanity into this.

When all is said and done isnt the object of the exercise to communicate clearly to the talking traffic lights your intentions without resorting to Swahili.

Bloggs,
Please explain what is different about what I said, and what the AIP says, and what is so wrong about what I said ---said in plain language, so even you can understand.

Do you understand that the phrases in the AIP are not the only phrases that may be used, as is now recognized in Australia, as part of ICAO compliance.

As to "ready immediate", I guess this is just a matter of your limited experience and knowledge of the relevant ICAO Docs., for which I have provided a reference, and related advisory material --- particularly the recommendations for plain language communications, and commons sense use by experienced pilots.

Precisely the point made in the ICAO docs.

Tootle pip!!

Unbelievable. Read what you wrote and what AIP says. Oh don't bother, I'll point it out again: you're supposed to say "REQUIRE 10 SECONDS ON RUNWAY. Get it now?

Actually, I did hop onto the net and have a good look. I couldn't find a current copy of the ICAO doc without paying for it (not worth it) but I did find old copies, and also the current CAP 413 from the poms. Nowhere is "Ready Immediate" mentioned. I therefore assume that this is a dreamt-up call by somebody who thought it was a good idea at the time (a bit like the call that started this thread) that has assumed quasi-official status like so many other calls in use these days. So how about putting your money where your mouth is and showing us where this call is in any even semi-official publication?

Swahili to some, but actually fairly straightforward. Is it so hard to say "require 10 seconds on the runway". Better to do a bit of study and learn/say the right words (learn it once and it will stick) than blubbering, spluttering, umming, arrring and generally clogging up the airwaves with verbal diarrhoea.

Are you ready for immediate T/O is quite often used by controllers at YPJT clearly seeking info to help in separation when on only 1 runway.

Part of the clear and concise communication construct, in the 50 years I have held a license I must confess this is the silliest discussion I have witnessed.

Yes and I used to hear 'keep it rolling, cleared for take-off' at AF, not so much lately though

I generally always request a 10 second delay so that I can find a good playlist on my ipod before takeoff because I don't like flying without some mad beats cranking.

That takes you 10 seconds? You must be Gen X or previous?? :=